IRC office hours/Office hours 2009-12-11

Dec 11 15:30:21 <cary> Hi everyone
Dec 11 15:30:25 <cary> Welcome to Wikimedia Office Hours
Dec 11 15:30:32 <cary> featuring Frank Schulenburg
Dec 11 15:30:47 <cary> The head of Public Outreach of the Wikimedia Foundation
Dec 11 15:31:15 <cary> Frank, would you like to make an introductory statement?
Dec 11 15:32:09 <fschulenburg> Yes. First of all, a big thanks to all of you for joining this channel. I'm happy to answer your questions.
Dec 11 15:33:11 <DarkoNeko> hello
Dec 11 15:34:57 <cary> Thank you for being here, Frank :)
Dec 11 15:35:06 <fschulenburg> I'll start things off: The work of the public outreach team is currently focused on three projects:
Dec 11 15:36:06 <fschulenburg> 1) The "Bookshelf Project" that will create a core set of outreach materials designed to recruit new Wikipedia editors
Dec 11 15:36:44 <fschulenburg> 2) The documentation of best practices in public outreach (to prevent chapters and unaffiliated volunteers to reinvent the wheel)
Dec 11 15:37:32 <fschulenburg> and 3) The "Subject-Matter-Improvement Pilot Program" (preliminary title), a pilot project to improve the quality of Wikipedia articles in a particular subject area
Dec 11 15:37:58 <fschulenburg> You'll find descriptions of these projects on the new outreach wiki
Dec 11 15:38:09 <fschulenburg> http://outreach.wikimedia.org
Dec 11 15:38:14 <cary> Anyone who has questions should preface their question with "QUESTION:"
Dec 11 15:38:59 <Amgine> QUESTION: All these initiatives appear to focus public outreach on Wikipedia. Is this deliberate, or incidental?
Dec 11 15:39:14 <DarkoNeko> as in, not in the other projects ?
Dec 11 15:39:26 <fschulenburg> Thank you very much for your question Amgine.
Dec 11 15:39:27 <DarkoNeko> (wikibooks, etc)
Dec 11 15:40:13 <fschulenburg> You're right that our current focus is on Wikipedia. It's our biggest project and a good starting point to kick things off.
Dec 11 15:40:34 <Amgine> Why? Isn't that project already showing it has excellent public outreach?
Dec 11 15:40:47 <fschulenburg> So far, we didn't have outreach materials (like the ones that will be created as part of the bookshelf project)
Dec 11 15:41:46 <fschulenburg> and we know that there are many people that have never contributed in the past
Dec 11 15:42:13 <fschulenburg> but that are willing to help us with creating free knowledge
Dec 11 15:42:32 <fschulenburg> I'll give you an example:
Dec 11 15:43:00 <fschulenburg> People who answered our survey in fall 2008 said
Dec 11 15:43:20 <fschulenburg> that they were willing to edit, but the didn't know how
Dec 11 15:43:57 <brianmc> What group was the survey of?
Dec 11 15:44:06 <fschulenburg> and they also stated that they would contribute if they knew their contributions would be appreciated and kept
Dec 11 15:44:34 <fschulenburg> I'm referring to the general survey in fall 2008
Dec 11 15:44:55 <brianmc> so a general population, not an academic one?
