Fundraising 2010/Committee/Meetings/2010-08-12

[23:01] Philippe: Thanks for being here... we thought that it would be a good idea to bring folks into the planning phases of the 2010 Annual Contribution Campaign early

[23:01] Philippe: Zack and I are really committed to this being a fundraiser in which we have as much community collaboration as possible.

[23:01] Tempodivalse: That's good. This is already going to be better than last year's fundraiser, I can tell ...

[23:01] Philippe: heh, Thanks Tempodivalse... Megan will have the payment I promised you, after the meeting.

[23:02] Anthere joined the chat room.

[23:02] killiondude: do you mean WIKIPEDIA FOREVER?

[23:02] eiaway: Philippe: early?

[23:02] Brian_S: Wikipedia is forever

[23:02] Keegan: Not yet, killiondude

[23:02] Philippe: So we're living by a couple of guiding principles for this year:

[23:02] geniice: killiondude there should be a globe in there middle of that

[23:02] Anthere: hello

[23:02] eiaway is now known as effeietsanders.

[23:02] Philippe: 1) Test, test early, test often, and live and die by the test results.

[23:02] Philippe: 2) Work closely with local communities, and provide a ton of avenues for collaboration.

[23:02] volunteer joined the chat room.

[23:03] Philippe: 3) Do our very best to ensure that what we do appropriately and adequately reflects our core values.

[23:03] Philippe: One of the first ways we wanted to do that was by putting up the page on meta as a workspace, which I hope you've all seen.

[23:03] StevenW: Link?

[23:04] • jeremyb is late

[23:04] Philippe: Another way to do that is to promise you that messages will be out front and public and beg for local communities to work with and create their own messages that we can throw into the mix.

[23:04] meganrhernandez: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2010/Committee

[23:04] Philippe: Thanks, meganrhernandez

[23:04] meganrhernandez: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2010

[23:05] StevenW: Thanks

[23:05] Philippe: Our hope is that everyone in this channel will work to be sure that local communities know what's going on, and have the opportunity to collaborate with us in developing the messages for the banners this year.

[23:05] Philippe: We'll test things against each other, and the ones that work are the ones we'll use.

[23:06] Philippe: Make sense so far?

[23:06] Huib: sounds okay so far.

[23:06] geniice: kinda

[23:06] sj|: Can local communities propose custom messages for their projects? Some messages don't translate from wiktionary across to wikipedia (for instance)

[23:06] Philippe: Absolutely.

[23:06] Keegan: What part kinda doesn't, geniice?

[23:07] sj|: great.

[23:07] effeietsanders: Philippe: where do chapters fit into your picture?

[23:07] aharoni: just to make things clear: we are talking about the 2010 year-end fundraising drive through banners? and nothing else?

[23:07] Philippe: effeietsanders: Who knows better than chapters what works well in your local area?

[23:07] Philippe: Our hope is that chapters will drive those conversations.

[23:08] Philippe: aharoni: No. Our hope is to use off-site fundraising as well... potentially things like Facebook and Google.

[23:08] aharoni: Phlippe: ok, thanks

[23:08] sj|: now that geo-targeted banners have been in use for community messages for a while, is that a possibility for fundraising messages as well?

[23:08] Philippe: Yep.

[23:09] Philippe: That's one of the reasons that chapters can help us to fine tune the messages delivered to the areas they're in.

[23:09] effeietsanders: Philippe: I ask because in Bristol, we discussed about giving the chapters more responsibility, and allowing them to run the fundraiser in their geography. It sounds like you are reversing that movement now, but I am not sure I am understanding this correctly. (for the record, I think it is good for chapters and the WMF to give the chapters more responsibility here where they can handle it)

[23:09] Jamesofur: did we just use geo targeting for landing pages last year? or for some of the banners too

[23:09] Anthere: I thought geotargetted banners would not be ready for this year fundraiser ?

[23:09] Philippe: Anthere: It looks as though they well.

[23:09] Jamesofur: *will

[23:09] Anthere: at least, that is what Erik told us in Bristol

[23:09] kibble: Jamesofur, afaik, we just used it for landing pages.

[23:10] effeietsanders: Anthere: WMF changed their opinion during Bristol on the topic, as I recall

[23:10] Jamesofur: that's what I thought, just checking

[23:10] kibble: That's all we had support for at the time.

[23:10] Philippe: effeietsanders: We're going to use the banners that work.... if a chapter proposes a message that performs well in testing, that's the one we'll use.

[23:10] AlexZ_: Jamesofur, Yes, it was just the landing pages.

[23:10] Philippe: We're not imposing messages through anything but proven testing.

