IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-03-31

<StevenW> Hey everyone
<GerardM-> sgardner .... Welcome at the time when questions may be asked
<StevenW> Sue and I are just sitting down, but we can start about now. :)
<sgardner> Hello! Brion are you in the building? :-)
<brion> i'm settling in down on 3rd :D
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<GerardM-> good daytime Sue ... summertime in parts of Europe
<sgardner> Nice!!
<StevenW> brion: you can come join us in the collab space on 6 if you want!
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<sgardner> I hear you invoked more frequently every day, Brion. You are going to be doing very very important things for Wikimedia :-)
<GerardM-> Sue and Brion, how do you like the developments re WebFonts
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<brion> it does sound like i'm gonna be pretty busy :D
 GerardM-: i've been at least skimming your posts, sounds like some really good stuff going on
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<sgardner> GerardM it's summertime in San Francisco now too. It's a beautiful day here, today and yesterday. I was feeling bad for Kat who's sick. It'd be easier for her to be sick here than in DC: she could bask in the sun :-)
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<Shakata|Office> I refuse to take down the Brion shrine in the server room
<brion> as long as platforms have the font rendering engines, webfonts means we can actually push the fonts to them -- a big help!
<sgardner> There is no need to take down the shrine :-)
<ChristineM> i acutally wish it was rainy and dark again
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<ChristineM> i get more work done when it's rainy and dark
<derp> brion, any plans to allow CSS 3D in Wikimedia?
<GerardM-> well, it is where you bring offerings right ?
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<sgardner> Ariel!
<brion> derp: we'll see :D
<apergos> yo!

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<StevenW> That would be awesome.
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<brion> today i'll just worry about installing ubuntu ;)
<sgardner> Let me ask a side question before we start, and people can answer if/when they join. I'm curious to know if there's anyone from the chapters here.
<derp> you'd need a good browser
 :)

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 derp is representing the starting chapter of Wikimedia Quebec
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<sgardner> Because Eugene Eric Kim has been telling me about strategy workshops he's been doing, which I think include a postmortem of the strategy project he ran for Wikimedia. He was telling me the other day he thinks they'd be useful for chapters people.
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<ke4roh> WebGL will be offering 3D rendering shortly. Would be super cool to have such a thing to allow user manipulation of models.
<sgardner> I will go get the link and bring it back here, in case more chapters people show up and are interested.
<GerardM-> sue if we want more editors, should we not take away all the technical hurdles that ease editing in all our languages
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<sgardner> (And hi Fluffernutter :-)
<Fluffernutter> hi sgardner :)
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<Hedgehog456> ok, first time i've been here
<derp> And hi sgardner :)
<Hedgehog456> what is being discussed?
<StevenW> editor retention
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<sgardner> http://www.slideshare.net/eekim/strategic-planning-for-networks
<StevenW> links etc. are in the link in the channel topic Hedgehog456
<matanya> I'm from wikinedia-israel
<sgardner> (That's the link for the webinars that Eugene is doing.)
<Hedgehog456> What's editor retention?
 Don't editors retain themselves?
<Fluffernutter> keeping people around after their first edit, Hedgehog456
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<Hedgehog456> one tenth of them don't edit constructively though
 according to a pie i looked at

• Keegan waves at everyone
  

<Fluffernutter> that's the tenth we can afford to not retain. It's the other 9/10 that are important

• ChristineM waves at Keegan
  

<GerardM-> 90% of the administrators of the Myanmar cannot write an article of two paragraphs in 30 minutes (no citations needed)
<StevenW> Hey Keegan
<GerardM-> that is the kind of challenge we can easily fix
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<GerardM-> the nastiness of some on the more developed projects is harder
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<WereSpielChqrs> Are the connection speeds from Myanmar really that bad, or is there a problem with character sets and keyboards?
<sgardner> There's more info on Eugene's webinars here http://blueoxen.com/blog/ although I don't see a schedule for the next ones. But people could ping him I suppose, if they're interested. I think he would have lots of useful experience/information that would help anyone thinking about running a collaborative strategy process, however simple/lightweight.
