IRC office hours/Office hours 2010-06-11

[3:30pm] cary: ==================================

[3:31pm] cary: Welcome to Wikimedia's office hours, featuring Mike Godwin

[3:31pm] Brian_S2: Where is he?

[3:31pm] Austin joined the chat room.

[3:31pm] cary: Please keep chitchat to #wikimedia-office-talk

[3:31pm] • Philippe points to mnemonic1 ... that's Mike.

[3:31pm] mnemonic1: he's in disguise

[3:31pm] cary: He is the voiced one, Brian_S2

[3:31pm] mnemonic1: with diamonds

[3:31pm] Brian_S2: Ah.

[3:32pm] cary: So, for those of you not familiar with Office hours

[3:32pm] mnemonic1: playing with his ipad

[3:32pm] cary: Mike Godwin (mnemonic1) will give a brief introduction

[3:32pm] Rolex joined the chat room.

[3:32pm] cary: After which time will be questions and answers.

[3:32pm] killiondude: there will be

[3:33pm] cary: In order to maintain ease on the moderator (me) and backup moderator (Philippe)

[3:33pm] Gordonrox24 joined the chat room.

[3:33pm] cary: Questions should be preceded with QUESTION:

[3:33pm] cary: Like so:

[3:33pm] The_12th_Doctor joined the chat room.

[3:33pm] cary: QUESTION: Mike, does Godwin's Law apply to comparisons to Stalin, too?

[3:33pm] Romaine joined the chat room.

[3:33pm] Avery_Mason:

[3:34pm] effeietsanders: QUESTION: does Godwins law apply to Dutch politics?

[3:34pm] cary: Now, without further ado, here's mnemonic1

[3:34pm] Ashlee: We need more ops in here.

[3:34pm] mnemonic1: "Michael Wayne Godwin (born October 26, 1956) is an American attorney and author. He was the first staff counsel of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and the creator of the Internet adage Godwin's Law. Since July 2007, he has been general counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation."

[3:34pm] mnemonic1: I read that somewhere

[3:34pm] Jamesofur|dinner is now known as Jamesofur.

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[3:35pm] mnemonic1: I direct legal policy for WMF, and I try as general counsel to support WMF, the projects, and the community to the greatest extent possible, in response to legal challenges and opportunities

[3:35pm] NardTheBard joined the chat room.

[3:35pm] mnemonic1: i've done three chats. this is my fourth office-hour chat

[3:36pm] FunPika joined the chat room.

[3:36pm] mnemonic1: so i'm guessing there probably aren't any conceivable questions that someone hasn't already asked me.

[3:36pm] OlEnglish joined the chat room.

[3:36pm] mnemonic1: if that's true, we can recite beatles song lyrics or do "doctor who" trivia

[3:36pm] mnemonic1: so, here i am, at your service

[3:36pm] Ashlee: How many interns do you have and are they paid?

[3:36pm] Romaine:

[3:37pm] mnemonic1: two. no.

[3:37pm] Tempodivalse: QUESTION: What, if anything, does the WMF intend to do with the wikinews.com and wikinews.net domains? Neither have been altered or updated for years.

[3:37pm] Avery_Mason: QUESTION: where was that quote from?

[3:37pm] Oberst_Prawitt: QUESTION: When Tom Baker played The Doctor, was he right not to kill the Daleks?

[3:37pm] mnemonic1: (or at least, not by me.)

[3:37pm] Jamesofur: hmmm dr. who...

[3:37pm] Ashlee: Unpaid interns make the baby Jesus cry.

[3:37pm] Blurpeace joined the chat room.

[3:37pm] Multichil: QUESTION : Mike, do you think it's possible, under US law, to license a lower resolution image under the cc-by-sa-3.0 and not affect the high resolution version?

[3:37pm] effeietsanders: mnemonic1: could you describe who you are working with? (interns, external lawyers etc) both in the US and outside?

[3:37pm] cary: Tempodivalse, first, please

[3:38pm] cary: And let's hold up on additional questions for a few minutes

[3:38pm] Philippe: Queue: Tempodivalse, Avery_Mason, Oberst_Prawitt, Multichill, effeietsanders

[3:38pm] Herodotus: Ashlee: Paid ones would make the Wikipedians cry.