[23:10] Anthere: there is a difference between changing ideas and actually making it work...

[23:11] Anthere: Philippe, can you confirm that geotargetted banner will be implemented and work ?

[23:11] effeietsanders: Philippe: so you will make that assessment, you will not leave that assessment, combined with what represents us best and works best in the long run, to the chapters ?

[23:11] geniice: Philippe so who can we get for appeals?

[23:11] kibble: Poor Philippe.

[23:11] Philippe: Anthere: We are now testing the technology, but it looks as though it's on target.

[23:11] Pharos: and the geotargetting will work for subnational areas too, right?

[23:11] Ziko__ joined the chat room.

[23:11] Philippe: Pharos: that's what's in testing right now.

[23:12] Pharos: great

[23:12] Anthere: may I ask how it will be tested ?

[23:12] kibble: Anthere, Pharos; you both already tested it.

[23:12] Pharos: indeed: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MaxMindCityTesting

[23:12] dami_hun: Will testing be able to distinguish based on geography or at least language variant? (I could imagine that different translations could have different effects paired to the same basic "English idea")

[23:12] Philippe: effeietsanders: If there's a banner that's a better message for values reason, and the chapter wants it over one that's performing financially, we're certainly pleased to do that

[23:12] Anthere: I mean, if a chapter gives you a specific banner, how will you test it and decide who will use it

[23:12] Jamesofur: yea what Pharos linked

[23:13] Anthere: kibble, nope, we did not see different banners really....

[23:13] Philippe: Anthere: the banner will be tested literally by putting it up and seeing the performance.

[23:13] Anthere: but....

[23:13] Anthere: comparing the performance to what ?

[23:13] Philippe: We have enough traffic that we can figure out fairly quickly whether people are clicking on it or not

[23:14] Philippe: Comparing it to other banners running under the same conditions... at the same time... etc. We've engaged an experimental design company to make sure we're doing it in a scientifically valid way

[23:14] • Keegan notes the primary concern so far is global sitenotices

[23:14] openstrings joined the chat room.

[23:14] killiondude: /me is for when you're too shy to /say

[23:14] Anthere: yeah, anything to avoid badly focused messaging...

[23:14] Philippe: Absolutely

[23:14] Philippe: We don't want that either, I promise

[23:14] Huib: Will there be enough testing or will wikimedia go down again when we start the fundraiser?

[23:14] Philippe: I certainly hope it won't

[23:15] • Huib remembers last two years

[23:15] geniice: Philippe can we ask the company test questions?

[23:15] Philippe: We've got our engineering team looking at all sorts of things

[23:15] Philippe: geniice: The guy from that company will be engaging with the community on the wikis, yup

[23:15] effeietsanders: Philippe: will the testing data be available to everybody (or at least the chapters) or just to you / the external company?

[23:15] casey joined the chat room.

[23:15] Philippe: Everyone

[23:15] Keegan: So, what makes for a badly focused message?

[23:15] Keegan: As far as local delivery

[23:16] Jamesofur: Wikipedia Forever?

[23:16] Philippe: We're trying our very best to make sure that every bit of data that we have gets pushed out as quickly as possible to everyone.

[23:16] • Jamesofur runs

[23:16] Philippe: Including identifying early who's going to do that and what resources they need.

[23:16] Keegan: Yeah, ignoring last year, what makes for a badly focused message?

[23:16] openstrings: Jamesofur: Template:Trout

[23:16] Philippe: Keegan: A message that isn't consistent with our values or doesn't generate income

[23:16] • Keegan is asking the channel, not Philippe

[23:16] Philippe: oops

[23:16] Brian_S: Jamesofur forever!

[23:16] openstrings: A badly focused message is one that doesn't tell people what we're trying to do

[23:16] geniice: Philippe are we going to get more BS about africa

[23:17] openstrings: or doesn't appeal to people at all

[23:17] effeietsanders: Philippe: available immediately? (I recall last years data was only available aftr the whole fundraising ended)

[23:17] Philippe: effeietsanders: Immediately

[23:17] effeietsanders: good

[23:17] openstrings: great

[23:17] Philippe: geniice: If a message doesn't meet the core values of our community, it won't run. I don't think that "give a car to someone in Africa" would meet those values

[23:17] Philippe: So I actually have a question....

[23:18] Philippe: Last year, our best performing banner was the Jimmy appeal. We'd love to find something (our internal goal... the one Big Audacious One) to raise twice that much money.

[23:18] Philippe: What will do it? If you're from a chapter, what would perform twice as well in your geography?

