CIS-A2K/IRC meeting 2011-07-28
CIS-A2K (Centre for Internet and Society - Access to Knowledge) is a campaign to promote the fundamental principles of justice, freedom, and economic development. It deals with issues like copyrights, patents and trademarks, which are an important part of the digital landscape.
If you have a general proposal/suggestion for Access to Knowledge team you can write on the discussion page. If you have appreciations or feedback on our work, please share it on feedback page.
[20:53] <ALX09> @Hmundol: The students surprisingly didn't have a lot of questions. The faculty prof. H.P. Shinde was very responsive and he'll let us know when we can present to the other division.
[20:54] <Parag> Welcome Srikeit
[20:54] <Hmundol> Hey Srikeit. Sorry I missed your call.
[20:54] <Srikeit> Hi Parag
[20:54] <Hmundol> @Srikeit: Can you help logging the IRC when it starts in about 10 min? Do you have rights? Theo usually helps out - and he's 100% reliable - but he's travelling and I can't see him on so not sure if he can make it.
[20:54] <Parag> :)
[20:55] <Srikeit> Hmundol : Working on it
[20:55] <Hmundol> Hi Srikanthlogic
[20:55] <wasimmogal2007> Gr8 work Alex and team , Sorry i couldnt make it as i was not well but will get back on the field asap....
[20:55] <srikanthlogic> Hmundol: hi
[20:55] <PJ__> Alex: Were you able to tell whether they understood the program?
[20:55] <srikanthlogic> Srikeit: Hello
[20:55] <Srikeit> Hi srikanthlogic
[20:55] == Odisha1 [Odisha1@wikimedia/odisha1] has quit []
[20:56] <wasimmogal2007> Hey Srikeit how was the editing sunday
[20:56] <ALX09> @PJ: Well to be very frank, I was kinda disappointed by the response from the students. They intently listened to everything me and Ram had to say. But they weren't very interactive.
[20:56] == Odisha1 [Odisha1@wikimedia/odisha1] has joined #wikimedia-office
[20:56] <Parag> Editing Sunday was phenomenal this time
[20:57] <Srikeit> wasimmogal2007 : Good :)
[20:57] <ALX09> @PJ: They didn't seem to be either excited or curious about the program.
[20:57] <Hmundol> ALX09: What was the male-female split in the seession you conducted?
[20:57] <ALX09> @PJ: I'm worried they're just treating this as just another college assignment.
[20:57] <ALX09> @PJ: Or alternatively, we may not have presented it to them appealingly enough.
[20:57] <Parag> many people contributed for shindes umbrella..... finally we tried weaving it
[20:58] <ALX09> @PJ: But I think there werent any notable mistakes from our side
[20:58] <Hmundol> @ALX09: in case you want to send a private message to PJ, you'll have to put in the full name, as in @PJ__ and not just @PJ... fyi
[20:58] <Hmundol> Hi Mayur.
[20:58] <Hmundol> Glad you could make it.
[20:58] <PJ__> Alex: Hm. Could just be a tough crowd. Hopefully in the second session you'll be able to excite them.
[20:59] <Mayur> Hi, Hisham
[20:59] <ALX09> @Hmundol: Oh not to worry. I want everyone to know
[20:59] <deepesh2255> Hi,Hisham
[20:59] <Hmundol> @ALX09 Cool
[20:59] <Parag> hi deepesh !
[20:59] <Hmundol> Hey Deepesh.
[20:59] <ALX09> @Hmundol: I thought we werent going to have any sort of beurocracy here! :P
[20:59] <deepesh2255> hey parag
[20:59] <PJ__> Hey Deepesh.
[20:59] <deepesh2255> hey pj
[20:59] <Srikeit> Hmundol : Can we start in 2 minutes? Just setting up the logging.
[20:59] <a_r_n> deepesh2255: hey, hows goa ?
[20:59] <Hmundol> @ALX09: There's none! Just wanted to make sure you knew the minor detail. But there is no bureacracy.
[20:59] <deepesh2255> its awesome
[20:59] <Hmundol> @Srikeit: Yes pls
[21:00] <ALX09> @Hmundol : and about your last question. The male/female split must have been about 80/20.
[21:00] <deepesh2255> chatting from tittos
[21:00] <Hmundol> @ALX09: and why did you choose to send that privately?
[21:00] <ALX09> @Hmundol: Just kiddin!
[21:00] <PJ__> Alex: That's funny. In Abhijit's class it's about 50/50 which I'm told is rare for an engineering college.
[21:00] <Hmundol> @ALX09: hahaha
[21:00] <ALX09> I'm sorry....I'm new to IRC
[21:00] <ALX09> I dont know how this all works
[21:00] <Hmundol> @ALX09: No stress buddy!
[21:01] <ALX09> lol
[21:01] <Hmundol> Actually, to all CAs, I suggested you guys come on a little early just to get a hang of IRC. It's really like any chat engine - but just needs a little getting used to. Glad quite a few came on early.
[21:01] <a_r_n> ALX09: just type few initials of the person u want to send the message and press tab
[21:01] <Srikeit> @Hmundol : Good to go, chief :)
[21:01] <a_r_n> the name ll automatically come
[21:02] <Hmundol> @Srikeit: thanks, buddy.
[21:02] <Hmundol> Hey all, it's 9pm IST so let's begin. I'll set a little context and then throw it open.
[21:02] <ALX09> In anycase, I and Ram were discussing that we think that the Wikipedia presentations we give to students need to be revamped.
[21:02] <ALX09> okay
[21:02] <Hmundol> First of all, apologies for the delayed Monthly IRC. We usually have it on the first Thursday of every month.
[21:03] <Hmundol> By popular demand, we moved it to 9pm instead of 8pm - which I was told is more convenient to many.
[21:03] <Mayur> yaa
[21:03] <Hmundol> This IRC, I thought we'd talk about the WIkipedia India Education Program.
[21:03] <Parag> ok
[21:03] <Hmundol> We have a bunch of Campus Ambassadors - who we call CAs for short - on today.
[21:03] <arjunaraoc> Hi all
[21:04] <Hmundol> There's Wasim, Parag, Arnavc and a_r_n.
[21:04] <Hmundol> There's also PJ__ and Srikeit who are supporting the program as Fellows.
[21:04] <Hmundol> CAs: there's a bunch of guys on and I'm sure the'll introduce themselves as we go along.
