Grants talk:Project/Rapid/Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton/Equipment for Matemateca digitalization

Hi R.T.Argenton. Thank you for this grant request. We are very interested in supporting this partnership with Matemateca and the potential for more work with other museums at the University of São Paulo. The images from the Museum of Veterinary Anatomy FMVZ USP are very impressive and of high encyclopedic value (with a very high use rate on Wikimedia projects). We have a number of questions and look forward to your answers so we can better understand the context and impact of the project.

1. As written in the Rapid Grant Guidelines, we fund "equipment to be shared amongst Wikimedia community members with a plan for use and content integration". The proposal mentions meetings between Wikimedia volunteers and the Directors of the Matemateca. Please list the other members of the project who will be involved in photographing objects and helping integrate photos on wiki.
2. After the project is over, what is the plan for sharing the equipment with other community members? Typically, we fund equipment for Wikimedia affiliates who can be responsible for making sure the equipment is shared.
3. Have other community members expressed an interest in the content to be photographed and is there a plan to use the photos in existing or new articles?
4. In terms of WMF buying the equipment, this is possible but we do not have any staff members planning to travel to Brazil in the near future.
5. What other cameras/lenses have you considered? The proposed equipment is quite expensive and there are other mid-range DSLR and mirrorless camera options out there with similar quality at lower price points.

Please let us know if you have questions about the above. Best, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 05:39, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi Alex, thanks for the answer:

1.

The following users will be involved in this project: Joalpe, Lucas.Belo, Horadrim and Sturm. These users have been active in the GLAM initiative with the Museum of Veterinary Anatomy. Horadrim is a Wikimedian-in-residence at the University of São Paulo. Photographing initially only me, all here have a very busy agenda in this project, each one in their respective roles. However I have plans to increase the amount of photographers (more at next answer).

2.

The intention is to open this equipment for the entire Wikimedia Movement in Brazil, for that, as I wrote in the grant request:

"We are planning workshops of basic and product photography, increasing the range of volunteers able to get involved with the [GLAM] programme. "

We are had positive contacts with two other museums --Museu de Geociências do Instituto de Geociências da USP and Museu da Educação e do Brinquedo -- they have signalled their interest in setting up a GLAM initiative with us. And will be better a bigger work force.

These contacts were made by the Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil, and I will be involved in these projects as well.

It is worth noticing that each of these projects will have specific needs. Metadata from Matemateca are electronic, whereas metadata from the Museum of Geosciences will have to be typed. Objects from the Matemateca are normally small or mid-size, whereas some objects from the other museums are large (i.e., the largest meteorite that is being exhibited in Brazil or the largest fossil of a mesosaurus in Brazil), or very small as some minerals. And we will have to request another grant, as we will need studio lights to the other museums, as they don't have any kind of support to that, different from Matemateca.

The Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil has agreed to be responsible for advertising and curating requests to use this equipment, at the end of this projects. This curation should be carefully made, since the equipment that is being requested is very expensive in Brazil. It will take into account both the goal of the project that is requesting the use of the equipment and an assessment of the record of the user who is requesting the equipment in our community.

3.

Pictures expect to be produced in the context of the GLAM initiative with Matemateca are of high educational value. Objects from this museum are normally intended to demonstrate visually mathematical properties that are often hard to get formally. During the metadata importation, we will identify the best articles to be illustrated by the pictures, and we stablish as a measure of success "Generate at least 100 usable images for Wikipedia, Wikibooks or Wikiversity.".

In an example of that, we can mention the work developed with Museum of Veterinary Anatomy, the integration of images that will be produced will be done by volunteers in a systematic way:

Every other week, 30 images from MAV are uploaded to the Commons (out of an expected total that could reach 400-500 images) and while the new upload is being organized (we are helping the museum director to type metadata) volunteers work on integrating content onto other projects.

A similar process could be set up with Matemateca.

As the Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil has led a program to improve content on Mathematics on Wikipedia in Portuguese, the integration should be easier than what we have been experiencing with the Museum of Veterinary Anatomy.