[23:18] emijrp: Will be a previous selection of the best messages? What is the limit to test?

[23:19] openstrings: Here in NZ, Wikipedia doesn't have a good rep.

[23:19] Philippe: Our intention is to have a large group of banners testing. I don't think we're to a point of determining that we'd //not// run one. If it's appropriately discussed and folks want to test it, I think we should

[23:19] effeietsanders: Philippe: honestly, nothing will run twice as well

[23:20] emijrp: Philippe: to know that, we need to know what message was showed in our area, how many times, ect.

[23:20] aharoni: just an idea: "support Wikipedia in your language"

[23:20] Pharos: obviously, appeals about geographically local projects are wirth a shot

[23:20] Philippe: effeietsanders: I refuse to believe that. We're smart people, let's find something that works better that's consistent with our values.

[23:20] effeietsanders: we would be very happy if we could find something that runs just as well and doesnt cannabalize

[23:20] Jamesofur: openstrings: I think a lot of what could be done both with banners and with the facebook/google ads mentioned is teaching people more about it

[23:20] openstrings: A banner that would be effective would be one that had personal stories

[23:20] Philippe: effeietsanders: so find it! We'd like that too.

[23:20] effeietsanders: Philippe: remind you that the jimmy banner ran the best in the Netherlands compared to all the rest of the world

[23:20] Jamesofur: did you see the donor quotes last year

[23:20] • Jamesofur likes those

[23:20] openstrings: Jamesofur: yes.

[23:20] Pharos: "wikimedia actually does stuff in my country" - about workshops, classes, etc

[23:20] Philippe: aharoni: I think that's a great idea, let's see how something similar to that works

[23:20] effeietsanders: but a complicated factor in this is cannabalization

[23:21] effeietsanders: and that is something impossible to measure directly

[23:21] Philippe: can you define cannabalization in this context, effeietsanders?

[23:21] jorm joined the chat room.

[23:21] effeietsanders: that banners have the same audience

[23:21] Ziko__: until now, we had jimmy wales and besides him mainly readers' restimonials. how about writers' testimonials? or would they work less because readers are not interested in?

[23:21] effeietsanders: and you already reached one group of people

[23:22] emijrp: nice one Ziko__

[23:22] aharoni: "support Wikipedia in your language" is independent of geography and good for any language. (Except English!

[23:22] effeietsanders: then you are cannabalizing on the jimmy banner for example if you launch another banner first with the same target group

[23:22] Keegan: Ziko__: interesting

[23:22] openstrings: I'm already spamming Wikimedia in my email signature. Some that I've tried annoy people, some actually work quite well.

[23:22] Philippe: effeietsanders: We're all for experimenting to see how we reach different target audiences.

[23:22] effeietsanders: Ziko__: probably some quotes from Truth in Numbers might work there

[23:22] Jamesofur: effeietsanders: this is true, the jimmy banner has always(?) been basically the last harrah so that could feed into it

[23:23] effeietsanders: Philippe: I dont see though how to measure this

[23:23] Ziko__: a reader/donor may identify with another reader... but we should at least test. like: this is XYZ doing that peticular important work on MediaWiki, please support him

[23:23] Philippe: So when this meeting is over, I'm going to put it up on the wiki, but I really really want this conversation to continue there... and more importantly, on other wikis.

[23:23] openstrings: Ziko__: Good idea.

[23:23] effeietsanders: Philippe: you probably could ask this to an expert best

[23:23] openstrings: Our stories

[23:23] Jeromyu joined the chat room.

[23:23] openstrings: make it clear that we are people, giving up our time to make information free.

[23:23] Morgan joined the chat room.

[23:24] Anthere: might be worth insisting on end of the year for countries (christmas spirit) in countries very christmas oriented

[23:24] openstrings: And if we can give our time and expertise, maybe you can help us by giving some money

[23:24] Philippe: openstrings: I'm not taking a position one way or the other, but asking... is that a compelling story to readers? We don't know. We should test.

[23:24] Ziko__: we talked about writers' testimonials two years ago on the comproj list, but nothing happened later

[23:24] Philippe: Anthere: yep

[23:24] Jeromyu: hi

[23:24] • Jeromyu just sit in for a while

[23:24] Huib: previous fundraiser looked like they where only made for Wikipedia, is the focus still on wikipedia or on other big projects also?

[23:24] openstrings: ^^

[23:25] Pharos: there were all those testimonial videos made at wikimania, right? we could try those

[23:25] Keegan: I think that writer testimonials could be particularly useful for small communities to encourage donation and activity

[23:25] openstrings: The other projects really don't appreciate a Wikipedia-centric fundraiser.