[21:05] <AroundTheGlobe> Hiya
[21:05] <Hmundol> ...ooopppps, I forget to mention Deepesh who is also a CA, and I hope he hasn't stormed out coz I didn't mention his name! :-)
[21:05] <Srikeit> yello
[21:05] <Hmundol> Hey AroundTheGlobe
[21:05] <a_r_n> AroundTheGlobe: welcome back :)
[21:05] <srikanthlogic> AroundTheGlobe: hey
[21:05] <AroundTheGlobe> sorry Iv got an eye infection so had to go off, cant stay too long
[21:05] <ALX09> @Hmundol: lol you forgot to mention me
[21:06] <Hmundol> Maybe PJ__ you could talk a little about the overall summary of where we stand? ...and then I thought it'd be useful for the non-CA community folks to chat with the CA community folks about their experiences and for the CAs to raise any questions, concerns, suggestions, etc.
[21:06] <Hmundol> ....AND WE HAVE ALEX TOO! ...i'm getting old!
[21:06] <PJ__> Hmundol: Absolutely.
[21:06] <Hmundol> PJ: all yours
[21:06] <wasimmogal2007> Hey All I am Wasim Mogal, Campus Ambassador at pune currently helping out students at College of Engineering Pune. Its been fun so far....Long way to go !!!!
[21:07] <AroundTheGlobe> hi wasim
[21:07] <Hmundol> Hi Arjun. CAs: I'll keep introducing people as I see them.
[21:07] <Hmundol> Arjun is President of the Chapter and is based in Bangalore.
[21:07] <PJ__> Well I should say first that the response from the colleges (faculty and students alike) here in Pune has been extraordinary.
[21:07] <wasimmogal2007> Hi @aroundthe globe....
[21:07] <Hmundol> AroundTheGlobe is a community member from Mumbai - and is helping out on the WikiConference.
[21:07] <pradx> hi all. Have been in the background listening to the conversation
[21:08] <Hmundol> Pradx is a community member from Mumbai and is also helping out on the WikiConference.
[21:08] <PJ__> I know we came into Pune thinking we would have 4 - 5 professors and maybe 200 - 300 students.
[21:08] <Hmundol> Srikanthlogic: ...is a community member from, I want to say, Hyderabad - but correct me if I am wrong.
[21:08] <Parag> hok
[21:09] <Hmundol> @PJ__: keep going
[21:09] <PJ__> Presently we have approximately 20 professors from 4 colleges and almost 1,000 students!
[21:09] <wasimmogal2007> Hurray !!!!
[21:09] <AroundTheGlobe> WOW!
[21:09] <a_r_n> PJ__: and Hmundol cheers
[21:09] <fschulenburg> Congratulations!
[21:09] <pradx> congrats!
[21:09] <Hmundol> Hey, Frank. hadn't seen you come in.
[21:09] <Parag> Thats almost 5 times of what was planned !
[21:09] <fschulenburg> :-)
[21:09] <AroundTheGlobe> Hisham: if these are pilot figures, the when the program goes live we should be talking in millions :)
[21:09] <PJ__> And we continue to grow. We actually added two more classes in the past 48 hours.
[21:09] <Srikeit> @fshulenburg Hey Frank :)
[21:10] <Parag> Hello Frank ..... long time we have met.
[21:10] <PJ__> AroundTheGlobe: You're absolutely right.
[21:10] <fschulenburg> hi parag
[21:10] <fschulenburg> hi srikeit, hi all :-)
[21:10] <wasimmogal2007> hey frank at last u said something.....i thought there was a bot sitting for you...thanks for ur comments...
[21:10] <PJ__> Which brings me to the second point.
[21:10] <Hmundol> AroundTheGlobe: 1000 students is giving me ulcers and making me lose the remain heroic strands of hair on my head. Let's not talk anything higher!
[21:10] <pradx> Hisham: Time for another round of back of the envelope calculations.
[21:10] <Hmundol> Pradx: ha ha.
[21:11] <srikanthlogic> Hmundol: there would more people in your team and hence more stomach,hair no :P
[21:11] <pradx> I would think that on a full program roll out, we're talking about 100,000 students and about 300 professors.
[21:11] <fschulenburg> hi wasim. a bot -- that's a nice idea
[21:11] <PJ__> While we're obviously thrilled about the positive response, 1000 students is stretching our resources a bit.
[21:11] <pradx> I have only considered 100 towns in India that have 4 colleges in them at least.
[21:11] <pradx> :)
[21:12] <PJ__> And "a bit" is almost definitely an understatement.
[21:12] <fschulenburg> pradx: and I was recently talking about 10,000 students in the program by 2013. I guess i have to update my slides :-)
[21:12] <Srikeit> PJ__ : hear hear :)
[21:12] <PJ__> So we've entered what I see as a second phase of the pilot which is capacity building.
[21:12] <wasimmogal2007> arnav is busy logging off and trying some new connectivity issues....
[21:12] <pradx> fschulenberg: yes, you can quote me :)
[21:12] <Hmundol> Hey Ram
[21:12] <Parag> Welcome Ram....
[21:13] <Srikeit> Hey bishaka
[21:13] <Hmundol> Ram is also a CA, everyone.
[21:13] <ram_> hey guys!
[21:13] <PJ__> So we need to at least triple the size of the CA team.
[21:13] <pradx> hey Bishaka
[21:13] <wasimmogal2007> Hey Ram bro....as in Rambo ........Welcome....
[21:13] <bishakha> Hey! :)
[21:13] <wasimmogal2007> Hey bishakha....
[21:13] <Hmundol> Hey, to the team of CAs, Bishakha is on the Board of Trustees of the Foundation. Hi Bishakha.
[21:13] <ram_> Rambo :D
[21:13] * Tanvir waves at bishakha di too. :-)
[21:14] <bishakha> waves back
[21:14] <PJ__> We also need to create a system for managing 60 campus ambassadors so that they can organize effectively and maintain partnerships with the colleges where we have a presence.
[21:14] <Tanvir> :-)
[21:14] <wasimmogal2007> hey annieee........
[21:14] <pradx> hmundol: ever since the conference work, I have started equating CAs with Chartered Accountants.
[21:14] <fschulenburg> hi annielin
[21:14] <Srikeit> Welcome annielin and Gurmeet
[21:14] <Hmundol> H Annie, Hi Gurmeet.
[21:14] <Parag> Hi Ann !