<GerardM-> yes
<apergos> it's funny... I asked some friends of mine about their firsst edits (in the context of "why are you so hard on new editors? have you forgotten how it was for you?" and they all described things like "I remember it well, I copy-pasted from some web site" etc... so they would be considered "not worth keeping" today!
<Fluffernutter> well, we can talk about "the nastiness" right up until we have to define it and find out that everyone has a different idea of what's nasty
<sgardner> Okay, I am done on Eugene, sorry to side talk :-)
<juboxor> GerardM-: surely you don't mean "project" as a "project" always has an end
 by definition
<GerardM-> then it is a false friend
 for me en,wp is a project
<sgardner> Apergos: that's funny and probably true. OrderInChaos is thinking about starting a little project asking experienced editors to post their first edits, so we can all remind ourselves of our clueless early days, and how we turned out to be quite constructive in the end :-)
<Qcoder00> Hi, where is the agenda for today?
<derp> brion, we can't use external API's while using Wikipedia?
<sgardner> My first edit was definitely COI. I edited the article on the CBC.
 (When I worked there.)
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<derp> oh
<StevenW> Qcoder00, we're going to talk in general about retention of editors
<derp> tsk tsk tsk
<GerardM-> what is COI
<sgardner> Conflict of interest.
<derp> Conflict of Interest
<GerardM-> ah
<Qcoder00> StevenW: Ah
<apergos> :-D
<sgardner> Hello derp :-)
<juboxor> GerardM-: I don't see any reason for the 'pedia to stop at some point just because it's become an unbearable bureaucracy
<Qcoder00> StevenW: Am I allowed to rant?
<Fluffernutter> sgardner, i'm interested in the foundation's take on the current proposal to limit non-autoconfirmed editors' ability to create articles. The foundation people i've heard mention it seem to think it will actively run off editors?
<sgardner> juboxor: what do you mean?
<derp> :)
<sgardner> Fluffernutter, can you describe it a little more for everyone? The proposal, I mean.
<StevenW> Qcoder00, on topic rants welcome ;)
<GerardM-> Fluffernutter I take it that is for the en.wp ?
<StevenW> Yeah, that proposal is a good topic Fluffernutter, let me grab a link...
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<StevenW> Yes GerardM-
<Qcoder00> Well I'd like to have a rant that they way that certain bots work is currently off putting for new media uploaders
<juboxor> sgardner: I was exaggerating, not unbearable but a lot of bureaucracy does happen in the 'pedia
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: the premise seems to be that NPP is perpetually backlogged, which feeds into a NPP-er attitude of bitiness, and that this could remedied by limiting new editors' ability to create an article until they have some familiarity with the way the 'pedia works
 GerardM-, yes, sorry, en.wp
<GerardM-> what is NPP
<WereSpielChqrs> 25% of new editors start by creating an article, so not allowing them to do risks losing those editors
<Fluffernutter> NPP = New Page Patrol
<PeterSymonds> New page patrol, GerardM-.
<killiondude> Alphabet soup.
<Qcoder00> Fluffernutter: You mean new users have to edit articles before they can create new ones?
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<StevenW> Hi HaeB
<GerardM-> is this session about en.wp or is it about the problem in general ?
<sgardner> Juboxor, I agree with you, not arguing :-) There is lots and lots of bureaucracy, and there's no question it inhibits new people's participation. They tell us the acronyms and policy cruft is intimidating.
<HaeB> hi ;)
<Fluffernutter> Qcoder00, yes, that's what's being proposed. They would have to be autoconfirmed to start an article. Autoconfirmation means 10 edits and 4 days.
<sgardner> killiondude: yes.
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<tommorris> Qcoder00, Fluffernutter: that might make it a bit RPG-ish. "Edit 5 articles, then you level up and can start creating new articles"
<StevenW> GerardM-, the problem in general, but there has been a lot of quick response from En on the topic
<sgardner> WereSpielChqrs, hello!