And others, as Darwinius in the endorsement, that is not directly involved with the programme, showed interest in the material. Remembering that this project it is just one more step in the GLAM programme at USP, and a lot of people, including civil society (a very XXI century sample), appreciated the work in progress at MAV, we cannot expect less with the Matemateca.

4.

So that's okay that we find a way to bring it, or we will need to wait for a staff to come? Importing directly to Brazil from US will literately double the amount invested. Buying it in Brazil will cost around 2'700 USD in the actual currency, however, you will need to transfer this amount of money, and its over the grant limit.

5. In the email mentioned I talk a little about the 5. item, but some public explications:

Actually I made a lot, a loooot, over 200 combinations, including third-party manufacturers, all DSLR/EVF camera manufacturers (including Pentax, Fuji...), trying to find the best cost-benefit. Some of them:

• Canon EOS 7D Mark II + Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon (1,499+799) = 2,298 USD
• Canon EOS 7D Mark II + Tamron Zoom Super Wide Angle SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 (1,499+499)=1,998
• Canon EOS 7D Mark II + Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM (1,499+799) = 2,298 USD
• Canon EOS 7D Mark II + Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 STM Lens (1,499+125) = 1,624.00 USD
• Canon EOS 80D + Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon (1,199.00 +799) = 1,998.00
• Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 + Metabones T Speed Booster Ultra 0.71x + Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 (1,297.99 + 649.00 + 799.00) = 2,817.89
• Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 + Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-140mm f/3.5-5.6 (1,297.99 + 547.995) = 1,845.98
• Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 + Olympus M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 75mm f1.8 (1,297.99 +899) = 2,196.99
• ...

The highlighted item was the best for filming, and the first thing that came in mind, away over the price point though.

I had to discard entry level bodies, as the volume of photos will ground down the equipment before we reach our goal. And some combinations will limit our work, as choose prime lens, in order to bring more sharpness, or to plummet the price (as the inexpensive 50mm).

The lens is quite expansive, however for a APS-C body it's the best option; as it's sharp, fast and most importantly in this case, zoom. We will have a very limited space to work, and with a lot of difference sizes of objects. And I'll be using my tripod that is a 50 USD one, that can handle the weight, but not able to move around and produce a good panorama.

I'm weighting the importance on the quality here, as we will invest a giant amount of energy in this project, and the focus is to create media that lasts. FPs of 2003 are being delisted, because of their "lower" quality, investing some more money to bring media that will last more, I see as reasonable.

And we are talking about over 200 objects, around 1'000 images produced stacking ~15'000 photos, and more ~1'000 photos to produce the animations; just in the first museum. Comparing to the amount invested in contests held here in Brazil, this is not a expensive investment. And it's far from the "ideal": Canon EOS 5DRS + Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM 3,699.00 + 1,749.00 = 5'448,00, or some medium/large format combination.

At the end the big fight was Nikon D7200 + Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 vs Canon EOS 80D + Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8, but as we will film some objects and I'm more used to Canons...

I also talked to photographers in the area, almost of them bring this two combination as best at this price range, however I now about your photography passion, do you have any suggestions?

Let me know if you have more questions, and I'm all ears, thanks for your time. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 15:11, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Borrow or rent equipment can be a good way to solve that demand

That is a very good initiative, but since we don't have a good way to handle and maintain equipment, probably can be a good option borrow or rent an equipment.

All big federal universities have own equipment for photo and video in media labs and communication departments. That can be a good opportunity to improve the relationship with other departments.

We have many photographers inside our community, mainly in São Paulo that can borrow or support that project without spending resources buying equipments, that will be complicated to handle and manage after that.

Including, we have cameras and lens in Rio, we can support your initiative or request someone that have equipment in São Paulo to support you. What do you think?

Regards Rodrigo Padula (talk) 11:53, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Could you provide any kind of source to support this statements?

"we don't have a good way" - First, "we" who? Your group is unable to managed? Don't worry, another group and me will deal with it, and I'm able. I even have in my curriculum works and study on durable goods management and logistics.