[21:14] <annielin> hi everyone!
[21:14] <Hmundol> @pradx: HAHAHAHA. I AGREE.
[21:14] <Parag> Hello Gurmeet !!!
[21:14] <Srikeit> This is a busy meeting!
[21:14] <Gurmeet> Hi Annie... Hello everyone...!
[21:14] <wasimmogal2007> Hie Gumeet bro...
[21:14] <PJ__> So that's where we are at this point. I have another 3 weeks here in India and I hope that by the time I depart we'll be on our way toward that goal.
[21:14] <Gurmeet> Hey... Parag... Wasim...
[21:15] <PJ__> Hmundol: Did I cover the major points?
[21:15] <PJ__> All: Hello to everyone who came in while I was reporting.
[21:15] <Hmundol> PJ's number of 60 CAs comes from the new estimate of 1000 students
[21:15] <bishakha> 1000! Wow!
[21:15] <Parag> Its like we have started the CA training once again..... only Ashwin Baindur sir is being missed
[21:15] <annielin> are the 60 CA's already on board, or is that the goal?
[21:16] <a_r_n> annielin: not yet
[21:16] <Hmundol> We'll need to maintain a CA:student ratio of 1:20 so that's the number we are looking towards.
[21:16] <Hmundol> Annie: I wish. nope, that's the goal.
[21:16] <Srikeit> annielin : That's the goal still
[21:16] <PJ__> Right, that's not a number that's set in stone. I just think that 15 - 20 students per CA is reasonable.
[21:16] <srikanthlogic> PJ__: have the CA's and others started editing ? whats' their experience
[21:16] <annielin> yes, sounds about right
[21:16] <annielin> particularly if they're paired up with another CA (or multiple CAs) for the same class
[21:16] <PJ__> srikanthlogic: So far we have held the first two of our weekly Editing Sunday's sessions.
[21:17] <annielin> for example, 2 CAs for a class of 30 ppl
[21:17] <Hmundol> @PJ__: Yup
[21:17] <ALX09> @srikanthlogic: Yes we have. We're beginning to get a hang of it.
[21:17] <PJ__> This is based off of a program that was run by User:Ragesoss and a few others.
[21:17] <a_r_n> Hmundol: is this program thought upon in starting in other city or not yet ?
[21:17] <srikanthlogic> ALX09: PJ__ cool..
[21:17] <PJ__> The CA's get together on Sunday mornings to edit a new article each week.
[21:17] <Hmundol> @a_r_n: not for a few more months
[21:18] <a_r_n> Hmundol: cool.... then lets expand pune CAs team only
[21:18] <PJ__> The students haven't started editing yet (they're still getting presentations introducing them to Wikipedia), but they will soon.
[21:18] <ram_> Students have started the article selection and basic editing
[21:19] <fschulenburg> PJ__ and CAs: are all the students aware that they have to add their usernames to the coursepages?
[21:19] <Hmundol> PJ__: I presume Symbosis School of Economics will start fastest right? (in terms of student editing?) When is that likely to happen?
[21:19] <ram_> few of them asked for help on uploading images and creating sandbox
[21:19] <Parag> thats great, ram.
[21:19] <PJ__> fschulenburg: Yes.
[21:19] <fschulenburg> PJ__: thanks!
[21:19] <Gurmeet> SSE, has not updated their details on the course pages... we need to follow up
[21:20] <PJ__> fschulenburg: The students at SSE were supposed to have added their names to the class pages by now, but only a few completed that task on time.
[21:20] <Hmundol> Hey, any of CAs, you want to talk about your experiences on the Editing Sundays? ...and any stories about students/faculty members trying their hands at editing?
[21:20] <ram_> CoEP seems to be more active
[21:20] <wasimmogal2007> SSE is going gr8 ...Congrats Gurmeet and team....
[21:20] <PJ__> The SSE team will work on pushing them to get that done.
[21:20] <bishakha> hey theo!
[21:20] <Gurmeet> Yes.. PJ we will work on that...!
[21:20] <Theo10011> hiya
[21:20] <Srikeit> Hey Theo10011
[21:21] <fschulenburg> PJ__: Can you create a list of when the individual courses start editing? that would be highly valuable.
[21:21] <annielin> have the students been doing the Wikipedia tasks and assignments they've been given?
[21:21] <Parag> Editing sundays is an awesome thing to do almost all sort of things.
[21:21] == mode/#wikimedia-office [+v Hmundol] by Theo10011
[21:21] <+Hmundol> SSE is - btw - Symbiosis School of Economics. We've had an amazingly high quality response from them - in terms of the executive sanction from the director and an awesome person who is co-ordinating from their side. I really think we will get some quality articles and awesome new editors from there.
[21:22] <Parag> We have been working on editing sundays (ESs) from past 2 sundays.
[21:22] <annielin> Hmundol: fantastic
[21:22] <PJ__> fschulenburg: Absolutely. I'm currently working on a "master doc" that will include all of the key information about every class.
[21:22] <fschulenburg> PJ__: yeah!
[21:22] <+Hmundol> CoEP - for those not familiar - is the College of Engineering Pune. WE're getting close to 500 students from there. The CA team is trying it's very level best to keep up withe workload.
[21:22] <+Hmundol> Hey Theo!
[21:22] <wasimmogal2007> COEP is unstoppable....
[21:22] <Parag> The first sunday had a low response , with barely 3 -4 members contributing, but last sunday was awesome with contributions from almost everybody. :-)
[21:22] <a_r_n> wasimmogal2007: +1
[21:23] <arjunaraoc> Hi Hmundol: What kind of articles will the engineering students be creating?
[21:23] <PJ__> annielin: SSE and COEP are the only colleges that have started. SSE is behind their deadlines, but COEP seems to be going well so far.
[21:23] <+Hmundol> @arjunaraoc: Articles on engineering subjects from their curriculums.
[21:23] <ALX09> @arjunaraoc: Related to their course work.
[21:23] <a_r_n> PJ__: what about SNDT and Modern College of Engineering ?
[21:24] <+Hmundol> Hey, Gurmeet, can you or PJ, can you share the kind of articles that the SSE folks are going to be working on?
[21:24] <arjunaraoc> hmundol: alx09: has some assessment of those categories been carried out?
[21:24] <+Hmundol> ...and the can the COEP team give some illustrations?
[21:24] <PJ__> a_r_n: We are still in the process of giving the introductory presentations at SNDT. Modern is still in the planning phase.