[23:25] Philippe: Huib: I think this is an important point, well worth saying several times: we want local communities to collaborate in this.

[23:25] Philippe: All of them.

[23:25] Keegan: Chapters can help there for non-english/french/german wikis

[23:25] • Anthere thinks we should run the fundraiser in arab countries NOW to get into the ramadan generous spirit

[23:25] guillom: even wikispecies

[23:25] Jamesofur: agree Keegan

[23:25] geniice: Philippe UK wise? Stephen Fry, Tony Robinson Brian Cox perhaps. Not richard dawkins

[23:25] geniice: Antherearab countries are not talking to us after the mohhamed thing

[23:26] Philippe: geniice: I know there's been a lot of talk about endorsement banners... we should look and see how people respond to us.

[23:26] Anthere: tatata

[23:26] effeietsanders: Philippe: finally, how many videos in gdansk were made in local languages?

[23:26] Jan_eissfeldt: Anthere: +1

[23:26] effeietsanders: for major donor areas? (french, dutch, german)

[23:26] Philippe: effeietsanders: I don't have that information. That's a Jay question.

[23:26] effeietsanders: Philippe: could you pass that question perhaps?

[23:26] openstrings: We could get testimonials that are neither from readers nor writers.

[23:26] Philippe: Sure, i'll let him know you asked

[23:26] effeietsanders: (there is no hurry in answering)

[23:27] Ziko__: there some awesome testimonials from german celebs in 2007, for STERN. but we wikimedians never did anything with them

[23:27] openstrings: For example, Wikipedia is the only website that students at the local high school can access without a teacher password.

[23:27] effeietsanders: because i dont recall any dutch being interviewed for example

[23:27] tomaszf joined the chat room.

[23:27] effeietsanders: so having soon access to the TiN raw material would be nice...

[23:27] openstrings: And apparently it's because they can trust that all the information the kids will ever need is there.

[23:27] Jamesofur: openstrings: really? Thats really interesting....

[23:27] Jamesofur: is that a national thing or just the local?

[23:28] Jamesofur: sorry off topic

[23:28] openstrings: local, but other schools are following suit

[23:28] openstrings: 2 websites: Wikipedia and the National education grid.

[23:28] emijrp: Philippe: what data about the visitor can we use? location, language, time, anymore?

[23:28] openstrings: That's all

[23:29] Ziko__: in german school project we discussed about wikimedia commons and its usefulness in outreach. like stressing out that everyone can use the media, also teachers for their school sites

[23:29] Philippe: That's a great question, and I think that tomaszf can tell us a little about the statistics we're working toward....

[23:29] openstrings: Jamesofur: It's actually all *.wikipedia and *.wikimedia domains

[23:29] Philippe: and I note that he just joined. For those who don't know, tomaszf is the engineering project manager who's leading the team building the technical tools.

[23:29] Jamesofur: that really is very nice, I'll probably get in touch with you later openstrings I'm interested in that

[23:30] Pharos: I think the non-financial banners can be a very valuable tool, any thought to using some of those beyond december?

[23:30] openstrings: If I could get a video of the principal explaining why, it would be an interesting testimonial

[23:30] tomaszf: greetings all

[23:30] Philippe: Pharos: I think that's a different conversation, but an important one.

[23:31] tomaszf: awjr has been keeping watching in my absence

[23:31] tomaszf: watch*

[23:31] awjr: hello everyone

[23:31] Philippe: awjr is a developer working on this as well

[23:31] Philippe: So tomaszf can you tell us a little about the analytics and statistics ya'll are working on over there?

[23:31] Keegan: *y'all

[23:31] Keegan:

[23:32] killiondude is now known as The_Devil.

[23:32] Philippe: don't correct me on that, Keegan, you're from the deep south. It's regional

[23:32] tomaszf: happily, we'll be looking at extending the legacy analytics solution that we used last year and trying to fill in some of the data holes

[23:32] openstrings: Jamesofur:ttyl, see you all at the next meeting.

[23:32] The_Devil is now known as killiondude.

[23:32] openstrings left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)

[23:32] sj|: hi awjr, tomasz

[23:32] killiondude left the chat room.

[23:32] • guillom waves at sj|

[23:33] sj|: anthere's point about running campaigns for different audiences at different times (ramadan, christmas) is good. the question of what data (about the viewer) a banner-writer has access to is great.

[23:33] sj|: I have a general q about getting data over time:

[23:33] tomaszf: i've been drafting the project page for it on mediawiki.org so that everyone else can have a good understanding of what our plan is

[23:33] guillom: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Central_Notice

[23:33] Philippe: I think it's important to know that we're really increasing the number of people on our end who are available and will be pushing out data to local communities as quickly as possible.

