Wikimedia Meta-Wiki

Grants:PEG/FF portal/IRC meeting 16Feb13

< Grants:PEG | FF portal
  • [2013-02-16 16:58:52] [INFO] Now logging to <file:///Users/thomas/Library/Application%20Support/Firefox/Profiles/r40w5evg.default/chatzilla/logs/freenode/channels/%23flowfunding.2013-02-16.log>.
  • [2013-02-16 16:59:25] <Thomas_UK> Hi poux2
  • [2013-02-16 16:59:44] <Thomas_UK> How are you doing?
  • [2013-02-16 17:00:12] <Thomas_UK> hi westand
  • [2013-02-16 17:00:16] <westand> Greetings
  • [2013-02-16 17:00:57] <Thomas_UK> I'd like to ask each participant to introduce herself/himself.
  • [2013-02-16 17:01:18] <Thomas_UK> poux2: Can you let us know something about you?
  • [2013-02-16 17:01:40] <westand> Is this all we expect in terms of attendance?
  • [2013-02-16 17:01:41] <poux2> well, ok
  • [2013-02-16 17:01:57] <poux2> hi westand :)
  • [2013-02-16 17:02:15] <Thomas_UK> Every member is welcom to join
  • [2013-02-16 17:02:29] <poux2> should we wait with introductions until there are more people in the channel?
  • [2013-02-16 17:02:33] <Thomas_UK> I am logging this coinversation in case anyone is interested to read it later.
  • [2013-02-16 17:02:48] <poux2> ah ok
  • [2013-02-16 17:03:44] <poux2> ok, so I will give it a start: I am a wikipedian and admin on German wikipedia since 2005 under the username Poupou l'quourouce
  • [2013-02-16 17:04:05] <poux2> mainly I regard myself an author
  • [2013-02-16 17:04:32] <poux2> but I am also involved on debates on the project as a whole
  • [2013-02-16 17:05:04] <poux2> I also meet up quite frequently with other wikipedians in real life
  • [2013-02-16 17:05:23] <poux2> the German community is very much a real life community, which is rather close-knit
  • [2013-02-16 17:05:47] <poux2> ok, so what about you?
  • [2013-02-16 17:06:03] <Thomas_UK> I am mainly involved with meta discussions and projects. I started contributing while I was living in Brazil. Since I moved to the UK I became involved with the Flow Funding Pilot Project.
  • [2013-02-16 17:06:18] <Thomas_UK> Anything in particular anyone would like to know?
  • [2013-02-16 17:06:44] <Thomas_UK> If not, can you tell omething about you westand ?
  • [2013-02-16 17:07:29] <westand> I am a finishing PhD student in Philadelphia, doing my dissertation on collaborative security (vandalism, spam, copyright violations -- and their life cycles)
  • [2013-02-16 17:08:18] <westand> I also do some analytical work with page view data -- but I am largely a tool developer and participate in en.Wikipedia in a support role
  • [2013-02-16 17:08:36] <Thomas_UK> westand: and poux2 Can you let us know something about how you would like to see the flow funding project take place until July?
  • [2013-02-16 17:08:39] <westand> Gory details at http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~westand/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:West.andrew.g -- for those interested
  • [2013-02-16 17:08:59] <westand> and I have some experience with academic grants, so this appealed to me
  • [2013-02-16 17:09:22] <westand> I think we need to advertise and see what types of requests come to us
  • [2013-02-16 17:09:46] <poux2> I hope to set up a German language landing page for flow funding requests. I already started to do a translation of the portal page on meta
  • [2013-02-16 17:10:22] <Thomas_UK> westand: how do you suggest the project should be advertised?
  • [2013-02-16 17:10:28] <poux2> once this is set up in the DEWP-namespace, I will try to get some attention on the project
  • [2013-02-16 17:11:01] <westand> I would start with a post to the wiki-research-l mailist list
  • [2013-02-16 17:11:06] <westand> mailing*
  • [2013-02-16 17:11:35] <westand> They understand traditional grant disbursement, and there would be some assurance these people know how to produce formal results
  • [2013-02-16 17:11:42] <Thomas_UK> westand: when do you think you could do that?
  • [2013-02-16 17:12:00] <poux2> I will post a blogpost on the WMDE official blog, as well as an article in the kurier, which is the equivalent of the signpost in German wikipedia.