[21:24] <+Hmundol> @arjunaraoc: That's exactly what they do when they go in for the 1-on-1 sessions with the faculty.
[21:25] <+Hmundol> SSE/COEP: just some names of some potential articles.
[21:25] <wasimmogal2007> yes the articles are related to their respective courses...more info can be found out from the project page....
[21:25] <annielin> PJ__: thanks for the info
[21:25] <+Hmundol> @annielin: Yup. book your tickets to come back to india asap. we need ya!
[21:25] <arjunaraoc> Hmundol: Was thinking that engineering articles in english might be in a good state already.
[21:25] <ALX09> @arjunaraoc: Basically, the selection of the article is mutually done by the professor and the students by themselves.
[21:25] <ram_> in CoEP on of the class is working on articles related to Computing
[21:25] <+Hmundol> @arjunaraoc: you'll be surprised. I thought so too but there is so much that can be done even there.
[21:26] <PJ__> Hmundol: At SSE they will be doing economics related articles. More specifically, in the development economics class they'll be writing about development economics.
[21:26] <Theo10011> Guys, I am having some wifi issues, I'm on my phone and I'll try to switch. Hmundol sorry for the trouble, I asked other ops to help.
[21:26] <arjunaraoc> Hmundol: look forward to following the updates
[21:26] <annielin> hmundol: we can talk more about that on our Monday call =)
[21:26] <PJ__> Hmundol: In Agribusiness and Marketing they'll be picking articles about the economics of agriculture.
[21:26] <+Hmundol> No problems, Theo! Thanks for helping out!
[21:26] <PJ__> I know that's not very descriptive. haha
[21:27] <srikanthlogic> Hmundol: something the program has by design is, if students dont like courses(which happen quite a lot in India), the contributions would also be just another assignment.. but then i would assume everyone on program is interested in course first place
[21:27] <ALX09> @arjunaraoc: Once the students have updated the articles, its then the CA's job to make sure they're according to Wikipedia guidelines, followed by grading by the professors.
[21:27] <Gurmeet> Well, at SSE there is a subject call research methodolgy and the prof. there was interested in having articles related to local Businesses in pune
[21:27] <PJ__> But these are broad subjects with a lot of possibilities.
[21:27] <Srikeit> Theo10011 : I've been logging the session :)
[21:27] <Parag> Arjuna Rao Sir,engineering articles needs to be edited as most of the articles are written by students from other universities and advanced material has been written. many a times basics are not written at all
[21:27] <ram_> till yesterday students have submitted 20+ articles, and the prof has given a go ahead to around 15
[21:27] <Theo10011> Great Srikeit, can you put it on Meta?
[21:27] <+Hmundol> @srikanthlogic: that's a great point and we don't have a ready answer. but broadly even if the subject is boring to the students, the assignment itself is interesting to many.
[21:27] <Theo10011> I'll move/correct as necessary.
[21:28] <Srikeit> Theo10011: sure
[21:28] <Theo10011> thanks.
[21:28] <bishakha> hmundol: will they edit an article individually or in teams? how does it work?
[21:28] <arjunaraoc> Parag: thanks for sharing the status. look forward to seeing the future updates[21:28] <Parag> guys, i gtg in some time, i'll get back after dinner.... Sorry !!!
[21:29] <Parag> is AWAY !
[21:29] <PJ__> bishakha: Most classes have adopted a model where each students edits his/her own article.
[21:29] <fschulenburg> hi AshLin :-)
[21:29] <AshLin> good evening
[21:29] <ALX09> @bishakha: It will be done individually.
[21:29] <bishakha> thanks, pj
[21:29] <AshLin> Hi Frank
[21:29] <+Hmundol> Hey AshLin.
[21:29] <srikanthlogic> ALX09: i think CA's should only cross check, students by themselves should adhere to wikipedia guidelines broadly
[21:29] <wasimmogal2007> Hi Ashlin...
[21:29] <AshLin> Hellp everyone
[21:29] <AshLin> Hi Wasim :)
[21:29] <bishakha> hey ashlin
[21:29] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: Hi!!
[21:29] <PJ__> Hey Ashlin!
[21:29] <AshLin> Hi Bishakha
[21:30] <AshLin> Hi SL!
[21:30] <ram_> Hi Ashwin
[21:30] <AshLin> Hi ram, long time!
[21:30] <+Hmundol> Adding to the point on who is editing, even if they are editing in groups, we are encouraging all students to have individual user names
[21:30] <ram_> indeed
[21:30] <a_r_n> arjunaraoc: check this out for more details
[21:30] <Gurmeet> Hi Bishakha, Ashwin
[21:31] <a_r_n> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Courses/Fall_2011/Indian_Banking_and_Financial_Systems_Year_2_Group_A
[21:31] <ALX09> srikanthlogic: Yeah, that what I meant.. Didn't phrase it right. But still, if a student get confused, we provide them support.
[21:31] <AshLin> i came to know that a few editors are using one id, but that was in SICSR
[21:31] * annielin has a call right now, but will continue checking back here still - will be slower in responding on here though
[21:31] <AshLin> Hi Gurmeet :)
[21:31] <arjunaraoc> will the students create new articles in their sandbox first. else they may face problems with reverts?
[21:31] <srikanthlogic> another project for B-Schools is WP:INDIAN BUSINESS -- articles for listed companies.. there are potentially 2000 articles
[21:32] <bishakha> hi gurmeet
[21:32] <AshLin> have advised the editor to segregate he has done so, Did not realise it was a larger problem
[21:32] <a_r_n> Hi AshLin welcome :)
[21:33] <a_r_n> Rangilo_Gujarati here
[21:33] <AshLin> regarding new articles, students are welcome to post a message on India board, from where we will come & mentor each article
[21:33] <AshLin> Hi Arnav
[21:34] <srikanthlogic> on another note, should the students create articles on mainspace itself with a template. that way, more eyes look into page, unlike the project subpage..
[21:35] <bishakha> guest28600: is the pune CA program following pretty much the same model as the US one? Any major adaptations?