[3:38pm] mnemonic1: are you asking whether we plan to acquire the wikinews.com and .net domains? we are not focusing on that yet -- no serious trademark problems with regard to wikinews.com and .net

[3:38pm] Blurpeace: FWIW, Multichil, I believe that is possible. We've done that for museums, etc.

[3:39pm] Tempodivalse: Yes. There has been some minor frustration by Wikinews editors that we've not been able to claim either of those.

[3:39pm] Oberst_Prawitt: s/minor/repeated/

[3:39pm] mnemonic1: oberst, i think the doctor should have killed the Daleks, but i know he'll never do it, or never succeed if he tries.

[3:39pm] The_12th_Doctor: QUESTION: Being non-British and non-male do i have any chance at really being the 12th Doctor ?

[3:39pm] NardTheBard: There's a female? On the Internet?

[3:39pm] Avery_Mason: >.>

[3:39pm] MC8: There was a female Doctor for Comic Relief, iirc

[3:39pm] Oberst_Prawitt: CIA

[3:39pm] Philippe: Queue: Avery_Mason, Multichil, effeietsanders

[3:40pm] britty: folks, OT should go to another channels

[3:40pm] cary: Absolutely. Lest we have to moderate.

[3:40pm] Ashlee: We should use Google Wave instead of IRC for Office hours. WMF is already secretly owned by Google anyway.

[3:40pm] mnemonic1: multichil, if i understand your question correctly, i think the question is an open one, but i favor the idea that lower-resolution images, freely licensed, are effectively licenses of the higher-resolution copies as well. no court on this.

[3:40pm] Brian_S2:

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[3:41pm] mnemonic1: avery, not sure which quote you're referring to

[3:41pm] Avery_Mason: the bio.

[3:41pm] Philippe: Queue: effeietsanders

[3:41pm] mnemonic1: comes from wikipedia entry on me

[3:41pm] Avery_Mason: Would something that long/short require attribution?

[3:41pm] Avery_Mason: OK )

[3:41pm] Avery_Mason: *

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[3:41pm] cary: mnemonic1, can you respond to Tempodivalse's follow up re: Wikinews?

[3:41pm] cary: <Tempodivalse> Yes. There has been some minor frustration by Wikinews editors that we've not been able to claim either of those.

[3:41pm] FunPika: Ashlee: Google would have put AdSense on all the wikis by now if they did.

[3:41pm] mnemonic1: i've attributed it now

[3:41pm] MC8: QUESTION: How did you get into law in the first place? Was it an ambition, or was it more along the lines of "sounded good at the time"?

[3:41pm] harriska2: QUESTION: Can questions on wikiversity and wikibooks be asked?

[3:42pm] Ashlee: harriska2: Yes.

[3:42pm] cary: Tempodivalse, can you actually make that a question?

[3:42pm] harriska2: QUESTION: As a nonprofit, we want to hire folks to write and edit material for wikiversity and wikibooks. Is there a standard form available that entrusts the products written by these people to CC or GNU licensing?

[3:42pm] Philippe: Queue: effeietsanders, MC8 (Harriska, yes)

[3:42pm] Tempodivalse: cary: it's ok, that was actually more of just a statement of fact than a question.

[3:43pm] Tempodivalse: Although I suppose I could try to rephrase it.

[3:43pm] OlEnglish: is it mandatory to prefix my question with "QUESTION:" ?

[3:43pm] cary: OlEnglish, yes.

[3:43pm] Philippe: OlEnglish: It makes life easier on cary and I

[3:43pm] mnemonic1: effeietsanders, i have two law clerks for the summer. one is subsidized by his law school. the other i think gets school credit

[3:43pm] OlEnglish: k

[3:43pm] effeietsanders: OlEnglish: is that a question?

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[3:43pm] Multichil: mnemonic1 : If this means that the higher resolution version also becomes available under the cc-by-sa-3.0, a lot of partnerships will be problematic.