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<sgardner> so why don't we talk about that proposal a little, on the assumption that although it's proposed right now for enWP, it's the kind of thing that other language versions might consider as well?
<Fluffernutter> tommorris, but autoconfirm is already required for (i think?) thinks like uploading photos, and its RPGness doesn't seem to have exploded any servers
<derp> It is.
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<sgardner> Do you folks think it would inhibit new people?
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: yes, uploading files and moving stuff
<sgardner> What is it supposed to do?
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<yannf> there is a discussion going on this very subject on the French Wikimedia list
<StevenW> Just so ppl have it, the link to the en proposal is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#requiring_autoconfirmation_to_create_articles
<Qcoder00> Another thing that might be off-putting for new users is Pending changes
<sgardner> Just read Fluffernutter. So, it is supposed to prevent newbie-biting.
<derp> Without autoconfirmation, Wikipedia might be overrun with spam.
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: I think in an ideal world, the effect would be to force editors to get an idea of how we work before they can start something that might get them bitten extremely quickly.
<tommorris> Qcoder00: it's less off-putting to users than not being able to edit at all (i.e. semi-protected)
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: of course, whether this is that ideal world or not is very debateable
<Qcoder00> There was also a suggestion all new articles should go through AFC anyway (on en)
<StevenW> I don't think anyone is talking about changing what autoconfirmation means or having it all derp, so it wouldn't affect things like semiprotection
<GerardM-> Fluffernutter have you heard of the Russian incubator for newbies ?
<tgr> Fluffernutter, hasn't autoconfirmation been required since the Seigenthaler case?
<Fluffernutter> GerardM-, i've heard about it in general terms I think, but if you'd like to explain it a bit...?
<peteforsyth> tgr: no, just account creation
<Ford> except "force editors to get an idea of how we work first" sounds great from the perspective of people who are already editors, but not so much from the other end of the learning curve
<Fluffernutter> tgr: to create an article on en.wp, you need to have an account (not be an IP), but not be autoconfirmed
<yannf> with exactly the same issue: newbies run away because of unfriendly attitude of long term users
<StevenW> Exactly Ford
<tommorris> Qcoder00: that's a rubbish idea. Should someone who has a few thousand edits have to go through AfC to add an article?
<Ford> I'm pretty sure if there had been any more hoops to jump through when I first started editing, I probably wouldn't have bothered
<sgardner> Ford, I think that's a good point.
<GerardM-> what they do is give newbies a mentor and a space. In the space they can write articles that will not be deleted as a matter of course. they learn from excercising in a safe place before the articles go in the main article space
<Fluffernutter> Ford, yeah, that's a large concern. We have to balance hoop-jumping with for-your-own-good-ness
<Qcoder00> Ford: Would you let the trainee gas fitter blow his hair off? XD
<WereSpielChqrs> The argument for stopping newbies creating articlest on EN wiki is that almost all their articles get deleted so why not just stop them creating articles. One rebuttal is that many of their articles should not be deleted, my preferred alternative is to auto prompt for a source
<Qcoder00> (Joke, but illustrative of a point I think)
<GerardM-> the result is higher retention of authors and less friction
<Fluffernutter> WereSpielChqrs: there is currently a compromise proposal on the Village Pump, I think, suggesting that we revamp the Article Wizard to basically do that sort of thing
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: I think we could do more usability testing and perhaps even automated syntax checking on Article Wizard
<Ford> newbie-biteyness is a problem that drives away new editors, but I think adding a confirmation level-up process to the front end wouldn't solve the problem, it would just stop people from showing up in the first place
<StevenW> I think the idea of giving newbies and new articles more time to develop is the right answer, but it sounds like the community (rightly) wants to still protect the mainspace from crappy articles
<yannf> GerardM-, that seems good
<GerardM-> WereSpielChqrs do you agree that the notion for "quality" has driven many people away ?