[21:35] == mode/#wikimedia-office [+v fschulenburg] by ChanServ
[21:35] <AshLin> I do know that when Garware College guys did bird articles on userspace WikiProhject Birds asked them to work on article space
[21:35] <Theo10011> Hi fschulenburg
[21:35] <Theo10011> and annie :)
[21:35] <+fschulenburg> hi Theo10011
[21:35] <srikanthlogic> also subpages give a implicit protection.. which is not always there in real world(main space)
[21:35] <AshLin> Hi Theo
[21:35] <srikanthlogic> patrolling etc
[21:36] <AshLin> but the errors in editing dont get corrected timely
[21:36] <AshLin> timely correction increases learning pace
[21:36] <Guest28600> bishakha: It is similar to the US program. The initial scale is larger than what we saw in the US.
[21:36] <AshLin> pros & cons for eachway to go forth
[21:36] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: true
[21:37] <Abhi_> Abhishek Suryawanshi [User:AbhiSuryawanshi] here. Good Evening to all :-)
[21:37] <Guest28600> But the basic format is the same.
[21:37] <bishakha> good evening abhi
[21:37] <AshLin> Hi Abhishekh TEDX!
[21:37] <ram_> Hi Abhishek
[21:37] <arjunaraoc> srikanthlogic: Template may not protect when patrolling is done by bots.
[21:38] <srikanthlogic> also, does adding references to articles given emphasis, because thats when students actually learn :)
[21:38] <Parag> Hiabhi
[21:38] <arjunaraoc> Atleast there is worry about communication skills, hence it may be better that they start out in their sandboxes for the first new article
[21:38] <PeeJay_> Sorry, my internet was giving me trouble. I think I'm functioning now. (This is PJ by the way)
[21:38] <a_r_n> PeeJay_: ha ha ha ....... what a name :p
[21:38] <AshLin> Hi PJ :)
[21:39] <srikanthlogic> arjunaraoc: true.. also they wont loose work due to deletions
[21:39] <PeeJay_> a_r_n: haha :)
[21:39] <ram_> PJ rocks
[21:39] <PeeJay_> ram_: You're too kind. :)
[21:39] <+fschulenburg> hi Abhishek :-)
[21:39] <AshLin> a simple way for reducing any kind of bad experience as regards deletion/reversion -
[21:39] <Abhi_> :-)
[21:39] <PeeJay_> arjunaraoc: There is a counter point to the sandbox approach.
[21:39] <arjunaraoc> srikanthlogic: good point
[21:40] <AshLin> is by providing a duly referenced fact each time
[21:40] <AshLin> one fact per edit
[21:40] <PeeJay_> The folks in the academic world are used to writing something, having it reviewed, and then publishing it.
[21:40] <PeeJay_> One of the barriers that we have to cross with faculty is convincing them that no one has to review work before it goes live on Wikipedia.
[21:41] <AshLin> Interesting point PJ
[21:41] <bishakha> Peejay: yes, can imagine that!
[21:41] <PeeJay_> If we encourage students to work on their articles in the user space first, I think it is more likely that the articles will sit there until the end of the term.
[21:41] <AshLin> they prbably fear lossof control
[21:41] <PeeJay_> And the students will never have the benefit of interacting with the community.
[21:41] <arjunaraoc> PeeJay_: that is good for small edits. but when people are starting out, there is a possibility that it may not be the best.
[21:41] <AshLin> and fear a damage to reputtion should studentsunderperform
[21:42] <PeeJay_> arjunaraoc: But we're encouraging them to start with small edits (that are less likely to be reverted)
[21:42] <arjunaraoc> PeeJay_: then, that would be fine.
[21:42] <srikanthlogic> it would take a while for one to get all those gazzilion terminologies
[21:42] <PeeJay_> The idea is to get them editing in the article space immediately. Sure they'll make mistakes, but I think if we let them play in the sand they'll never want to get out.
[21:42] <AshLin> PJ,the small or large size may be less important/relevant than referenced/unreferenced
[21:42] <Abhi_> Small edits at begining as learning part, and then non-minor edits
[21:42] <arjunaraoc> or a controlled experiment could be done for new articles with a group doing in sandboxes and another group in article name space
[21:43] <+fschulenburg> arjunaraoc: that's a great idea
[21:43] <ALX09> arjunaraoc: One of the guiding principles that we've specified in our class is that regardless of the size of the edit, only make a change if your change adds value to the article.
[21:43] * fschulenburg loves experiments
[21:43] <PeeJay_> AshLin: That's a good point. We are heavily stressing the importance of using appropriate references for all additions.
[21:44] <AshLin> if people feel underconfident, a live editing session under direction of experienced wikipedians can be provided
[21:44] <AshLin> thanks, Peejay, it certainly changed my editting fundamentally
[21:44] <arjunaraoc> If everybody creates in article space and the quality is not upto the mark, it will be lot of load for CA's regular wikipedians and could reduce the reputation(?) of wikipedia. Should not be like Goole translation project for indic languages
[21:44] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: adding references is a piece of cake walk after the gatech students' project
[21:44] <Abhi_> Students have lots of information, but either they dont know how to put that on wikipedia, or they dont have (reliable) references...
[21:45] <AshLin> yes, the Google Books thingy is a dream come true
[21:45] <srikanthlogic> Abhi_: science & engg would mostly have widest range of sources
[21:45] <arjunaraoc> thx AshLin
[21:45] <AshLin> Abhi, students dont actually have loads of reliable sources unless they get access to JSTOR etc
[21:45] <PeeJay_> arjunaraoc: I don't know that having them edit in the article space will call into question the quality of Wikipedia.
[21:46] <Abhi_> Agreed
[21:46] <a_r_n> AshLin: am downloading JSTOR 32 GB \m/
[21:46] <arjunaraoc> AshLin: I think most good colleges have electronic access to highly technical literature.
[21:46] <AshLin> anyway Wikipedia has lots of "anadi" editors, let our Cas be there too
[21:46] <ALX09> PeeJay : I agree with you.
[21:46] <sudhanwa> hi !!
[21:46] <AshLin> but Arjuna's concerns can be best addressed if we can get them to learn editing fast
[21:47] <a_r_n> sudhanwa: good evening sir...
[21:47] <AshLin> Hi Sudhanwa!
[21:47] <srikanthlogic> curious any profs here
[21:47] <Parag> yes srikanth !
[21:47] * Tanvir misses 750 more people, and 40 minutes left. :-P
[21:47] <Parag> I am here
[21:47] <arjunaraoc> PeeJay_: Since we are talking of 1000's of student editors, soon, I am concerned that the impact of this experiment may be felt some times in an undesired way.