[3:43pm] Chzz: OlEnglish you won't get an answer to that; you didn't say 'simon says'

[3:43pm] mnemonic1: i work with a wide range of outside counsel, some paid and some not

[3:43pm] OlEnglish: eff: ANSWER:yes it was

[3:43pm] mnemonic1: we generally pay our trademark lawyers

[3:44pm] Philippe: <koff> idle chat to #wikimedia-office-talk please.

[3:44pm] mnemonic1: we generally pay for representation in deutschland and france

[3:44pm] Tempodivalse: QUESTION: (Followup to previous question) Has any attempt been made in the past to contact the owners of the wikinews.com and .net domains?

[3:44pm] Philippe: Queue: MC8, harriska, Tempodivalse

[3:44pm] mnemonic1: but we increasingly have access to pro bono representation

[3:45pm] effeietsanders: mnemonic1: can you give an estimate of how much work you can do yourself and how much you "outsource" ?

[3:45pm] effeietsanders: (as a follow-up)

[3:45pm] mnemonic1: MC8, i used to do computer sales and support. i decided i was smarter than the lawyers i was supporting. so i went to law school. then it turned out my background left me peculiarly prepared for internet law

[3:45pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: Mr. Godwin, what do you think of the WikiNews project?

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[3:45pm] Philippe: Queue: harriska2 Tempodivalse OlEnglish

[3:46pm] mnemonic1: effietsanders, i do 100 percent of my work, and outside lawyers do 100 percent of the work i give them.

[3:46pm] mnemonic1: harriska, sure, ask about other projects. i'll answer if i can.

[3:46pm] effeietsanders: whatever...

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[3:47pm] Avery_Mason: addendum to OlEnglish's question, what do you think of the recent events on WikiNews, if you have received word of them?

[3:47pm] Philippe: Mike, harriska did ask a question.... lemme find it....

[3:47pm] harriska2: See the second question...

[3:47pm] Philippe: harriska2: QUESTION: As a nonprofit, we want to hire folks to write and edit material for wikiversity and wikibooks. Is there a standard form available that entrusts the products written by these people to CC or GNU licensing?

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[3:47pm] mnemonic1: tempodivalse, i haven't been in contact with the owners of the other domain names.

[3:47pm] Philippe: Queue: harriska2, OlEnglish

[3:48pm] Tempodivalse: Okay, thank you.

[3:48pm] mnemonic1: Avery, I try not second-guess the wikinews community's internal decisions. (or any community's internal decisions)

[3:49pm] mnemonic1: the only time i step in or offer an opinion is if a community is doing something (or about to do something) with serious external consequences

[3:49pm] OlEnglish: was that to me?

[3:49pm] killiondude: I think to both of you.

[3:49pm] mnemonic1: yes, it was to you too, OlEnglish

[3:49pm] OlEnglish: k

[3:49pm] Philippe: Queue: harriska2

[3:50pm] Tempodivalse: QUESTION: Along the basis of the arbcom.en.wikipedia.org secret wiki, would it be possible to create a special, private embargo wiki for Wikinews, for when the project does investigative/embargoed reports that Wikinewsies feel should be kept hidden from public view?

[3:50pm] killiondude: omg cabal

[3:50pm] Brian_S2: Such as?

[3:50pm] Chzz: ew

[3:51pm] Chzz: anything is *possible* - why would you *want* to?

[3:51pm] mnemonic1: harriska2, if i understand your question correctly, you're asking if we have a standard form for contributors to license their works under appropriate free licenses. i don't have one myself -- i assumed that such licenses were communicated via the interface when you contribute

[3:51pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: If a Wikinews reporter were to get in trouble with the law while they were representing Wikimedia at some event, are you obligated to defend them?

[3:51pm] Philippe: Queue: Tempodivalse OlEnglish

[3:51pm] Oberst_Prawitt: *Nobody*, as a reporter, represents the WMF OlEnglish

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[3:52pm] harriska2: QUESTION FOLLOW UP: but can't an author change the license on something they wrote? How would a nonprofit avoid that?

[3:52pm] OlEnglish: k

[3:52pm] mnemonic1: Tempodivalse, i think an embargo of senstive reporting until it is complete and fact-checked is a good idea generally. it is what professional news organizations do.