  • [2013-02-16 17:12:08] <westand> That would be trivial and immediate; assuming we have our infrastructure ready to go...
  • [2013-02-16 17:12:34] <poux2> I already talked to the people responsible for the blog and they will post it as soon as I write the blogpost
  • [2013-02-16 17:12:48] <westand> Do we have some listing of our 'expectations' for people to read -- or are we rolling this as we go along?
  • [2013-02-16 17:12:52] <poux2> exactly, I also want to put the pages in place first
  • [2013-02-16 17:13:00] <Thomas_UK> westand: Is there anything in particular that you would like to see happen before the project is advertised?
  • [2013-02-16 17:14:26] <poux2> Thomas_UK: for me it would be a great help if there was an WMF-appoved translation of he eligibility criteria in German
  • [2013-02-16 17:14:37] <westand> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FF_portal is our "landing page" correct?
  • [2013-02-16 17:15:00] <Thomas_UK> westand: correct
  • [2013-02-16 17:15:06] <poux2> Thomas_UK: I tried to do it myself, but it is rather difficult and I think this must be very accurate
  • [2013-02-16 17:15:48] <westand> "How do I ask for money?"
  • [2013-02-16 17:15:54] <westand> is a point that is very unclear to me
  • [2013-02-16 17:15:59] <Thomas_UK> poux2: i can ask the wmf for that approved translation, if you agree.
  • [2013-02-16 17:16:14] <poux2> Thomas_UK: that would be great
  • [2013-02-16 17:16:15] <westand> The "member" tab has a place for suggestion; but the language implies it is only US who can use that
  • [2013-02-16 17:16:54] <Thomas_UK> westand: i see your point. would you be interested to restructure the portal to better reflect what you are suggesting?
  • [2013-02-16 17:17:27] <westand> I'd like some consensus, first... Is that link only for us?
  • [2013-02-16 17:17:41] <westand> There needs to be a talk page or dumping place of some kind
  • [2013-02-16 17:17:47] <Thomas_UK> westand: I think it is worth trying it.
  • [2013-02-16 17:18:01] <westand> where the average member of the public can request money
  • [2013-02-16 17:18:13] <westand> and then we "assign" one of us to further cultivate the idea and decide a go/no-go on funding
  • [2013-02-16 17:18:16] <Thomas_UK> poux2: would you mind westand trying this new structure?
  • [2013-02-16 17:18:37] <westand> otherwise, where are we linking these people to in the DE Signpost and mailing lists?
  • [2013-02-16 17:19:16] <poux2> I thought I was going to collect the requests on the germen landing page
  • [2013-02-16 17:19:24] <poux2> and then post them myself on meta
  • [2013-02-16 17:19:31] <Thomas_UK> westand:any flow funding member can decide on a go/no go.
  • [2013-02-16 17:19:49] <poux2> however, I think it shuld also be an option that people apply directly on meta, why not
  • [2013-02-16 17:19:55] <westand> poux2: I am also fine with each individual flow flunding member running their own "portal"
  • [2013-02-16 17:20:10] <westand> that would actually be easier for each individual
  • [2013-02-16 17:20:20] <poux2> I think we should really try both
  • [2013-02-16 17:20:42] <poux2> for non-English speakers a page in their language might be more comfortable
  • [2013-02-16 17:20:43] <westand> but then we need a page on meta that (a) links to each flow funder's portal, and (b) has some description of WHAT they want to fund
  • [2013-02-16 17:20:58] <Thomas_UK> poux2: I like the possibility that any language is accepted and more than one flow funding member can check the same language requests to decide on the go/no go.
  • [2013-02-16 17:21:13] <Thomas_UK> westand: and poux2: Is there any type of project you would like to fund in particular?
  • [2013-02-16 17:21:14] <poux2> as I said, my idea was, that my roele would be to tranfer the requests to meta
  • [2013-02-16 17:22:00] <Thomas_UK> poux2: but not only trabsfering, but also deciding on those that you would like to fund, right?