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"good option borrow or rent an equipment" - I would like to see data about, as far I researched renting a camera 5 days per week, during 4 months we will pay 3 cameras:

• Canon 80D: 47 USD/day (one the cheapest and more reliable in BR) 20 days in a month, 4 months, 3,760.00 USD, just the body. And having the risk of unavailability of the equipment.

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"All big federal universities have own equipment for photo and video in media labs and communication departments." - Could you prove that all of them have it? And we not even working with a federal, it's public, but not federal, it's controlled by the state Government of São Paulo (you could check up at wiki: University of São Paulo). Beyond that, museums have their own managements, and limited resources, not directly administrated by a department... if they had the resources to digitalise, they probably had already done it, as MAV did it, and we are sharing it to the humankind via Wikimedia Commons. And resource to produce "communication" material is away different from what we are talking about here, it's about the digitalization of a whole museum.

You are making statements that do not rely on facts and I think that you did not understood the size of the project or are unable to scale out the resources needed here, and consequences of a heavy use of a personal camera.

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Having you serious personal issues with volunteers of this project;

Plus Rio being 1300 km (~810 miles ) far from S.Paulo, and this will be a daily work for 3-4 months, just being the second museum of 4 confirmed;

I can't see any way to work together on this project.

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With all that being said, if keep your position that "we have cameras and lens in Rio, we can support your initiative", than you could send to us on this week, allowing us to start at next week and for the fallow 3 months at lest?

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I did not even understood the real reason why you are proposing it, I assumed good faith, however I'm not sure.

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 15:18, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

When I say WE, I mean the Brazilian community, that don't have it's own office, staff or chapter to manage and share resources like that and send it to other states and cities if necessary.

Some time ago we talked to some people from USP, UFRJ and UFF(local public universities) regarding the usage of their equipment for content digitization that is always underutilized and they were very open to cooperate and join us in GLAM projects without any additional cost. A good contact for you can be the SiBi Lab from USP, the same university of Matemateca that work exactly in that area(content digitalization and archives preservation) and have their own equipment, professionals and ways to get local funding for projects like that. I guess you can start a pilot project trough a local partnership with Matemateca that [http://matemateca.ime.usp.br/?q=quebra-simetria already have a lot of pictures and videos from it's archives on the web(CC licenses adoption will be needed) and expand it with time, to not have a underutilized equipments and resources. I can introduce you to some community members from commons, pt.wiki and local photo groups that have good equipment and for sure can join you in that effort as well. Regards Rodrigo Padula (talk) 16:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Regarding sending you an equipment, I will need just to check the insurance of the camera/lens before prepare and send it to you or try to get you a local equipment in São Paulo. We have only Nikon cameras right now, you need a FX or can be a DX camera? Rodrigo Padula (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

First, don't yell. Second if you say that "we" could not "manage and share resources like that and send it to other states and cities if necessary. " how you purposing send it for me here in SPaulo? It's a paradoxical proposition, if you can not handle, I can not accept this equipment, it is too risk for me. Specially coming from one that already treat me.^[1]

Matemateca do not have a lot, they have some, already linked in the proposal, and most of it are in a very low resolution/quality. It's important to us, for them, for Wikimedia Commons, and to increase the usability, a higher quality, and to digitalise the not yet photographed objects.

Sibi have a strict agenda, they do not have as many arms that your claiming here... Otherwise, they would have all museums already in their library, and they have... part of a activity of one. And we know them.

If there are, I'm not saying that is true, why didn't you started a GLAM with all this universities? And "we" whom? As member of "Brazilian community" never heard any of this. And where are this "complains"?

And how you can make such statements saying what we need? You didn't participate of any of discussion, do not participate of the current digitalisation of MAV, never worked anything close to this Glam project, never worked with WUCBR, with me... so this is just a superficial opinion, that I suggest keep it to ourself or prove with data that I'm wrong. You are talking about "pilot" this is our second museum, of four museums confirmed, you really do not understood what it is about... underused... our main concerned is the exactly the opposite, and you are talking about not using it??