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[3:52pm] mnemonic1: OlEnglish, unfortunately I can't defend contributors directly. in special cases, i am sometimes able to find lawyers for them, sometimes pro bono

[3:53pm] geniice: QUESTION:are there any ongoing cases (not involving SCO or wikimedia dirrectly) that the community should be aware of (things that may change copyright, libel, personality rights that kind of thing)?

[3:53pm] OlEnglish: ah

[3:53pm] MC8: QUESTION: Have you ever been Godwin's Law'd out of a thread yourself?

[3:53pm] Romaine: QUESTION: if a smaller Wikipedia-project is uploading photo's that aren't free of copyright and do not have free licenses, they have been told not to do so, but still continu en do not seem to understand it, should I make this aware at the office, or else? or...?

[3:53pm] Philippe: Queue: geniice, MC8, Romaine

[3:54pm] killiondude: I would just like to take this opportunity to commend Philippe on how great he is doing.

[3:54pm] mnemonic1: geniice, there's always a certain background roar of cases or potential cases i deal with. in general, it's only a good idea to make them public if publicity will make them go away (assuming they're bad cases)

[3:54pm] OlEnglish: thanks philippe, for the good job

[3:54pm] Philippe: killiondude: i'm not sure if that's sarcasm or love, but i accept either

[3:54pm] mnemonic1: i resolved an interesting case this week -- got a DMCA takedown notice retracted, involving 3200 images

[3:55pm] mnemonic1: maybe if i'm lucky i'll get to publicize that case in a while

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[3:55pm] mnemonic1: but right now it's not a good idea.

[3:55pm] Oberst_Prawitt: Got to Stopp and Stopp

[3:55pm] mnemonic1: mc8, i've never been godwinned out of a thread myself, but ....

[3:55pm] geniice: mnemonic1 not what I meant. Not people sueing wikipedia but cases that may cause caselaw which may impact how we aproach such issues onwiki

[3:55pm] mnemonic1: my daughter likes to compare me to hitler when she's mad

[3:55pm] NardTheBard: QUESTION: The courts haven't been kind to the idea that Internet bloggers deserve the same free speech rights as the established press (As the saying goes "Freedom of the press for those who can afford one"). Do you believe the US courts would extend the full rights reporters have against things like divulging their sources to Wikinews reporters?

[3:56pm] mnemonic1: she thinks this is very funny

[3:56pm] Philippe: Queue: geniice's followup, Romaine, NardTheBard

[3:56pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: Do you ever edit Wikipedia anonymously?

[3:56pm] harriska2: Don't forget harriska2's follow up

[3:56pm] mnemonic1: geniice, there are some people who are trying to get Section 230 repealed or modified. recently discussed on Volokh's blog. i don't think it's going anywhere

[3:57pm] Philippe: harriska2: sorry, i missed it entirely

[3:57pm] mnemonic1: harriska2, i think the general answer is that free licenses are irrevocable. you can see why they'd have to be, in order to have any meaning.

[3:58pm] harriska2: Thanks

[3:58pm] mnemonic1: but we sometimes will let revokers get away with it, because it's easier than having a fight with a creator over his/her own work

[3:58pm] mnemonic1: never a good position to be in

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[3:58pm] mnemonic1: OlEnglish, i freely admit to both anonymouse and logged-in editing, but not as a function of my staff role

[3:58pm] OlEnglish: kewl

[3:59pm] Philippe: Queue: Romaine, NardTheBard

[3:59pm] harriska2: QUESTION FOLLOW UP 3: Then wouldn't there be a standard form available or should I go to an attorney?

[3:59pm] Philippe: harriska2: why don't you take it up by email at this point with Mike?

[3:59pm] Philippe: it's getting awfully specific for office hours

[4:00pm] mnemonic1: romaine, if i understand you correctly, it's not going to be the office staff that gets people to reform their uploading practices. the community needs to do that, around consensus principles

[4:00pm] Philippe: Queue: NardTheBard

[4:00pm] Romaine: which community?

[4:00pm] Romaine: of that specific project or wider?