Dec 11 15:45:02 <fschulenburg> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/04/16/first-preliminary-results-from-unu-merit-survey-of-wikipedia-readers-and-contributors-available/
Dec 11 15:46:12 <fschulenburg> a significant number of people who responded had a higher education
Dec 11 15:47:08 <brianmc> okay, I was curious because with the Ortega stuff there is a growing perception that Wikipedia needs more expertise to fill obscure corners
Dec 11 15:48:14 <fschulenburg> I think we all agree that in some of the more mature Wikipedia language versions readers have the perception that the "low-hanging fruits" are gone
Dec 11 15:48:51 <fschulenburg> If you look at a Wikipedia page from the standpoint of a reader
Dec 11 15:49:04 <brianmc> I'll admit it was my observation; interestingly the guys behind Diplopedia were insistent you keep the geeks out at the start
Dec 11 15:49:20 <fschulenburg> you won't easily find as many red links as 3-4 years ago
Dec 11 15:50:00 <fschulenburg> I think we have to tell people that there are many things they can help us with
Dec 11 15:50:15 <fschulenburg> and we can do that either
Dec 11 15:50:18 <brianmc> okay, Q:
Dec 11 15:50:54 <brianmc> QUESTION: What can sister projects learn from the successes of Wikipedia Academies? How would that fit for Wikiversity or Wikinews?
Dec 11 15:51:00 <fschulenburg> by creating print materials like the "Ten ways you can help us to improve Wikipedia"
Dec 11 15:51:14 <fschulenburg> or by adding new software features
Dec 11 15:51:30 <fschulenburg> like the ones I've desribed in my proposal on the strategy wiki:
Dec 11 15:51:47 <fschulenburg> http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Improving_our_platform
Dec 11 15:51:52 <Mike_lifeguard> QUESTION: Why is the textbook material on outreach.wikimedia.org not being written on Wikibooks, a project specifically intended for textbook materials, including those relating to Wikimedia (indeed, we have several stubs and one nearly complete editing wikibook already)
Dec 11 15:52:34 <fschulenburg> Let me anser Brian's question first
Dec 11 15:52:52 <Mike_lifeguard> of course
Dec 11 15:53:27 * DarkoNeko queues à question for later : QUESTION : I feel that part of the problem come from the community that tend to bite the newcomer (seen on enwiki and frwiki, not sure about the rest). Will one of your initiatives try anything to sensibilise them ?
Dec 11 15:53:51 <fschulenburg> Some time ago I've been a quite active contributor to Wikisource and to Wikiversity
Dec 11 15:55:14 <fschulenburg> and when I organized Wikipedia Academies as a volunteer in Germany
Dec 11 15:55:47 <fschulenburg> we always had presentations and workshops focused on other projects than Wikipedia
Dec 11 15:56:28 <fschulenburg> And, as an example, when we staged the second Wikipedia Academy in 2007 (focused on the humanities)
Dec 11 15:56:45 <fschulenburg> there was a huge interest in Wikisource
Dec 11 15:57:32 <fschulenburg> I'm convinced that you could easily find enough people who are interested in the so called "smaller projects"
Dec 11 15:57:43 <fschulenburg> That's one of the lessons we learned
Dec 11 15:58:53 <cary> fschulenburg, are you ready for Mike_lifeguard's question?
Dec 11 15:59:04 <fschulenburg> Mike_lifeguard: the work that's done on the outreach wiki is not only focused on the creation of textbooks
Dec 11 15:59:58 <fschulenburg> the outreach wiki is a place to share success stories, to discuss issues, to translate documents, etc.
Dec 11 16:00:29 <Mike_lifeguard> Yes, I know. However much of the content being generated is perfectly suited to have Wikibooks as a home. Why does it not make sense to work on that content at Wikibooks?
Dec 11 16:00:39 <fschulenburg> and I hope that we will be able to build a community that is interested in all questions around public outreach
Dec 11 16:01:16 <fschulenburg> I think it makes sense to have a central place for the work in a specific subject area
Dec 11 16:01:40 <brianmc> QUESTION: (Which Cary can queue up) How did outreach work out for Wikimania 2009?
Dec 11 16:01:47 <fschulenburg> but the materials can easily transferred to Wikibooks once they are finished
Dec 11 16:02:09 <Amgine> fschulenburg: Can you define 'finished' in this use?
Dec 11 16:02:11 <cary> I think that question can offer further discussion;
Dec 11 16:02:25 <cary> And I will make it a point to initiate that discussion. We have other questions right now.