<StevenW> so I figure the best compromise is moving new articles out of mainspace somewhere, but not deleting them
<sgardner> Do people think that the Russian Incubator is warmer and more inclusive for new people, relative to the other proposal?
<Qcoder00> In terms of retaining editors, has it been considered that some attitudes might need to change?
<Fluffernutter> Ford: if you were a new editor, what would you think of, say, being forced to create a new article in your userspace until someone approved it and transferred it to main?
<tommorris> sgardner: would the Foundation be able to fund (in principle) usability studies for improving a variety of things including account signup and article creation for newbies?
<StevenW> Qcoder00, absolutely I think
<GerardM-> why approve ... you move it when ready
<sgardner> Good question Fluffernutter.
<Fluffernutter> Qcoder00: which attitudes?
<yannf> no technical solution will replace a change of attitude
<StevenW> tommorris, we already are to some degree
<WereSpielChqrs> Gerardm - I think disparate quality standards are driving people away. Many editors revert edits and delete articles out of policy
<StevenW> tommorris, one example: http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Account_Creation_Improvement_Project
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<peteforsyth> StevenW: there are so many cases though. If a topic isn't suitable for an article, is it fair to set the expectation that more work will get it there?
<GerardM-> all those editors should be blocked
<Qcoder00> Fluffernutter: For starters the 'Adversarial' style in some disscussions
 PeterSymonds peteforsyth
<tommorris> StevenW: yep, I've seen ACIP
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<StevenW> Cool
 PeterSymonds peteforsyth
 PeterSymonds peteforsyth
<Fluffernutter> Qcoder00: oh don't get me started on that. You'll be here all week watching me turn purple in the face
<GerardM-> what is ACIP
<sgardner> Tommorris, yes, definitely. I am not sure what form the usability studies would take -- meaning, I do not know if formal user studies would be best, or post-edit surveys, or some other mechanism. But yes, we want to study user behaviour.
<StevenW> blah
 sorry, tab complete
<tgr> Fluffernutter, forcing newbies to create public drafts instead of real articles could work as long as it is simple enough
 e.g. they dont need to know what the hell is 'user space'
<GerardM-> sgardner what is there to study when deletion of articles is the standard mode of operations ?
<sgardner> There is a new Editor Survey going into the field soon. Steven, do you have a link for it?
<Fluffernutter> Qcoder00 has a point that with the current article-creation proposal, we're trying to conflate bitiness and article creation when in fact, bitiness and adversarial attitudes happen everywhere, not just in NPP
<Amgine> Instant gratification.
<Ford> fluffernutter: I probably wouldn't have appreciated being treated like a second class citizen in the encyclopedia anyone can edit
<tommorris> sgardner: an acquaintance is a usability expert and now does "gonzo usability testing" - basically finds a bunch of people on Facebook that live in city X, pays them a small amount - rather than hiring a lab and so on
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<StevenW> Survey link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Editors_Survey_2011
<Fluffernutter> ah, Jamesofur, just the person we need for this topic. Autoconfirmation for article creation proposal is what we're talking about.
<GerardM-> all the money spend on studies with such a policy in place is wasted
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<WereSpielChqrs> - Fluffernutter, bitiness is not just at newpage patrol, but we lose a higher proprtion of new article creators than other newbies
<Fluffernutter> WereSpielChqrs: are there numbers backing that up?
<peteforsyth> WereSpielChqrs: +++ great observation
<Fluffernutter> (there may well be, they all kind of ran together in my head)
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: I still have the "new page patrol school" idea in the back of my mind, as a kind of parallel to the WP:NAS (new admin school)
<peteforsyth> want to see the numbers too
<sgardner> Tommorris, yes. We've done lab-based studies and they were really really useful. (Although a bit labour-intensive in terms of getting them set up and so forth.) Have you seen the videos? The result was basically: people hit Edit and many immediately panic at wiki syntax. Those who get past the syntax hurdle later face other hurdles, but wiki syntax is the first major deterrent.