[23:34] Abbasjnr joined the chat room.

[23:34] sj|: can we have a year-round process of floating banners to, say, 1 in 100,000 hits to get a baseline of information about how well various banners work? there could be competitions for very effective targetted banners for various purposes (both financial, project-related; getting people to click through to whatever the banner is about)

[23:34] tomaszf: we have two major initiatives for analytics one is to scale the legacy system and the other is to look at the feasibility of using www.openwebanalytics.com

[23:34] Philippe: sj|: That's a question for the community and not one that I want to get involved in... but I'd like to really not think about that until after we get through the annual giving campaign, if at all possible.

[23:35] Philippe: But....

[23:35] Philippe: It does take me to a really important point.

[23:35] Philippe: In order for us to test banners, we have to do exactly what sj| suggested... only focused solely on fundraising...

[23:36] Ziko__: would it make sence to have sitenotices depending on the article someone is reading? when reading an article in the category history, something different when in the category science?

[23:36] Philippe: So we think it's important to get some banners up to test in very small numbers in advance of the fundraiser: so that when we do launch, we're maximizing every day.

[23:36] emijrp: Amazing.

[23:36] Pharos: oh, that's a can of worms

[23:36] Philippe: Ziko__: That's an intersting idea... probably beyond the scope of this year.

[23:36] Philippe: We don't have the technology to do it.

[23:37] Ziko__: ok

[23:37] Philippe: And I've already got this team crushing under a load of technology delivereables

[23:37] Keegan: I'm quite interested to see how our wikis with less than 10,000 articles produce data

[23:37] • tomaszf holds up the sky

[23:37] effeietsanders: tomaszf: cant you put that in a banner then?

[23:38] effeietsanders: but having fundraising throughout the year has also some disadvantages

[23:38] kibble: +1

[23:38] Keegan: "Supporting Wikimedia is supporting Tomasz to hold up the sky"

[23:38] tomaszf: effeietsanders: your too kind. it takes a cast of many to pull this off.

[23:38] effeietsanders: for example, there is also a full time requirement to be at call, a lot of volunteer work is constantly required...

[23:38] Philippe: effeietsanders: I don't want to get into the fundraising year round conversation... right now we're not in a place to even think about that.

[23:38] Huib: Keegan: I would donate with that banner

[23:38] Philippe: But I do want to start testing banners to a very small percentage of banners very soon.

[23:38] effeietsanders: Philippe: I was responding to the 1 in 100.000 banners

[23:39] Philippe: Ah, yes, fair point, effeietsanders

[23:39] effeietsanders: no matter how many they are, you will need to keep up a high level of quality

[23:39] effeietsanders: both on the banners

[23:39] effeietsanders: but also qualitatively

[23:39] effeietsanders: right now, I can promise people they only get banners once a year

[23:39] effeietsanders: when we really need money

[23:39] effeietsanders: if you do this, I can't any more

[23:39] effeietsanders: because we are just bugging them to test

[23:40] effeietsanders: that doesnt mean we absolutely shouldn't but it is something to seriously consider I think

[23:40] sj|: effe, I'm not sure "when we really need money" applies. fundraising is done once a year for logistical reasons...

[23:40] Philippe: So what it comes down to is this, I think: if we wait until the day that we launch the fundraiser, we're not necessarily putting up the most effective banners, because we haven't tested them to find the most effective ones.

[23:40] effeietsanders: sj|: that *is* the story we are running

[23:40] Philippe: When we only have a few weeks to raise money, we have to maximize every day of that campaign.

[23:40] effeietsanders: that is also why we stop when we have the money we need for next year

[23:40] Angela: will you be testing different shapes and locations instead of always using a banner at the top?

[23:41] Huib: Philippe: we didn't test them all, but we don't get angry contributors.

[23:41] Ziko__: a little testing can't do wrong

[23:41] Huib: I guess we need to find a middle way

[23:41] effeietsanders: Philippe: is it bad to not start with 100%?

[23:41] Philippe: Angela: right now, the centralnotice only puts it up at the top, in the standard format, though we can change the size, etc.

[23:41] Jamesofur: Huib: if the banners suck we also get lots of angry contributors

[23:41] Nemo_bis: Are you going to start with Wikipedia messages also on sister projects? Please use Meta at least.

[23:42] Huib: Jamesofur: people always complain about the banners, thats nothing new.

[23:42] sj|: low-volume testing in advance would hopefully make a campaign less frustrating for readers, not more.