[21:47] <bishakha> hi sudhanwa
[21:48] <AshLin> Good evening Prof Parag
[21:48] <PeeJay_> AshLin: You're right. And that's why we're encouraging them to start off with small, well referenced edits and then slowly increase the size of their edits as their proficiency improves.
[21:48] <PeeJay_> Hi Sudhanwa!
[21:48] == sudhanwa_ has changed nick to sudhanwa
[21:48] <bishakha> arjunaraoc: what would be the undesired impact?
[21:48] <Parag> good evening Ashwin Sir !
[21:48] <AshLin> if they need help with efs, those of us with JSTOR access through Pune Univ or through Wikipedias Reference Request page can help
[21:48] <sudhanwa> whats up?
[21:48] <+Hmundol> @srikanthlogic: One of them emailed me earlier in they day, asking how to join "IRC". i gave her the link but dont' think she's joined! Having said that, Sudhanwa and Parag are both teachers! ...though not on the teaching side of the program.
[21:48] <ram_> as of now students are more concerned in article selection, our role here is to facilitate them to right sources
[21:49] <arjunaraoc> bishakha: I mean lots of articles with poor quality in terms of writeup, references etc
[21:49] <ALX09> arjunaraoc: You're point is very valid. However, we also have experienced professors overseeing the articles. And in the end, if all fails...you always have the option of reverting an article back to tis original form. So just because of the possiblity, I believe we should by no means discourage the exercise.
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[21:49] <Parag> hahaha
[21:49] <wasimmogal2007_> Good Evening Sudhanwa Sir.....
[21:49] <srikanthlogic> Hmundol: oh!
[21:49] <AshLin> the ideal way is if we can link CAs to mentors
[21:49] <PeeJay_> arjunaraoc: I would suggest that there are already thousands of articles of the quality you describe.
[21:49] <sudhanwa> Hmundol: ashlin also teaches in Pune university
[21:49] <AshLin> Hi Hisham
[21:50] <sudhanwa> wasimmogal2007_: hi
[21:50] <+Hmundol> @sudhanwa: I forgot that bit!!!
[21:50] <arjunaraoc> ALX09: Good to know that quality will be taken care of.
[21:50] <AshLin> Thanks for remembering that, btw I forgot :)
[21:50] <sudhanwa> lol
[21:50] <PeeJay_> arjunaraoc: It's hard to conceive of a scenario where bringing thousands of students into Wikipedia actually hurts the project.
[21:50] <Parag> AshLin: everybody forgets that....:P
[21:51] <AshLin> okay, is any CA lloking for a mentor, I can definitely take one, perhaps more later
[21:51] <bishakha> agreed, pj
[21:51] <sudhanwa> Parag: in the current academic scenerio, it is better to frget that :-)
[21:51] <ALX09> arjunaraoc: The entire exercise would be meaningless if it came at the cost of the quality of Wikipedia articles. So rest ensured there are enough checks in place.
[21:51] <arjunaraoc> PeeJay_: I know, but most of them ar e not from any coordinated effort. Here since the articles are being produced through a well coordinated effort, there may be more attention.
[21:51] <srikanthlogic> arjunaraoc: philosophically cant compare gtrans and edu-program since motivation is diff between contrib groups. Money and knowledge..
[21:51] <Parag> sudhanwa: very true sir!
[21:51] <Abhi_> Student will get good mark for good article, so basically, student himself will be more worried about project article "quality" then anyone else...
[21:52] <ram_> I agree with Abhi
[21:52] <AshLin> Abhi : Yes, but mostly student just doesn't have a clue of how to go ahead, even if he wants to
[21:52] <ALX09> Ahbi_: You're right. But you also have to factor in the account that in the end they are only students, their definition of quality may be different from someone elses.
[21:52] <arjunaraoc> srikanthlogic: We also need a good way to sustain this. Gtrans was able to sustain whatever they did because they were able to pay.
[21:52] <wasimmogal2007_> I agree abhi..... students will work hard and gather quality contributions by visiting the Library....
[21:52] <AshLin> Welcoime Odisha1
[21:52] <srikanthlogic> also there will be something to show for future generations on what you did on school.. neither my dad had something to show, nor i have anything to show..
[21:53] <wasimmogal2007_> true @ srikanthlogic
[21:53] <ram_> I completely agree with Srikant
[21:53] <PeeJay_> arjunaraoc: So far the additional attention has been nothing but positive.
[21:53] <AshLin> that is quite an interesting aspect Srikanth
[21:53] <wasimmogal2007_> also it will be worth the quality
[21:53] <srikanthlogic> arjunaraoc: my expectation is 1% will turn into wikipedians
[21:53] <Parag> Yes .... but also reminding them that there article will be read by millions of readers from all over the world, will make the students write creditable articles, and not just scribble the things as it os
[21:53] <+Hmundol> @srikanthlogic: i can't tell you how powerful a motivator that has proved when we have spoken to teachers and students. a global audience motivates and inspires students to learn editing faster and make greater efforts to come up with quality articles.
[21:53] <AshLin> PJ, does the 1% figure seem under-realistic to you?
[21:53] <srikanthlogic> arjunaraoc: expecting more than 1% conversion is bit too much..
[21:53] <arjunaraoc> Hmundol: Are there any mid term surveys planned during this program to collect feedback?
[21:54] <Gurmeet> agree with Parag.. it has to be more than marks
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[21:54] <Abhi_> Ashiown Sir, We will be there, if they get any difficulty , and as article marks going to be on their "mark-sheet" , we (as CA's) and students will be more careful about quality of article, 'cos Marks will be directly proportional to quality of article
[21:54] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: 1% is very high if you consider normal meetups / workshops
[21:54] <Abhi_> *Sorry for typo, Ashwin Sir
[21:54] <PeeJay_> AshLin: I honestly can't say. I think Frank might be able to talk about what the result has been in the US. I haven't seen the figures.
[21:54] <AshLin> No issue, I type worse regularly :)
[21:54] <AshLin> okay, let us say 1%,
[21:55] <AshLin> but the point here is - Abhi & other CAs - do you know if students asked for mentoring?
[21:55] <Abhi_> Yes! Normally they ask
[21:55] <AshLin> or do they prefer other means?
[21:55] <+Hmundol> @arjunaraoc: we are planning a end-of-term feedback on the pune pilot. as you can imagine right now, we have our hands full on just managing the basic program. ...if you notice, i remained very very very quiet when you and frank were talking about experiments. We just dont' have the bandwith to do anything but the barebone basics - and we are straining doing just that.