  • [2013-02-16 17:22:21] <poux2> sure, I would decide and list it on meta
  • [2013-02-16 17:22:33] <Thomas_UK> poux2: ok
  • [2013-02-16 17:22:57] <westand> I feel like we have posted these somewhere before; but i like security, traffic analytics, quantified research -- I don't know much about running and funding real-life meet-ups -- If a "meet up" request hit my portal, I'd prefer to say "no" myself and hand it over to one of my FF peers with more perspective in that domain
  • [2013-02-16 17:23:21] <Thomas_UK> poux2: if we had another german speaker, he/she would also be able to transfer any sleected request, right?
  • [2013-02-16 17:23:38] <poux2> I reckon the requests will be for travel expenses to wikpedia events for example
  • [2013-02-16 17:24:02] <poux2> Thomas_UK: sure. that should be a project page open for all German speaking flow funders
  • [2013-02-16 17:24:13] <Thomas_UK> poux2: great
  • [2013-02-16 17:24:52] <Thomas_UK> westand: do you think you could create a new structure combining both your suggestion and poux2's suggestion ?
  • [2013-02-16 17:25:31] <poux2> I am not very good at creating smart fancy project pages, due to my limited knowledge of programming
  • [2013-02-16 17:25:40] -->| Mona (~Mona@63-155-239-179.frgo.qwest.net) has joined #flowfunding
  • [2013-02-16 17:25:48] <westand> that isn't my speciality either, absent the fact I can program
  • [2013-02-16 17:26:04] <poux2> It would be great if we had a template for flow funding landing pages, which can be adapted in different languages
  • [2013-02-16 17:26:26] <Thomas_UK> Hello Mona !
  • [2013-02-16 17:26:43] <poux2> I tried to copy the meta FF portal page and adapt it to Geman
  • [2013-02-16 17:26:46] <Mona> hello thomas. I finally found the right place
  • [2013-02-16 17:27:13] <poux2> hi Mona :)
  • [2013-02-16 17:27:16] <westand> I agree completely that multiple language editinos are needed on meta
  • [2013-02-16 17:27:27] <poux2> westand: it looks like this: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Poupou_l%27quourouce/FF
  • [2013-02-16 17:27:43] <Thomas_UK> westand: would poux2 's solution conver what you were suggesting?
  • [2013-02-16 17:28:48] <westand> I don't even know what I am suggesting.... I am just trying to realize whether this is being done in a centralized or distributed fashion....
  • [2013-02-16 17:28:53] <Thomas_UK> Mona: Can you introduce yourself to the other participants? I am logging this conversation and I will share with everyone what is being discussed.
  • [2013-02-16 17:29:10] <poux2> westand: I had so far assumend it was decentralized
  • [2013-02-16 17:29:24] <Thomas_UK> poux2: I see the same way.
  • [2013-02-16 17:29:49] <westand> I'm fine with that, but I think the Meta page should link to all decentralized "discussion places"
  • [2013-02-16 17:30:09] <Mona> hi I am from Concordia college in Moorhead, MN. I sometimes teach an intro psych class where students edit wikipedia pages for their research assignment.
  • [2013-02-16 17:30:28] <Thomas_UK> The flow funding project is very decentralized, but the portal (and language variations) works as a meeting point for everyone interested.
  • [2013-02-16 17:30:33] <westand> i.e., "Want funding? Contact the below FF whose area of interest most closely matches that of your project .... [table]"
  • [2013-02-16 17:31:58] <Mona> I nam interested in hearing about ideas for fundable flow-funding projects
  • [2013-02-16 17:32:11] <Thomas_UK> Meanwhile, does anyone have a project that you would like to fund in the coming months?
  • [2013-02-16 17:32:24] <Thomas_UK> Mona: me too.
  • [2013-02-16 17:33:26] <Thomas_UK> Mona: how are things going on your side?
  • [2013-02-16 17:33:27] <poux2> acutally I did not really dare to ask anyone before I got the German page ready
  • [2013-02-16 17:33:44] <poux2> But I have some people in mind whom I will approach, as soon as...
  • [2013-02-16 17:34:06] <westand> yeah; my perspective is the same as that as poux2 -- I want to understand the workflow and then open up to to the public and see what comes
  • [2013-02-16 17:34:20] <Thomas_UK> poux2: feel free to do that whenever you want it.