[23:42] Philippe: Banners will be targetted to local communities, Nemo_bis: we won't use a Wikipedia banner on Wikinews.

[23:42] Jamesofur: Huib: exactly though to be fair they do tend to complain more when they are worse

[23:42] Philippe: sj|: exactly.

[23:42] sj|: nemo: it sounds like there will be custom messages for each project. more customized than just Meta as long as the project has suggested alternatives

[23:42] Angela: Philippe: maybe that's something that could be worked on before next year's fundraiser as other positions could be more effective

[23:43] Philippe: And yes, effeietsanders, I think we have a responsibility to maximize the effectiveness of each day. If we're going to impose banners, we want them to be the most effective possible.

[23:43] sj|: angela: great point. any tips from your work on wikia?

[23:43] jorm: "all y'all"

[23:43] Nemo_bis: sj|, Philippe , yes, I've understood that, I mean in the testing phase.

[23:43] Philippe: Angela: I hope tomaszf took note of that for scoping on potential future centralnotice work

[23:43] kibble: Angela, just a historical note, we have planned on trying to get stuff like that up, see the sidebar of test.wikipedia.org right now

[23:43] Philippe: Nemo_bis: even in testing, we will not target a Wikipedia banner at Wikinews or Wiktionary

[23:43] Huib: Philippe: last year we had a banner for Commons, but that redirected to a page on the wmf site speaking about wikipedia... Will all pages be in the name of the project where the reader is coming from?

[23:44] Angela: sj|: one problem may be that the more effective positions are also the ones that annoy people most... so you need to find the right balance

[23:44] • tomaszf is taking notes

[23:44] effeietsanders: Philippe: I think we should maximize the total outcome, that is not necessarily the same as the maximum for each day

[23:44] aharoni: now that i think of it, why is the fundraiser is usually in December? Taxes? Christmas?

[23:44] effeietsanders: sure, dont run ridiculous banners like WIKIPEDIA FOREVER

[23:44] effeietsanders:

[23:44] Angela: sj|: also, using images and not only text would likely lead to more clicks

[23:44] Nemo_bis: Angela, I think that kibble is also thinking about "buttons" in the sidebar, which were proposed last year.

[23:44] effeietsanders: but also, how you define the beginning of the fundraiser is a matter of definition

[23:44] Philippe: I think I can safely promise that WIKIPEDIA {GLOBE} FOREVER is off the table for right now

[23:44] sj|: yes, the image vs text question is a good one

[23:44] Jamesofur: aharoni: I believe at least part of it is taxes but I'm sure that is not the only one

[23:45] Pharos: christmas i think

[23:45] sj|: and what sorts of images and colors are effective where

[23:45] Jamesofur: it is a time many people are thinking about giving

[23:45] Jamesofur: for many reasons

[23:45] Nemo_bis: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2009/Donation_buttons_upgrade

[23:45] Ziko__: i had the impression with some previous banners that they looked like adverts, the kind you are ignoring automatically

[23:45] sj|: angela: have you tested video banners?

[23:45] kibble: sj|, +1. We had an issue with some of the banners last year... the Jimmy Appeal notice used the same colors as death notices on zhwiki.

[23:45] kibble: (@colors)

[23:46] sj|: right

[23:46] Pharos: a very large % of charitable donations in quite a few countries are during that period

[23:46] kibble: Chinese Wikimedians were startled and worried that Jimmy died.

[23:46] parutron joined the chat room.

[23:46] Philippe: So, our hope is that we're going to have folks from local communities step up and say "HEY! STUPID COLOR FOR A BANNER HERE!" and we can adjust to that.

[23:46] Philippe: This entire campaign is based on local communities of all types (projects, languages, but particularly chapters) involving themselves early and frequently in the process of managing the fundraiser.

[23:47] aharoni: So what about the countries in which the Christmas season is mostly meaningless, like Israel and most of the Arab countries?

[23:47] aharoni: (it is probably meaningful in Israel for tax reasons, but i don't remember that it was emphasized in the past campaigns.)

[23:47] Nemo_bis: aharoni, I think that fiscal year is similar, isn't it?

[23:47] Abbasjnr left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)

[23:48] Philippe: aharoni: We're not throwing up a Christmas tree on banners For this year, at least, the campaign has to be at the same times as last year. Once we're done with this year, we can talk about whether the timing is correct for next

[23:48] Nemo_bis: I suppose this is something WM-Il may know.

[23:48] sj|: angela: or animated banners? I have seen some quite charming animations in topic-related banners on-wiki.