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: i wish something like that existed!
<Jamesofur> WereSpielChqrs: We also keep a high percentage. 4.6% or so of the ones who's articles get kept stay which is much higher then other new users
<sgardner> Some of that got fixed with the usability work. (The syntax problems.) But there is much more work to be done there -- which is why we need Rich Text Editor.
<Amgine> en.Wikinews is trying to deal with similar issues: how to balance rewarding new contributors (by publishing their news article quickly), and the need to review articles for accuracy, sources, etc. One option they're working on is two-tier publication: an easy-to-achieve local publishing, and a peer-reviewed push publishing (to google news, etc.)
<GerardM-> how does a RTT help when the policy is delete on sight ?
 eh RTE
<sgardner> GerardM: we need basic usability because lack-of-usability is a serious deterrent to people. But we definitely need more than just basic usability. As Frank Schulenberg used to say to me, there's no point in inviting in lots of new people if we're just going to bite them.
<Bence> enough with the alphabet soup :)
<GerardM-> we bite them because the policy is DELETE
<WereSpielChqrs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mr.Z-man/newusers - 1.3% retention of article creators v 2.5% of the other newbies
<sgardner> To me, that argues for deep community work fixing the problem of people being reverted and deleted too frequently.
<Fluffernutter> i honestly think the bitiness needs to be addressed by a project-wide committment to discipline users who repeat-offend at a certain level
<sgardner> GerardM, where do you think solutions to that lie?
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<denis_o> is there a point in inviting in lots of new people if just a few of them can be helpful to wp?
<Hedgehog456> good point
<GerardM-> for me it is a community issue first
<sgardner> Fluffernutter, what would that look like? Do you mean, like a reputation system asking for feedback on people's behaviour. Like, reporting people as hostile?
<yannf> I agree with GerardM-
<Jamesofur> WereSpielChqrs: That's counting all article creators. If you look on the talk page there is a great graphic. The ones who's articles get kept are MUCH higher. If it's deleted it's only like 0.8%
<sgardner> denis_o, I don't think there's any reason to assume that just a few of them can be helpful.
<Ford> I agree with GerardM as well
 it is a community issyue
 issue
<Hedgehog456> I think that the community can make bans.
<GerardM-> once the en,wp killers are reformed a rich text editor will help
<sgardner> Oh hey! Let me tell you guys something Mako said to me the other day in Boston: it was really interesting.
 Does everyone know who Mako is?
<tommorris> Benjamin Mako Hill
<sgardner> Advisory Board member, Benjamin Mako Hill.
 yes
 From MIT.
<GerardM-> until that time concentrate on the projects where the technical issues prevent people from editing
<juboxor> ooh. the creds
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: there's a certain type of person who's poison to editor retention. The kind who serial-bites, the kind who confronts angrily when they needn't, etc. And I think that with adequate evidence that a person is that type and is unwilling to change, they ought to be thanked for their service but asked to leave. I realize this makes me rather extremist, though

• peteforsyth perks up
  

<denis_o> sgardner: the higher the quality, the higher the hurdle to partcipate
<Qcoder00> sgardner: Isn't that what talk pages are for ?
 (re feedback system for reputation)
<GerardM-> technical issues that are not big projects
<sgardner> I was talking with Mako and Kat and SJ and Greg Maxwell. And Mako said it feels like to him that Wikipedia has become optimized to repel trolls. Lots of warnings, taggings, templates, etc.
<Ford> the pervading ideology is that the people who take out the spurious, dumb article creations of newbie editors are protecting the wikipedia, when I think it would be more useful if people considered themselves to be protecting the contributor
<Qcoder00> Who checks the Wikipedia for Libel?
<Ford> the mentoring spirit is not one you commonly encounter in wiki bureaucracy
<GerardM-> when 20 admins cannot edit two paragraphs in half an hour No citation needed, with technical issues being the culprit
 then there is an easy profit
<sgardner> And, he says, trolls (pranksters, spammers, etc.) are the only people who will be completely resilient against warnings. They just don't care, by definition. It will not deter them. But who it DOES deter is good-faith nice people who want to help. THEY are the people who will be deterred by the bristling warnings everywhere.