  • [2013-02-16 17:35:20] <poux2> Thomas_UK: Is it possible that I fund travel expenses for someone who wants to attend a wikipedia event which in itself is also funded by a different grant, from, e.g. WMDE ?
  • [2013-02-16 17:35:45] <Thomas_UK> poux2: I believe it is.
  • [2013-02-16 17:35:50] <Mona> Thomas: As you know I had approached our librarian to use the funds to get training on Wikipedia editing so that she can then train faculty & students each year on our campus. But, I was told you cannot use the funds to pay her for training.
  • [2013-02-16 17:36:58] <Thomas_UK> I believe we will learn most when we fund (or try to) in a case by case situation.
  • [2013-02-16 17:37:18] <poux2> Mona: Would you want to pay the librarian or the trainer?
  • [2013-02-16 17:37:27] <Mona> poux2: I thought the recent changes in funding criteria indicate that travel costs are not fundable either.
  • [2013-02-16 17:37:48] <poux2> Mona: ah, ok? I will have to check on that
  • [2013-02-16 17:37:59] <Mona> poux2: the librarian will be the trainer once sh takes the time to train herself
  • [2013-02-16 17:38:25] <poux2> Mona: and her own training? How would she get that?
  • [2013-02-16 17:39:38] <Mona> She'll spend two weeks in the summer going over the tutorials on Wikipedia and will complete any online ambassador traning available.
  • [2013-02-16 17:40:33] <Thomas_UK> In Mona's case, there was a change of criteria after she had already started negotiating the project. Something very frustrating. The idea behind the flow funding project is to empower you to make bold funding decisions. IN case you strongly believe someyhing should be funded, I will give all my support to try to find a way to amke it happen.
  • [2013-02-16 17:41:09] <poux2> I find it difficult to allocate the costs for this, but I do understand that she won't do it just for nothing
  • [2013-02-16 17:41:49] <westand> Suppose someone wanted to pay/reward test subjects for participating in a study; legal?
  • [2013-02-16 17:44:39] <poux2> westand: depends on the study. do you think some small give-aways fpr completing a 10 min survey or 150$ for a full day of vandal-fighting on wikipedia?
  • [2013-02-16 17:44:59] <Mona> I would really appreciate if you do that Thomas, especially that in looking through the projects that Wikimedia funded in the past I found several cases where people were paid for their time (eg. lawyers checking what the laws on copyright are in a certain country, and Wikipedia "interns" working on pages. Also, the $2000 will be no means be full compensation for our librarian's time. It
  • [2013-02-16 17:45:00] <Mona> is only a little incentive to get her involved. After this summer, she will commit to offering workshops to faculty and students on a regular basis for the forseable future. So, I feel the $2000 would be money very well spent.
  • [2013-02-16 17:45:35] <westand> The former. Definitely. In our research we sometime use Amazon Mechanical Turk, for instance, to have people label certain corpora to be used for machine learning purposes
  • [2013-02-16 17:47:58] <poux2> westand: I thinkg giveaways or sweets or something would be ok. money would also be ok, if the taks is difficult or takes a lot of time and you need a strong incentive to get the study done at all
  • [2013-02-16 17:48:43] <westand> alright, such incentives, and/or computing resources would be the route I would see some of my funding (hopefully) going
  • [2013-02-16 17:51:24] <Thomas_UK> The WMF decided to apply the Grants Program criteria also to the flow funding project, but I believe that the flow funding approach should enable its participants to fund projects with more flexibility (tarvel expenses, for example). We have to ways to approach this situation. 1) Fund projects within the criteria and 2) Fight to fund projects that do not fit exactly to the criteria. I want...
  • [2013-02-16 17:51:24] <Thomas_UK> ...every flow funding member to choose his/her own approach and I will try to help as much as I can in both situations.
  • [2013-02-16 17:51:49] <Thomas_UK> *two ways
  • [2013-02-16 17:52:13] <Mona> I would really appreciate if you do that Thomas, especially that in looking through the projects that Wikimedia funded in the past I found several cases where people were paid for their time (eg. lawyers checking what the laws on copyright are in a certain country, and Wikipedia "interns" working on pages. Also, the $2000 will be no means be full compensation for our librarian's time. It
  • [2013-02-16 17:52:13] <Mona> is only a little incentive to get her involved. After this summer, she will commit to offering workshops to faculty and students on a regular basis for the forseable future. So, I feel the $2000 would be money very well spent.