[23:48] sj|: tomasz: one natural place for an additional fundraising notice (or related thumbnail) is in the left-hand sidebar below the bottom of the nav.

[23:48] Pharos: i imagine there are studies somewhere about charitable giving by country by season

[23:48] Philippe: So, I want to move towards wrapping up this meeting: but I want to make a couple of final points....

[23:48] Angela: sj|: not internally, though ads on wikia have sometimes been video. I don't have any useful info on that though

[23:49] Nemo_bis: sj|, but people didn't like sidebar buttons much last year...

[23:49] Philippe: first, the wiki pages are live now. Please, continue this discussion there, and talk about what you'd like to see happen for the banners this year. Let's get moving on some messages. More importantly, have this conversation in your local communities... on wiki, or at chapters.

[23:49] emijrp: Also, we can add a new tab for donation: edit, history, donate! ; )

[23:49] sj|: nemo: neither did I. they weren't very pretty. I think there's an opportunity to do something beautiful and elegant.

[23:50] Nemo_bis: sj|, I agree.

[23:50] Philippe: second, there's a mailing list called Fundraising that we'll be using to push out notifications about things like banners....

[23:50] Nemo_bis: What will the process to propose some banner be like? I mean, a bullet list with lots of proposals and a !vote for each one seems quite messy.

[23:50] Philippe: please join it

[23:50] kibble: The formatting from last year worked well.

[23:50] kibble: An "Alternate Banners" page or something like it.

[23:50] Philippe: ACK.. i mistyped... "to push out notiication about things like meetings" i meant to say

[23:50] emijrp: Philippe: link?

[23:50] sj|: nemo: perhaps artwork made just for wp that runs down the sidebar and draws the eye... sharing the joy of the project.

[23:50] Nemo_bis: Philippe, please change privacy settings so that it's listed in https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/

[23:51] kibble: ( http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_2009/Alternative_banners is the alternate banners page from last year)

[23:51] Huib: Philippe: the list is still on moderation? You cant just join.

[23:51] tomaszf: sj|: yup, there are many of other places that we could place messaging. were trying to iron out our analytics before making it even more complex

[23:51] Philippe: Nemo_bis: It's not a vote... it's a consensus discussion.

[23:51] Philippe: Anthere is the maven of that particular list, I think

[23:51] Philippe: At least, that's who pointed it out to me

[23:51] Nemo_bis: Yes, she's the admin.

[23:52] aharoni: i can't find "fundraising" on https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/

[23:52] Philippe: OK, we'll see if we can make that easier

[23:52] Nemo_bis: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/fundraising

[23:52] Nemo_bis: Currently archives are private.

[23:52] Angela: I thought this list was only for chapter people

[23:52] Anthere: Philippe, anything. I suggested when it was created that Rand be also moderator

[23:53] Philippe: Anthere, if you'd like to make me a moderator, I'll be happy to help out.

[23:53] Anthere: and indicated I put stricter parameters awaiting discussion

[23:53] Anthere: Angela, nope

[23:53] Philippe: Ah, that makes sense, Anthere. Thanks for that. Let's open it up.

[23:53] Philippe: Collaboration is a good thing.

[23:53] effeietsanders: hm, i thought it was intentionally closed

[23:53] Anthere: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fundraising

[23:54] effeietsanders: although people could apply for it when interested

[23:54] kibble: effeietsanders, as did I.

[23:54] effeietsanders: to protect the atmosphere

[23:54] Anthere: I suggested "private"

[23:54] effeietsanders: tbh, I would be against opening up archives and membership

[23:54] Anthere: but not confidential

[23:54] Philippe: Oops.

[23:54] Anthere: I agree with Eff

[23:54] Philippe: Then let's not do that yet. I thought I asked on there about whether it was restricted and didn't get notification

[23:54] Philippe: That's my misunderstanding

[23:54] Anthere: what was proposed and agreed upon is in the talk page

[23:54] effeietsanders: but to be having a lower threshold in admitting people

[23:55] Philippe: I'll just set up another one for general discussion, I guess.

[23:55] Philippe: But we'll be working mostly on the wiki

[23:55] Philippe: So let's focus on that

[23:55] effeietsanders: (but only chapter/wmf people and volunteers really working on fundraising, not lurkers)

[23:55] Philippe: For now, watch the wiki pages

[23:55] Philippe: And please please please, tell your local communities whats going on and encourage them to get involved.

[23:55] Anthere: Philippe, since we are talking of fundraising... and I see that the fundraising agreement proposition has been posted

[23:55] Anthere: I would be happy to discuss it

[23:55] Philippe: We're going to be doing active outreach to them.