Talking about statements and data, would you have the intention to answer any of my questions? And Bring data/source to base our arguments?

From now on, anything from you, anything without source, I will not answer, as for the last phrase of the "first" message, and the statements to stop this grant, I saw that is one more via to attack me, Joalpe or the Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil.

Nothing more to add here. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 18:07, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, what I was trying to say here is that there are many other options to get you an equipment and support locally without spending a lot of money with no chapter or office to manage that camera for long terms. WMF always have concerns regarding sending money to individuals or user groups for equipment acquisition, because it's complicated to handle after the end of the project. Or you are requesting that grant to buy a new camera for you, to store in your house? Unfortunately you can't hear any comment without start another war and have a civilized conversation. That is an open space where anybody can comment and send thoughts. But go ahead, that shows you capacity to work together with other people outside of your group and head. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 18:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

AWang (WMF) You are very kind. Although Argentom has a difficult temperament, he is a great photographer with great contributions to Commons, for sure this equipment will be well used and the all generated photos will have great value for the Wikimedia Movement. Handled with care and transparency that resource will be useful in the future not only by his team, but by other contributors as well. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 18:45, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

"Or you are requesting that grant to buy a new camera for you, to store in your house?"

>>"When it is not in use, it will be stored at Neuromat, a research institute in the same department, physically close to Matemateca, and have two Wikimedia volunteers, and a Wikipedian-in-residence working there." available at:Grants:Project/Rapid/Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton/Equipment for Matemateca digitalization.

>>"The Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil has agreed to be responsible for advertising and curating requests to use this equipment, at the end of this projects." available at:Grants talk:Project/Rapid/Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton/Equipment for Matemateca digitalization.

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 19:35, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Funding decision

Hi Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton. We appreciate the additional details you provided above, especially in terms of how volunteers will be engaged in using the photos and the workflow. It's also helpful to see which cameras/lenses were considered and the variety of objects to be photographed. While the equipment is very expensive and of higher quality than what we typically fund, we believe it is commensurate with the work the group is doing and will be able to produce high quality images of encyclopedic value that will last over time. It's great to see that you are cooperating closely with the Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil and they will be responsible for the equipment after the project is over. Please be sure to create an equipment log page similar to this one, and provide us the link. It would also be helpful to have one of the user group members confirm they will be responsible for managing the equipment in the long-term ( Joalpe ). In terms of WMF purchasing the equipment, we can do this. However, I'm still not clear how you suggest we get it to the group. Please let me know.

We were also interested in your responses to Rodrigo Padula above. One of the first questions we ask when reviewing an equipment request is if the grantee has considered options to borrow or rent the equipment, either from volunteers or other affiliates. It seems that for this project, that does not make as much sense but exploring the option is always worthwhile. We understand there are some challenges in communications and relationships between the different groups in Brazil. However, offers to support projects should be considered done in good faith (as you remarked above - thank you) and let's all remember to keep the Grants Friendly Space Expectations in mind when communicating on the grants pages. Tone can often be misinterpreted by others.

This project is approved and we look forward to seeing the images and how they will be used! Cheers, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 18:35, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Alex Wang (WMF). Thank you. I confirm I will contribute with the long-term management of the equipment. I will send you an email about a possible option for getting this equipment to us. --Joalpe (talk) 19:16, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Hooray! Thank you Alex, WMF, WUGCBR!

About the we had some of those at former WMBR (Inventário) that we list even crayons bought via Grant.

Can I put under Wikimedia Movement in Brasil, or it's better under the Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil? If so, it's not better they create it?

And João send you an email suggesting a way to bring it.

Having a page that tells that in a Grant discussion we should be friendly is sad, and symptomatic. All spaces should have a health environment, and I know that I'm in the limit or a little beyond, and for that I'm sorry, for the others, I can't control.

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 20:02, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Approval of shipping costs

This is to note we approve the increase in cost for shipping. The total for the equipment came to 2,130.51 USD. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

logbook created

Alex: Wikimedia Community User Group Brasil equipments logbook.Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 19:11, 24 November 2016 (UTC)