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[4:00pm] mnemonic1: NardTheBard, i disagree with you about how the courts treat bloggers. in general, bloggers get the same protections the press does

[4:00pm] geniice: Romaine in practice you just revoke the wiki's ability to have local uploads

[4:01pm] mnemonic1: so you are probably referring to the Apple/Gizmodo case

[4:01pm] mnemonic1: the U.S. supreme court has never upheld the idea of reporter's privilege

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[4:01pm] mnemonic1: see Zurcher v. Stanford Daily (1980)

[4:01pm] MC8: QUESTION: In the case that consensus and legality clash, what's the procedure to make sure that the right channel is followed by the community?

[4:01pm] Mentifisto: Did that ever happen so far, geniice?

[4:01pm] Philippe: Queue: MC8

[4:02pm] geniice: Mentifisto de-facto yes most new wikis have uploads dissabled

[4:02pm] mnemonic1: the press is not free to act illegally in reporting stories (e.g., by conspiring with a misappropriator to get access to stolen property, or by misappropriating property directly)

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[4:02pm] harriska2: QUESTION: What is Mike's email?

[4:03pm] mnemonic1: mc8, i mostly try to give stern warnings whenever we're at a legal threshold

[4:03pm] mnemonic1: mgodwin@wikimedia.org

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[4:03pm] MC8: ah

[4:04pm] mnemonic1: i can't order anyone to stay free of legal problems. but i can let people know my opinion when they're close to a line

[4:04pm] Philippe: Queue is empty

[4:04pm] Ashlee: import Queue

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[4:04pm] Philippe: Abort! Abort!

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[4:04pm] Romaine: well, thanks for answering

[4:04pm] killiondude: l?Action=AgentTicketQueue

[4:04pm] Oberst_Prawitt: QUESTION: Have you seen the full list of questions on a US immigration form?

[4:04pm] mnemonic1: Oberst, not recently

[4:05pm] mnemonic1: romaine, the community of the wiki where the content is being uploaded.

[4:05pm] mnemonic1: imho

[4:05pm] Oberst_Prawitt: They ain't changed... Still got the 1938-1944 one

[4:05pm] Manuelt15 joined the chat room.

[4:05pm] MC8: QUESTION: So, if someone does something illegal to do with WMF projects, is it the contributor that faces legal action, or the WMF? How much indemmnity doesthe average user have?

[4:05pm] mnemonic1: the contributor is normally the person legally responsible

[4:05pm] Avery_Mason: QUESTION: were you ever contacted in regard to the English Wikipedia account creation privacy questions and if so, what was the result?

[4:05pm] Romaine: that community doesn't do anything about it, probably ten people active or so

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[4:06pm] mnemonic1: we've set up a legal framework in the USA that normally spares carriers from content decisions made by users

[4:06pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: were you concerned with the recent events in the media regarding pornography on commons?

[4:06pm] mnemonic1: that's why we such a robust web 2.0 environment, including wikipedia

[4:06pm] NardTheBard: Wikimedia is almost entirely exempt from liability as a webhost. Part of the magic of free licensing is the contributors are still the legal owners of what they write

[4:06pm] Philippe: Queue: Avery_Mason, OlEnglish

[4:06pm] mnemonic1: Avery, I wasn't contacted about account-creation privacy issues.

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[4:07pm] mnemonic1: Avery, philippe reminds me that i was reminded and that i (as i prefer to do) kicked it back to the community

[4:08pm] Avery_Mason: QUESTION follow-up: basically, do you think that allowing people not identified to the WMF see some users' IP addresses is OK if there was a disclaimer stating that the IPs would be seen by others?

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[4:08pm] Philippe: Queue: OlEnglish, Avery_Mason's followup

[4:08pm] Avery_Mason: as in, would a disclaimer effectively nullify any need to identify, assuming all other privacy policy things were followed

[4:09pm] killiondude: he's asking too many questions. be afraid, v. afraid.

[4:09pm] mnemonic1: OlEnglish, i thought the whole porn thing was a publicity move by Larry Sanger and Fox News. the simple fact is that those who look for porn don't come first to Wikipedia.

[4:09pm] MC8: QUESTION: How many legal threats/challenges/etc does the WMF get?