[23:56] Anthere: in particular since the proposition is not what was proposed by WMF in Bristol

[23:56] Philippe: Anthere, I really am not the right person for that... how about if I get a conversation set up with Erik about it?

[23:56] Anthere: (no, I do not have yet the feeling I lost my time there, but still... )

[23:56] effeietsanders: well, could at least be very well interpreted as something that was not agreed upon

[23:57] Anthere: well, no, I think there is an issue on which you can discuss

[23:57] Nemo_bis: Philippe, a fundraising-announce ? I suppose that general discussion will be on foundation-l as always...

[23:57] Anthere: it is the visibility on the landing page

[23:57] Anthere: and this, I guess, is under your responsability

[23:57] Anthere: is not it ?

[23:58] Philippe: Anthere, I'm happy to take your questions and try to get you resolution, but I think it would be better to have someone who was in Bristol from WMF there to discuss that.

[23:58] Anthere: ok, quite simple

[23:58] Anthere: in Bristol, it was agreed to have two cases

[23:58] Anthere: the light and the engaged

[23:59] Anthere: in the case of the light, it was essentially agreed that we would keep the landing page more or less as it was last year

[23:59] Anthere: in 2009

[23:59] Anthere: that's a very rough 60-40

[23:59] effeietsanders: Anthere: light = french scenario, 2009

[23:59] Anthere: yes

[23:59] Anthere: and the proposition writes

[23:59] effeietsanders: engaged = dutch scenario, 2009

[23:59] effeietsanders: that is what it was agreed on, roughly

[23:59] Anthere: in 2008, if you remember

[00:00] Anthere: there was a percentage that was more about 99-1

[00:00] Anthere: that is, just a line to mention the chapter, at the bottom, in small

[00:00] Anthere: now, the proposition reads

[00:00] Anthere: "Donation to WMF will be presented as the default, significantly more prominent option"

[00:00] Anthere: so, my question is

[00:01] Anthere: "will it be something like in 2009 or something like in 2008"

[00:01] Anthere: because if it will be like in 2008, I do not think the French chapter should be bored enough to even participate in the fundraising agreement

[00:01] Terere left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)

[00:01] Anthere: that's too much work for not enough outcome

[00:02] Philippe: OK, I'll pass it on. I will say this: we're in the process of designing and optimizing that page, so that's the reason there's no specific on what it will look like. I can assure you that it won't be 99/1. I think 60/40 is closer to the end number, but the question is how best to accomplish it. I'll work with folks here and try to get you a more firm answer though.

[00:02] effeietsanders: Philippe: the same goes for the engaged situation

[00:03] effeietsanders: we actually agreed at the time that there would be only the chapter option

[00:03] effeietsanders: to make life easier on the donor

[00:03] effeietsanders: (ie, less choices, more donations)

[00:03] effeietsanders: KISS

[00:03] Philippe: I'll double check that, but I think that's still the concept

[00:03] Morgan left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)

[00:03] jorm left the chat room.

[00:03] effeietsanders: but now suddenly I see that the agreement states that the WMF would have a mention too

[00:03] effeietsanders: so a bit confusing

[00:03] Anthere: I do not really see what's the real interest of the two solutions now....

[00:04] Philippe: OK... Thanks. I'll make sure that Erik sees that and hopefully have resolution for you very shortly

[00:04] Philippe: So with that, everyone... sincerely... thank you for being here.

[00:04] Huib: When speaking about the chapters and foundation. Last year there wasn't a real note that some money goes to the chapter and some to the foundation, people believe they donated only to the foundation. Will it be more clear how the donation will be shared between chapter / foundation, this is more open / clear for the people donating

[00:04] Philippe: Please know that we truly want collaboration on this. Please engage your local folks.

[00:05] effeietsanders: Huib: there was a note

[00:05] Anthere: well

[00:05] jeremyb: Anthere: so how do we get on fundraising?

[00:05] effeietsanders: if you were interested, and read the page, you could just very well find it

[00:05] effeietsanders: but honestly, most people dont care

[00:05] Philippe: I'm going to bail out now, because I want my staff to go home and they'll stay here as long as I do

[00:05] Anthere: tough, but true eff

[00:05] effeietsanders: they donate to wikimedia

[00:05] jeremyb: Philippe: bye!

[00:05] Philippe: bye Thanks for being here!

[00:05] Nemo_bis: I've created http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Fundraising , give a look at it (it's only Anther's proposal, anyway).

[00:05] aharoni: thank you, good night

[00:05] You left the room.

[00:14] Jamesofur is now known as Jamesofur|out.