Dec 11 16:02:49 <fschulenburg> Amgine: finished as in "finished in the first version"
Dec 11 16:02:57 <cary> problem come from the community that tend to bite the newcomer (seen on enwiki and frwiki, not sure about the rest). Will one of your initiatives try anything to sensibilise them ?
Dec 11 16:03:02 <cary> grrr
Dec 11 16:03:19 <cary> <DarkoNeko> QUESTION : I feel that part of the problem come from the community that tend to bite the newcomer (seen on enwiki and frwiki, not sure about the rest). Will one of your initiatives try anything to sensibilise them ?
Dec 11 16:03:20 <Mike_lifeguard> Amgine: Translation: <insert stock answer here>, now go away :(
Dec 11 16:03:30 <cary> Mike_lifeguard, that is not the case.
Dec 11 16:03:41 <Mike_lifeguard> I was specifically told to bring it up here and now
Dec 11 16:03:56 <fschulenburg> to make it clear: the materials being created as part of the Bookshelf Project are intended to be improved and further developed whenever needed
Dec 11 16:05:04 <Amgine> My interpretation of what you've said, fschulenburg, is that once an "approved" version is created, you'll allow the community of textbook developers to modify the source because you won't ever use the modified source.
Dec 11 16:05:35 <fschulenburg> the documents will be developed on the outreach wiki and we invite everyone to join in
Dec 11 16:05:38 <DarkoNeko> Amgine: it's the communicty that will use them in the end, anyway .. ?
Dec 11 16:05:39 <Mike_lifeguard> Well, to be fair, the resources are openly editable at outreachwiki.
Dec 11 16:06:17 <Mike_lifeguard> I'm simply shocked at the attempts to fragment the community (or at least, not going to any effort to foster cohesion)
Dec 11 16:06:22 <cary> I think this is an issue that deserves further consideration. But we have an hour.
Dec 11 16:06:30 <cary> Or we have 24 minutes.
Dec 11 16:06:37 <fschulenburg> Amgine: no, everyone is invited to edit the materials on the outreach wiki
Dec 11 16:07:14 <fschulenburg> Brianmc: Wikimania 2009
Dec 11 16:07:22 <cary> fschulenburg, there is an interim question
Dec 11 16:07:26 <cary> <DarkoNeko> QUESTION : I feel that part of the problem come from the community that tend to bite the newcomer (seen on enwiki and frwiki, not sure about the rest). Will one of your initiatives try anything to sensibilise them ?
Dec 11 16:07:42 <fschulenburg> ok. I'll answer the Wikimania question later
Dec 11 16:09:13 <fschulenburg> DarkoNeko: I agree with you. Part of the problem is that not everyone treats newcomers in a friendly way.
Dec 11 16:09:52 <fschulenburg> But on the other hand there is not enough understanding among non-contributors about the daily life of Wikipedians
Dec 11 16:10:00 <fschulenburg> I will give you an example:
Dec 11 16:10:17 * brianmc hides
Dec 11 16:10:29 <fschulenburg> At the Wikipedia Academy in Bergen, Norway, one of the speakers complained a lot
Dec 11 16:10:41 <fschulenburg> about the fact that one of the articles she started
Dec 11 16:10:56 <fschulenburg> was subject to a request for deletion
Dec 11 16:11:13 <fschulenburg> and she was very upset about Wikipedia
Dec 11 16:11:31 <fschulenburg> But after I showed her the earliest version of her article
Dec 11 16:11:39 <DarkoNeko> that reminds me of RMS at the last wikimania...
Dec 11 16:12:04 <fschulenburg> (that had no sources and looked like a marketing piece)
Dec 11 16:12:26 <fschulenburg> and after I told her how many bad articles the community has to deal with every day
Dec 11 16:12:44 <fschulenburg> she started to understand
Dec 11 16:12:58 <DarkoNeko> hmm
Dec 11 16:13:06 <fschulenburg> she just didn't know how many articles are created every day
Dec 11 16:13:24 <fschulenburg> So, my point is:
Dec 11 16:13:25 <DarkoNeko> (actually, how many bad articles ?)