[4:09pm] killiondude: Of course, it was not a publicity move by Jimmy Wales.

[4:09pm] OlEnglish: haha. i thought that too

[4:09pm] Philippe: Queue, Avery_Mason's followup, MC8

[4:10pm] mnemonic1: avery, my preference is that we don't routinely allow non-identified folks access to private identifying info

[4:10pm] mnemonic1: mc8, i get new legal threats every week. sometimes i take them seriously.

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[4:11pm] MC8: Heh. How often do the serious ones come along?

[4:11pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: what is the most serious legal problem Wikimedia has faced so far?

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[4:11pm] mnemonic1: serious ones are not that frequent. maybe every couple of weeks. sometimes they increase in frequency -- sometimes the frequency declines.

[4:12pm] mnemonic1: OlEnglish, since my job is to turn serious legal threats into non-threats, i don't know how to answer you. they're generally non-threats by the time i get through with them.

[4:12pm] OlEnglish: heh awesome

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[4:12pm] OlEnglish: good answer

[4:13pm] Philippe: Empty queue....

[4:13pm] mnemonic1: i like to make threats go away. it's personally validating

[4:13pm] Tango42: QUESTION: At the moment, you are the only member of the WMF legal dept. (excl. the occasional law student). Do you feel this is sufficient for the WMF's needs? If so, do you think it will continue to be sufficient in the foreseeable future?

[4:13pm] mnemonic1: WMF staff sometimes like to watch me deal with legal threats.

[4:13pm] cary: I like to think we're all a bit a part of the legal department.

[4:13pm] OlEnglish: they get off on that huh

[4:14pm] mnemonic1: Tango42, when you get your law degree, i'll see if we can find an excuse to hire you!

[4:14pm] Tango42: I considered it, and decided I didn't like the idea of writing so many essays, so I'm going to be an actuary - sorry!

[4:14pm] NardTheBard: I can just see you on the phone, yelling at somebody "Why don't you file that writ? I'll counter-writ you do fast your head will spin"

[4:15pm] Philippe: NardTheBard: that's not so incredibly off the mark

[4:15pm] mnemonic1: right now, my capacity has not yet been exceeded. of course, i have a legal budget and significant pro bono help as well.

[4:15pm] mnemonic1: some people like to listen to me deal with legal threats on the phone

[4:15pm] Tango42: I had the pleasure of listening to Mike making legal calls - he's far too good to yell!

[4:15pm] mnemonic1: i'm not saying who

[4:16pm] Jamesofur: what is wrong with that? would be interesting

[4:16pm] geniice: QUESTION: Geographically where do threats come from. On wiki it seems pretty global but is that the case at foundation level

[4:16pm] Philippe: Interesting question, geniice

[4:16pm] cary: geniice, France.

[4:16pm] cary: 99% of them come from France.

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[4:16pm] mnemonic1: well, more serious threats come from within the USA, because we don't have a jurisdictional barrier.

[4:16pm] • Jamesofur finds that oddly not surprising

[4:16pm] mnemonic1: but, yes, we do get a lot of threats from france

[4:16pm] geniice: cary I'm aware of only two serious threats from france

[4:16pm] NardTheBard: QUESTION: If someone has a rule 34 of listening to Mike Godwin handle legal issues, would Hitler turn them off?

[4:17pm] mnemonic1: we do occasionally get the angry convicted murderer from germany

[4:17pm] Brian_S2: Ah hm.

[4:17pm] Mentifisto: Why France?

[4:17pm] Brian_S2: I've heard of him..

[4:17pm] Philippe: NardTheBard: he won't invoke the rule.

[4:17pm] Philippe:

[4:17pm] Oberst_Prawitt: Ah, yes... the RAF?

[4:17pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: Are you planning to write another book?

[4:18pm] Philippe: Mentifisto: Cary was (mostly) joking about France.

[4:18pm] NardTheBard: Phillippe: I was just being silly

[4:18pm] mnemonic1: i think one of the ironies of dirigist countries is that their citizens are more inclined to think that there's a legal remedy whenever they feel a sense of having been wronged

[4:18pm] Avery_Mason: QUESTION: has or the WMF ever had to turn over information to law enforcement officials due to a serious criminal case, and how often does that happen, if ever?