[21:55] <Parag> 1% of even atleast 1 million = ten thousand .... its good enough
[21:55] <AshLin> Sp what happens then?
[21:56] <ALX09> @AshLin: Quite a few sent us their queries over email.
[21:56] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: that 1% was answer to arjunaraoc of sustenance.. only way is to grow program :)
[21:56] <Gurmeet> I think they are ok mailing individually to CAs
[21:56] <Gurmeet> to solve their queries
[21:56] <AshLin> do CAs face problems? are you Cas able to answer things to theirsatisfaction?
[21:56] <arjunaraoc> thx Hmundol : may be you can gather feedback informally then.
[21:57] <PeeJay_> We are also encouraging them to post on discussion pages of the articles they edit.
[21:57] <Gurmeet> most of the times... otherwise i shoot those queries to PJ... :-)
[21:57] <AshLin> Yes, Srikanth, forget conversion rate, lets make those 1% good wikipedians
[21:57] <PeeJay_> And to reach out to editors in their subject area (through the WikiProjects).
[21:57] <Abhi_> 1)They ask individually, 2)They Mail personally, 3)They leave MSG on talk page. . .and they google themselves for answers to write "good" article, because even at time of interview they will showcase article in resume...and also it will be viewed in history..
[21:57] <AshLin> Hmmm, PJ, the articles CAs inhabit and editors from India are twodifferent worlds
[21:57] <arjunaraoc> srikanthlogic: 1% for six months post the program would be pretty good.
[21:58] <AshLin> we dont even know what they are upto
[21:58] <Gurmeet> absolutely agree with Abhi
[21:58] <+Hmundol> Wikiprojects is something that teachers have found most interesting. ...and i suspect they will reach out because there are some seriously informed, passionate and active folks they interact with on thier respective subject areas. i suspect we will get the same response from students also
[21:58] <PeeJay_> AshLin: You can follow all of their activities at WP:INDIAEDU
[21:58] <AshLin> Abhi, that sounds good, but I dont think that every guy does that
[21:59] <bishakha> Sounds like it's off to a really good start. Glad I joined the chat, was most educative. Bye then
[21:59] <+Hmundol> Take care, Bishakha.
[21:59] <srikanthlogic> PeeJay_: i was just talking to Hmundol about how there could be more additions to page.. i couldnt visually see difference much
[21:59] <PeeJay_> bishakha: Thanks for coming! :)
[21:59] <srikanthlogic> PeeJay_: content wise
[21:59] <Abhi_> And 1000 students joining Wikipedia Project as Campus Education, it will (hopefuly) improve Wikipedia Quality Articles..
[22:00] <PeeJay_> srikanthlogic: The class pages have been expanded immensely in the past week.
[22:00] <Parag> guys even I am hitting the bed ....
[22:00] <arjunaraoc> Thanks everyone. Nice to hear all the updates, best wishes, bye
[22:00] <AshLin> okay, but as per the leaderboard no nbody has started editing
[22:00] <Parag> take care .....bye bye !
[22:00] <Parag> gud nyt !
[22:00] <AshLin> ciao Arjuna, Parag, Bishakha
[22:00] <ALX09> All right guys...I'm off to bed.
[22:00] <PeeJay_> Right. Keep in mind that this is the beginning of the term.
[22:00] <PeeJay_> Most colleges didn't even have students back on campus until 10 days ago.
[22:00] <Srikeit> Seeya guys :)
[22:01] <PeeJay_> Once the term moves forward students will start editing and then you'll see exactly what they're up to.
[22:01] <+Hmundol> AshLin: Nobody has started editing as of yet. We are at the start of the term.
[22:01] <Abhi_> This is just begining of term, actual college lecture (first topic) will start soon, and afterthat student will "choose" article to edit, and after that leaderbord will be active...
[22:01] <ram_> good night Parag
[22:01] <AshLin> Ciao ALX09 & Srikeit
[22:01] <PeeJay_> Goodnight to those who are leaving!
[22:02] <AshLin> if thereis a common discussion board ala Indi-board, say on the leaderboard, those of us who wish to volunteer time can stop by
[22:02] <srikanthlogic> also some talk page tagging, so we get all pages in a category to stop by and know how articles are shaping up
[22:03] <AshLin> Ideally, if it is done on India-board, there will be huge page-watching and nice responses
[22:03] <AshLin> yep, Srikanth, great idea
[22:03] <Abhi_> And thats another advantage, "LeaderBoard" , it will stimulate students (more precisely institutes) to write good articles, because at - last it becomes institute reputation...so there wont be any problem regarding quality of article...
[22:03] <PeeJay_> These are good ideas and certainly something we can work on going forward.
[22:04] <Srikeit> really good ideas
[22:04] <ram_> I've a doubt,
[22:04] <AshLin> Abhi, over-emphasis on this will freeze students scared stiff before they start, dont put institution prestige in every edit
[22:04] <AshLin> yes, Ram?
[22:04] <Abhi_> Agreed.
[22:04] <srikanthlogic> prestige, pride are little bad when it comes to wikipedia :P
[22:04] <ram_> Leaderboard in our case is going to focus on the "Quantity", coz it would be hard to asses the "Quality" aspect
[22:05] <ram_> and College like CoEP are definitely going to lead
[22:05] <a_r_n> prestige, pride might affect articles...
[22:05] <Abhi_> Thats interesting point.
[22:05] <AshLin> Im a bit fuzzy on leaderboard, thought it was a talk-page. Can someone clarify?
[22:05] <PeeJay_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States_Public_Policy/Leaderboard
[22:05] <a_r_n> AshLin: it might be kind of score board
[22:05] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: leader board is more like points table
[22:05] <PeeJay_> That's what the leaderboard from the US project looked like from last term.
[22:05] <AshLin> okay
[22:06] <StevenW> ana
[22:06] <+Hmundol> Not necassarily, Ram. The leaderboard can also reflect student contributions.
[22:06] <AshLin> like articles created, GAs, FAs, DYKs etc?
[22:06] <ram_> but the point is who's gonna give the points
[22:06] <StevenW> Whoops
[22:06] <Abhi_> Agreed with Hisham
[22:06] <AshLin> Hi Steven
[22:06] <sudhanwa> i dont know if this is answered already, but just one question.