Dec 11 16:14:10 <fschulenburg> I'm talking of bad articles and these "f***" articles that we can see on all language versions
Dec 11 16:14:18 <Mike_lifeguard> DarkoNeko: That'd be a very interesting metric. Do we have a way to measure it already? If not, measure number of articles with a lifespan of <10 days or something?
Dec 11 16:14:29 <Ziko> Question: Hi, I believe that newcomers should be approached nowadays differently from in earlier years. It is no more telling about a new web site and make them curious to edit anyhow ("It is soooo easy, just click edit click"), but to warn them that editing needs some consideration
Dec 11 16:14:30 <fschulenburg> My point is: both sides need a better understanding
Dec 11 16:14:31 <DarkoNeko> yes, but you made me wondering about the number
Dec 11 16:14:59 <fschulenburg> Non-contributors need to understand how the daily life of a Wikipedian looks like
Dec 11 16:15:24 <DarkoNeko> I see
Dec 11 16:15:30 <fschulenburg> And Wikipedians need to understand that not everyone that has problems to write a perfect article from scratch
Dec 11 16:15:37 <fschulenburg> is a vandal or a troll
Dec 11 16:16:26 <cary> <brianmc> QUESTION: How did outreach work out for Wikimania 2009?
Dec 11 16:16:32 <fschulenburg> But back to your question:
Dec 11 16:16:47 <Ziko> Darko: a week ago or so, a German Wikipedian counted on one day that de.wp deleted 600 articles, at least 500 of them were simple crap,
Dec 11 16:16:52 <Ziko> .
Dec 11 16:16:54 <Ziko> .
Dec 11 16:17:14 <cary> Ziko: #wikimedia-office-talk
Dec 11 16:17:23 <fschulenburg> Please let me know if you have ideas how to sensibilise people who are unfriendly
Dec 11 16:17:35 <fschulenburg> Or write a proposal on the strategy wiki
Dec 11 16:17:43 <brianmc> Prozac™
Dec 11 16:17:46 <fschulenburg> Every good idea is highly appreciated
Dec 11 16:17:54 <DarkoNeko> sure.
Dec 11 16:18:45 <fschulenburg> I would like to answer the Wikimania question now. Is that ok?
Dec 11 16:18:52 <cary> please.
Dec 11 16:18:53 <DarkoNeko> yes, please do
Dec 11 16:18:54 <brianmc> thanks Frank
Dec 11 16:19:24 <mpeel> Question: I worry that setting up a separate wiki for outreach and the bookshelf project sets it apart from the editing community on the projects (and I know that others have raised similar concerns). Is this seen as a problem? If so, what is being done to mitigate it? (apologies if this has alread been raised, in which case please disregard the question)
Dec 11 16:19:36 <fschulenburg> My understanding of Wikimania is: Wikimania is a community-driven event
Dec 11 16:19:38 <Ziko> Cary: ?
Dec 11 16:20:19 <brianmc> I'm generally interested in how you got government connections that might encourage academics and other literate people in the host country to get involved fschulenburg
Dec 11 16:20:49 <fschulenburg> and the community members involved in the planning should decide whether they want to organize a separate track for newcomers
Dec 11 16:21:10 <fschulenburg> Personally, I like the idea very much
Dec 11 16:21:31 <fschulenburg> and just yesterday I had a conversation with
Dec 11 16:21:49 <fschulenburg> the two Wikipedians from Poland (Gdansk, Wikimania 2010)
Dec 11 16:22:04 <Amgine> QUESTION: The strategy initiative bears a very striking resemblance to the job description of Head of Public Outreach on the Wikimedia Foundation site (http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Head_of_Public_Outreach). Is the Strategy Initiative a public outreach project?