<GerardM-> because these people welcome EVERY newbie
<sgardner> So, our warnings are having the opposite effect of what we want. I thought that was very astute.
<tommorris> but mentoring is hard, unrewarding work.
<Ford> yes
<GerardM-> tommorris you are wrong
<StevenW> It is hard.
<peteforsyth> sgardner: it's a good observation. but day-to-day Wikipedia work often reveals newbies who appreciate the clarity of the banners
<Ford> whereas dumping templates is easy
<GerardM-> it makes you scale and is therefore rewarding
<Ford> dumping templates on people'
<Qcoder00> tommorris: So's 'flushing' a sewer, but someone has to do it...
<Ford> s talkpages I mean
<peteforsyth> and the banners have gotten better worded over time.
<sgardner> What Mako said reminded me of what Jimmy used to say about steak restaurants. Does anyone remember his old analogy?
<peteforsyth> Some research around this, I think, would be really valuable.
<Fluffernutter> Mentoring also requires far, far more time investment than tagging an article for deletion, notability, etc. And not everyone has the time or energy to devote to long-term incubation
<Jamesofur> Is that true? I never really found them clear or nice :)
<peteforsyth> yes, it's a great one -- cages and knives :)
<apergos> no I don't (remember the analogy)
<sgardner> peteforsyth: yes!
<Qcoder00> Fluffernutter: There need to be some Level 0 templates...
<GerardM-> templates will not hel[
<Fluffernutter> Qcoder00: the level-1 templates tend to be fairly gentle
<Ford> yes, Fluffernutter, which is why behaviors of biteyness are privileged
<GerardM-> I hate templates as one obstruction to editing
<peteforsyth> apergos: if a restaurant were optimized for safetly, there would be cages around diners so they don't stab each other
<Qcoder00> I.E Instead of the ' You have uploaded an image with no source- Go to Jail ' you need a ' Excuse me did you forget to add a source ?' message
<Fluffernutter> Ford: yes, i think it's at least partially a side effect of the speed of work
<Amgine> <nods with GerardM-> Over-templatification is newb-killing\
<apergos> it's understandable that many editors want to work on making the content as good as possible (weeding out the crap)
<StevenW> Qcoder00, right. But I think it's not just the wrong language in existing templates...
<tommorris> we talking WP:TC type templates (tags) or user warning templates?
<apergos> people very focused on that should probably not be the people looking at new edits
<StevenW> It's lack of positive feedback along with negative feedback, even if it's gently negative
<sgardner> Jimmy said that when he talked about starting Wikipedia, people thought he was crazy. He made the analogy that it was as though he had proposed starting the concept of "a restaurant" before there were any restaurants. And it was as though people had said to him, "you can't open a restaurant! People will get drunk and there will be knives on the tables and hot soup. And they will stab each other and throw hot food everywhere, and the police wi
 ll be there every night." And Jimmy said that no, we don't design for horrible people, we design for good people.
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<peteforsyth> Amgine: GerardM- there are two different points it's important not to conflate: (1) OVER-use of templates is bad and (2) use of templates is bad
<Fluffernutter> Ford: but we have a community of NPPers who (and I'm going to be evil and label based on guesswork here) are a bit ADD. They're happy to patrol, actions which take a minute or two per, but getting them to incubate and guide articles or users is going to be a big challenge
<GerardM-> the notion that we have to be speedy KILLS what we want to achieve
<tgr> sgardner, templates serve as a sort of safety rail, they force people to only block after a number of warnings, without them there would be more biting I think
<sgardner> And it strikes me that what Mako was saying is, we have begun to design for horrible people. Which is wrong, and won't work.