[4:18pm] Avery_Mason: *has the

[4:18pm] Philippe: Queue: OlEnglish, Avery_Mason

[4:18pm] mnemonic1: OlEnglish, i will write another book as soon as i see evidence that people read the first one

[4:18pm] MC8: Wait, there's a first one?

[4:18pm] • MC8 googles

[4:18pm] Brian_S2: Where can the book be found?

[4:19pm] OlEnglish: i read it! and if you're ever up in Vancouver, BC i'd love it if you'd do a book signing

[4:19pm] NardTheBard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-07-02/Wrestler_death

[4:19pm] • Jamesofur read it

[4:19pm] mnemonic1: there's a little thing called Amazon

[4:19pm] Oberst_Prawitt: "In all good bookshops"

[4:19pm] OlEnglish: High Noon on the Electronic Frontier

[4:19pm] mnemonic1: no!

[4:19pm] MC8: ooch. £19. Too expensive incompatible encoding

[4:19pm] • Jamesofur actually still has it 4 months over due to the school library

[4:19pm] mnemonic1: that is not my book!

[4:19pm] geniice: QUESTION: is there any way of dealing with legal questions with regards to highly non fuctional legal systems? This came up when were were trying to work out the defintion of proclamations under north korean law

[4:19pm] OlEnglish: no?

[4:19pm] MC8: QUESTION: Can you send me a review copy?

[4:19pm] mnemonic1: i only wrote the introduction to HIGH NOON

[4:19pm] Philippe: Queue: Avery_Mason, geniice

[4:19pm] OlEnglish: ahh!

[4:19pm] mnemonic1: it's by other people

[4:19pm] geniice: Avery_Mason regular wikipedians had

[4:19pm] mnemonic1: i wrote CYBER RIGHTS

[4:20pm] mnemonic1: MC8, buy the damned book!

[4:20pm] Brian_S2: Cyber Rights: Defending Free Speech in the Digital Age

[4:20pm] Brian_S2: ?

[4:20pm] mnemonic1: that's me, brian

[4:20pm] Brian_S2:

[4:20pm] MC8: QUESTION: Pweeeese?

[4:20pm] OlEnglish: (Mike Godwin article updated)

[4:20pm] Philippe: MC8, I'm not adding those to the queue, hush up now.

[4:20pm] Philippe:

[4:21pm] mnemonic1: geniice, we don't honor legal demands from bad legal systems.

[4:21pm] • MC8 buys Cory Doctorow instead

[4:21pm] mnemonic1: i decide whose system is bad enough for us not to honor it

[4:21pm] NardTheBard: Why do you listen to ours then?

[4:21pm] Philippe: Queue: Avery_Mason

[4:21pm] NardTheBard: badum tish

[4:21pm] Oberst_Prawitt: Doctorow is a hack

[4:21pm] mnemonic1: i decide whose system is bad

[4:21pm] Tango42: QUESTION: What do you mean by a "bad" legal system?

[4:21pm] • Jamesofur slaps Oberst_Prawitt with a large wet trout

[4:22pm] mnemonic1: i love my friend cory and his books, but cory would not say that he had written a book that has the same or better information as cyber rights

[4:22pm] mnemonic1: Tango42 -- obviously, i mean north korea

[4:22pm] MC8: QUESTION: What's the weirdest demand someone's made?

[4:22pm] Tango42: But what is it about it that you consider bad?

[4:22pm] mikelifeguard joined the chat room.

[4:23pm] OlEnglish: QUESTION: Would you call yourself a "hacker"?

[4:23pm] Tango42: It's laws? Or the procedure? Or the ability to enforce its rulings?

[4:23pm] Philippe: Queue: Avery_Mason, MC8, OlEnglish

[4:23pm] mnemonic1: quite frequently, people demand that an article about them be posted (undeleted)

[4:23pm] mnemonic1: damn it, i'm notable, and i'll sue you if you disagree

[4:24pm] mnemonic1: Tango, there's a lot of literature about bad legal systems, but the general rule is that bad ones only superficially resemble the rule of law, and in reality just cloak the preferences of those in power

[4:24pm] Philippe: Queue: Avery_Mason, OlEnglish

[4:25pm] Kwiki joined the chat room.