Dec 11 16:22:15 <fschulenburg> that are currently visiting us in San Francisco to talk about next year
Dec 11 16:22:34 <cary> since we have only 8 minutes left, I'm closing the questions with Amgine's
Dec 11 16:22:53 <fschulenburg> If I understood them right, they are thinking about such a track for newcomers for next year's Wikimania
Dec 11 16:23:26 <marlita> and I spoke with them today and they are considering a family or youth track
Dec 11 16:23:31 <fschulenburg> what's the next question?
Dec 11 16:24:20 <cary> <mpeel> Question: I worry that setting up a separate wiki for outreach and the bookshelf project sets it apart from the editing community on the projects (and I know that others have raised similar concerns). Is this seen as a problem? If so, what is being done to mitigate it? (apologies if this has alread been raised, in which case please disregard the question)
Dec 11 16:24:28 <fschulenburg> ah, thanks
Dec 11 16:24:29 <cary> long questions are hard to select on my Mini
Dec 11 16:25:17 <fschulenburg> Wikimedia is an international movement
Dec 11 16:25:26 <Ziko> mpeel: indeed; i am not so happy that i have to look after so many sites (meta, strategy, outreach, usability)
Dec 11 16:25:37 <fschulenburg> with more than 250 language versions
Dec 11 16:26:47 <fschulenburg> and -correct me, if I'm wrong- making the outreach pages part of the English or the Swedish or any other language version
Dec 11 16:26:55 <fschulenburg> doesn't make sense to me
Dec 11 16:27:03 <mpeel> fschulenburg: that's why we have meta
Dec 11 16:27:20 <DarkoNeko> meta contains many things already
Dec 11 16:27:37 <DarkoNeko> a separate space isn't bad, imho
Dec 11 16:28:12 <Amgine> meta *also* was the home of this effort previously, DarkoNeko.
Dec 11 16:28:12 <fschulenburg> I thought you were talking about the editing community on the projects
Dec 11 16:28:37 <cary> I think this speaks to the Wikibooks question of earlier as well
Dec 11 16:28:43 <cary> Can we move on to Amgine's question?
Dec 11 16:29:11 <mpeel> There is an ongoing problem that projects are very divided, which this is probably part of.
Dec 11 16:29:22 <mpeel> * very seperated, not divided.
Dec 11 16:29:51 <mpeel> so yes... please move on. :-) This isn't going to be answered/resolved here.
Dec 11 16:29:52 <fschulenburg> mpeel: how about if we continued this specific conversation later?
Dec 11 16:29:57 <cary> <Amgine> QUESTION: The strategy initiative bears a very striking resemblance to the job description of Head of Public Outreach on the Wikimedia Foundation site (http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Head_of_Public_Outreach). Is the Strategy Initiative a public outreach project?
Dec 11 16:30:08 <cary> while we move into a bit of overtime :)
Dec 11 16:30:08 <mpeel> fschulenburg: would be happy to.
Dec 11 16:30:27 <fschulenburg> If the new wiki is a barrier to participation we have to think about it.
Dec 11 16:30:52 <fschulenburg> Ok, next question.
Dec 11 16:31:39 <fschulenburg> No, the Strategy Initiative is a seperate project
Dec 11 16:32:02 <Amgine> <nods> Thanks!
Dec 11 16:32:03 <fschulenburg> but, you're right that thinking about strategical questions is part of my job
Dec 11 16:33:43 <cary> Well
Dec 11 16:33:45 <cary> thank you Frank
Dec 11 16:33:45 * Maximillion|away s'appelle maintenant Maximillion
Dec 11 16:34:04 <cary> I feel like we've got a lot more discussion to do.
Dec 11 16:34:09 <fschulenburg> Thanks again for your interest and your questions
Dec 11 16:34:24 <cary> But much of this can be done on the wiki and through emails and here on IRC :)
Dec 11 16:34:26 <brianmc> thanks
Dec 11 16:34:35 <cary> thanks everyone who came and showed interest.