  • [2013-02-16 17:52:59] <poux2> thank you Thomas_UK , this is good to know
  • [2013-02-16 17:53:45] <Thomas_UK> We have to bear in mind that the Flow Funding pilot funding has to happen until July 20.
  • [2013-02-16 17:53:55] <Mona> Sounds good. How do we go about "Fighting", without investing too much time in the process. We are all volunteers with full time jobs & busy lives. So, I hope there is a painless way to do this.
  • [2013-02-16 17:55:06] <poux2> Thomas_UK: the translation will speed up things quite a lot for me. Maybe translation would also help othe flow funders from non-English-speaking countries to get started?
  • [2013-02-16 17:55:20] <poux2> *other
  • [2013-02-16 17:55:22] <Thomas_UK> Mona: There is no painless way. That is why you should select carefully when to foght to fund something that does not fit the criteria.
  • [2013-02-16 17:55:47] <Thomas_UK> *fight
  • [2013-02-16 17:57:45] <Thomas_UK> I want to remember that there is also plenty of room to fund initiatives that fit the new criteria. Anyways, for me the most important aspect of the pilot project is to give its members as much autonomy and power as possible and to create a dialogue with other interested volunteers.
  • [2013-02-16 17:58:17] <Mona> Right. So, back to my original question. Do you have a vision for what such projects might be for someone like me who works in academia and wants to see more academics involved in Wikipedia?
  • [2013-02-16 17:58:44] <Thomas_UK> This pilot project should be based on decentralization and trust with full transparency!
  • [2013-02-16 18:00:51] <Thomas_UK> Mona: Unfortunately I don't. But the beauty of this project is that eventually you will come across something that works just as you want and you will be able to fund it.
  • [2013-02-16 18:01:57] <westand> I need to go now that it is 13:00 -- but I have made a few edits to the flow funding main page
  • [2013-02-16 18:02:18] <Thomas_UK> everyone, 60 minutes have already passed. Do you want to carry on or stop now?
  • [2013-02-16 18:02:20] <westand> mainly the "WANT FUNDING?" point
  • [2013-02-16 18:02:52] <Thomas_UK> Should we have regular IRC meetings. If so, at what frequency?
  • [2013-02-16 18:03:30] <poux2> Thomas_UK: +1, maybe once a month?
  • [2013-02-16 18:03:41] <Mona> OK, I'll just wait & see then, Meanwhile, It would be great if you are able to negotiate more flexibility on the part of Wikimedia. Good chatting with everyone. I need to go as well.
  • [2013-02-16 18:03:53] <westand> and more details on the "Flow funders" page (where it lists us as individuals), so that a random will know who to contact
  • [2013-02-16 18:04:22] <Thomas_UK> westand: can you add more information about you? I can then ask others to follow on.
  • [2013-02-16 18:04:41] <westand> yes
  • [2013-02-16 18:04:43] <westand> writing it now
  • [2013-02-16 18:04:46] <westand> the placeholders are there
  • [2013-02-16 18:05:14] <Mona> Is it possible to create a facebook page for flow-funders? I think chatting would be much easier that way.
  • [2013-02-16 18:05:44] <Thomas_UK> Ok. Let's stop now and I will arrange for another IRC meeting in one month time.
  • [2013-02-16 18:05:56] <--| Mona has left #flowfunding
  • [2013-02-16 18:06:22] <Thomas_UK> Bye everyone and thank you!
  • [2013-02-16 18:06:56] <poux2> bye
  • [2013-02-16 18:07:02] <--| poux2 has left #flowfunding
  • [2013-02-16 18:07:06] <Thomas_UK> poux2: Thanks a lot!
  • [2013-02-16 18:07:23] |<-- westand has left freenode (Quit: Page closed)
  • [2013-02-16 18:38:33] -->| Ilario (~chatzilla@host121-206-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #flowfunding
  • [2013-02-16 18:39:23] |<-- Ilario has left freenode (Client Quit)
  • [2013-02-16 19:40:24] [INFO] Preference ``collapseMsgs is ``on.
Retrieved from "https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants:PEG/FF_portal/IRC_meeting_16Feb13&oldid=7005103"