[4:25pm] mnemonic1: OlEnglish, not only do i call myself a hacker, but other people do too. (i'm a longstanding participant in the Hackers Conference, if that matters)

[4:25pm] OlEnglish: nice

[4:25pm] OlEnglish: nice nick too

[4:25pm] cary: <Avery_Mason> QUESTION: has or the WMF ever had to turn over information to law enforcement officials due to a serious criminal case, and how often does that happen, if ever?

[4:26pm] HaeB: QUESTION: The German collecting society VG Wort has set up a system called "METIS" to pay royalties to authors of web pages. To be eligible, the web page has to carry a web bug from their server (the payments are based on page impressions). Some German Wikipedians have suggested (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:METIS) that the German WP should join METIS so that Wikipedians can profit from the system, too. Would the insertion of su

[4:26pm] HaeB: ch web bugs on WP (i.e., telling METIS the IPs of our readers) be consistent with the Foundation's privacy policy in its current form?

[4:26pm] Philippe: Queue: OlEnglish, HaeB

[4:26pm] mnemonic1: avery, we turn over informaiton to law enforcement if they have a lawful and sufficient search warrant or subpoena.

[4:26pm] OlEnglish: he got mine Philippe

[4:26pm] Philippe: Thanks, OE

[4:26pm] Avery_Mason: mnemonic1: I mean, has it happened where the WMF actually has to do it and how often?

[4:26pm] • Oberst_Prawitt thinks mnemonic1 is lucky not to have to deal with Norwich Pharmical Orders

[4:26pm] GerardM- left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)

[4:26pm] Avery_Mason: not just a certain user, but like the foundation gers subpaeoned or something

[4:26pm] mnemonic1: Avery, yes, it has happened. it's pretty rare.

[4:27pm] Avery_Mason: ok.

[4:27pm] mnemonic1: i often negotiate with law enforcement to narrow the subpoena

[4:27pm] mnemonic1: HaeB, that METIS question is really outside my bailiwick. if we adopted it, we'd change privacy policies to be consistent with it, if necessary

[4:28pm] Philippe: Queue is empty

[4:28pm] mikelifeguard: o noes

[4:28pm] HaeB: mnemonic1: but it would need to be changed?

[4:28pm] mnemonic1: HaeB, i'm not saying that

[4:28pm] HaeB: ok

[4:28pm] mnemonic1: i haven't given any attention to METIS at all

[4:29pm] cary: okay, it's a good time to close

[4:29pm] mnemonic1: last question?

[4:29pm] cary: any last, quick questions?

[4:29pm] Avery_Mason: have you ever done anything illegal?

[4:29pm] Avery_Mason:

[4:29pm] Jamesofur: QUESTION: What is your feeling about the new doctor

[4:29pm] mnemonic1: avery, i've done a number of illegal things

[4:30pm] OlEnglish: me too

[4:30pm] mnemonic1: jamesofur, i am still getting used to the new doctor

[4:30pm] mnemonic1: have crush on karen gillan though

[4:30pm] Mikemoral: I've jaywalked.

[4:30pm] Jamesofur: heh

[4:30pm] cary: I inhaled.

[4:30pm] mnemonic1: she's like five-foot-11

[4:30pm] Avery_Mason: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Eleventh_Doctor_and_Amy_Pond.jpg <---

[4:31pm] mnemonic1: i appreciate tall Companions

[4:31pm] Oberst_Prawitt:

[4:31pm] MC8: Smith seems to have the same mannerisms as Tennant, and lacks the distinct change between Tennant & #9

[4:32pm] Philippe: So are we done here? Can I post the log?

[4:32pm] mnemonic1: he's still cooking

[4:32pm] Blurpeace left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)

[4:32pm] cary: Thanks all!

[4:32pm] OlEnglish: philippe: where will it be posted?

[4:32pm] cary: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[4:32pm] MC8: Moffat seems weaker though; which I'm surprised at

[4:32pm] Philippe: http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2010-06-11