[22:06] <+Hmundol> Hey StevenW. ...we;ll wind up before you guys start. india Programs doing an IRC ont he educ program
[22:06] <StevenW> Hi
[22:06] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: GA's FA's too much pressure no ?
[22:06] <StevenW> Awesome :) I'll stick around and lurk.
[22:07] <ram_> Yep it's gonna show how an individual is performing to a fair level
[22:07] <+Hmundol> Ram: That's why we need everyone to add user names and course pages etc etc etc
[22:07] <ram_> but for institutions its hard to assess
[22:07] <+Hmundol> will then have an automated way of doing it
[22:07] <AshLin> well, is there a less objective way to measure quality?
[22:07] <PeeJay_> StevenW: Hey Steven.
[22:07] <Theo10011> Hello StephenW! ;)
[22:07] <sudhanwa> how many edits are done by the CAs till now and how many of them are still there.. I mean considering the quality consideration by other editors who delete many things from new editors.
[22:07] <Theo10011> lemme clean house for you.
[22:07] <+Hmundol> Instis won't need to do anything except putting up they course pages, and making sure that user names are appropriately tagged.
[22:08] == mode/#wikimedia-office [+o Theo10011] by ChanServ
[22:08] == mode/#wikimedia-office [-v fschulenburg] by Theo10011
[22:08] == mode/#wikimedia-office [-v Hmundol] by Theo10011
[22:08] <AshLin> best is to have a review committee of editors who suggest improvements based on GA/DYK like criteria
[22:08] == mode/#wikimedia-office [-o Theo10011] by ChanServ
[22:08] <PeeJay_> The assessment of quality happens on two fronts.
[22:08] <PeeJay_> The first is that the professor gives marks to each student based on his/her contribution.
[22:08] <Hmundol> Hey, we are at the end of our 1 hour - and I know that we are getting dangerously close to Sue' office hours so we have to wind up fairly quickly!
[22:09] <Theo10011> StevenW: don't forget to update the topic.
[22:09] <AshLin> okay
[22:09] <PeeJay_> But the community can also assess the articles.
[22:09] <PeeJay_> I know Sage (user:ragesoss) is currently leading the assessment drive of articles produced in the US last term.
[22:09] <ram_> yep, if we can use the Star Rating mechanism, which is fairly new to Wikipedia
[22:09] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: start, B , C Class would do good for start
[22:10] <AshLin> my last suggesstion, we form a community review system, like A class review, on request when student feels its okay. If it pases GA, we promote it or give feedback
[22:10] <Hmundol> Hey, CAs, if you want to hang around, feel free to do so. Sue Gardner has an IRC on this same channel starting 2230 IST. If you're interested, hang in there.
[22:10] <Gurmeet> Thanks Hisham... I will make a move... Bbye everyone....!
[22:11] <AshLin> yes, but for stub. start, C, B - CAs or editors can judge for themselves, failrly simple criteria
[22:11] <AshLin> ciao Gurmeet
[22:11] <sudhanwa> if we want t continue further, just join the #pluggies channel.
[22:11] <ram_> bye Gurmeet
[22:11] <sudhanwa> so that this channel can be left for the other meetings
[22:12] <AshLin> I'm game till 2230 but I gtg then, Sudhanwa
[22:12] <Srikeit> Hmundol : Will post logs to meta :)
[22:12] <Hmundol> CAs; Sue's the Exec Director of the Foundation. sorry, forgot to mention that in my earlier line.
[22:12] <AshLin> Yes, we know :)
[22:12] <Hmundol> @Srikeit: thanks!
[22:12] <a_r_n> su kar mere man ko.... ;)
[22:13] <ram_> :D
[22:13] <ram_> RDB
[22:13] <Hmundol> someone translate that for PJ before he uses it on a rickshaw wallah pls...
[22:13] <ram_> LOL
[22:13] <srikanthlogic> or even for me for that matter
[22:13] <PeeJay_> hahah
[22:13] <AshLin> RDB is new for an out of touch guy likeme :)
[22:13] <Theo10011> Srikeit BTW the topic wasn't locked, it should've been updated for this meeting.
[22:13] <sudhanwa> any answers to my question?
[22:13] <ram_> Rang De Basanti
[22:14] <AshLin> I answered
[22:14] <AshLin> okay
[22:14] <PeeJay_> sudhanwa: Unfortunately I will have be calling it a night as well.
[22:14] <AshLin> lets discuss till 10:20 IST and call it off so that Sue gets a clear session
[22:15] <srikanthlogic> AshLin: where were we ?
[22:15] <AshLin> assessment model
[22:15] <AshLin> do we go stub/stsrt/C/B
[22:15] <srikanthlogic> another thing with GA is, not everything might be candidate
[22:15] <AshLin> or stub/DYK/GA/Fa
[22:15] <Theo10011> AshLin: don't worry, you haven't dealt with the -en crowd. They won't mind. ;)
[22:16] <AshLin> or do a community review on request
[22:16] <srikanthlogic> yea.. start / C / B / DYK ?
[22:16] <srikanthlogic> stub is too low for course work,
[22:16] <AshLin> the aim realistically could be like DYK standards
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[22:17] <sudhanwa> AshLin: Your comment is fine. Any numbers/updates from the CAs?
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[22:17] <ram_> but Srikant students can choose a "stub" article and improve it
[22:17] == Seddon [~joe_seddo@Wikimedia/Seddon] has joined #wikimedia-office
[22:17] <Theo10011> and here comes the cabal.
[22:17] <a_r_n> also i don't think that student's articles will reach GA..... (might be in some cases)
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[22:17] * Tanvir is going to spam channels is 10 minutes.
[22:17] <srikanthlogic> ram_: yeah
[22:17] <Tanvir> Hope it's okay?
[22:17] <Theo10011> Tanvir I already started.
[22:17] <Ironholds> fschulenburg, did you get my email about the bookshelf "understanding free licenses" leaflet?
[22:17] <Tanvir> Theo10011, you are too early. :-)
[22:18] <Theo10011> Hey, I'm always on time!!!!!:P
[22:18] <AshLin> In DYL like standard, say minimum 2000 charcacters, say - one reference per paragraph, NPOV and no obvious formatting issues
[22:18] <Theo10011> don't make me smite you.
[22:18] <AshLin> *DYK
[22:18] <Hmundol> Hey guys, i'm logging off too. Thanks for attending everyone.