 I will read now :-)
<WereSpielChqrs> We need to analyse the effectiveness of warnings, welcomes and templates - I drafted a spec for this
<apergos> people looking at new edits should (maybe) have a laid back attitude, willing to toss the clear spam and not start to view the rest as spam. now... how to we nurture that group?
 *how do
<tgr> also, a boilerplate is definitely better than the warnings some of the patrollers would write themselves
<Amgine> peteforsyth: does use of templates make it easier for an unskilled webuser to participate?
<Qcoder00> apregos: Free chill out time? XD
<Fluffernutter> StevenW: I agree. I'd love to see templates for "Welcome to Wikipedia. The edit you made to $article was AWESOME! Thank you for using a reliable source!"
<Guide43> speedy is too speedy
<tommorris> GerardM-: the reason we are 'speedy' is because backlogs are big and there is often no way of knowing whether someone else has seen the thing: for Pending Changes we do (by definition) and for New pages we do, but for Recent Changes - there's no way of knowing whether a RC has been looked at by someone else.
<StevenW> Right
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: not to be rude, but SODOIT! I'd like to see that too
<peteforsyth> Amgine: often, yes.
<GerardM-> tommorris it is the wrong argument
<apergos> so much like patrolled changes, a way to mark a change as "looked at it"?
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: i myself am crap at templates, but i've been giving some thought to trying to learn so I can at least write a more useful welcome template
<StevenW> Yeah.
<sgardner> Fluffernutter: correct. Thanking and welcoming templates have worked, for example, for Wikia.
<GerardM-> and it is not an excuse either
<Amgine> peteforsyth: I disagree. Templates make it easier for the experienced user. They do *nothing* to make it easier for an unskilled webuser.
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: in addition, there is some pushback from the community against wikilove templates
<WereSpielChqrs> I have persuaded some newpage patrollers to instal hotcat, I think it solves th OCD thing, they can still leave their mark on every article, but seeing your new article categorised is a positive thing
<sgardner> Warning templates intimidate new people. I actually don't think that needs a lot of research: I think it's fairly obvious.
<Jamesofur> tommorris: Aye. But why should we for example be tagging an artivle minutes after creation if there is a backlog. Shouldnt we be doing the back first?
<apergos> hmm, seeing your first edit improved is exactly what we want I think
<Qcoder00> sgradner: But obvious things DO need warnings
<apergos> it's the story people get told about pedia
<Guide43> Chaosdruid has transferred a welcome template from WP-French that is useful
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<Fluffernutter> Jamesofur: the back of the backlog tends to be the tricky cases that people are leaving for "those other people who are better at this"
<GerardM-> there are two kinds of study, the one you care for its result and the ones that state the obvious
<Hedgehog456> sgardner: you propose we leave vandals with no explanation of why their actions are wrong?
<StevenW> Relevant link for what Fluffernutter is talking about, tommorris... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gadget/proposals#WikiLove
<Qcoder00> I mean , not everyone can be super guru on what is and isn't copyright clear
<sgardner> WereSpielChqrs, I believe you're correct that seeing your new article categorized feels supportive. I've had that experience.
<peteforsyth> sgardner: warning templates are not the only kind -- I generally agree with you, *and* there is research to back it up :)
<Hedgehog456> or a warning to be blocked
<tommorris> Jamesofur: I'm more referring to WP:BITE problems that come from RC patrol rather than NP. NP is fixed on that front, but has other probelms
<sgardner> Hedgehog456: I think the thing is that trolls and vandals don't care.
<tgr> Fluffernutter, a New Page Praise Patrol would be certainly useful
<GerardM-> http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.com/2011/03/what-comes-first-study-or-paradigm.html
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: my standard thing for NPP is categorising and WikiProject tagging.
<Hedgehog456> sgardner: but it is polite to tell them they may be blocked
<StevenW> So it sounds like everyone here tends to agree we have to do SOMETHING to deal with lower recruitment/retention of editors, experienced or not.
<Guide43> Welcomes provide a small library of choices for the new editor
<StevenW> But I wonder...
<Fluffernutter> tgr: there's a fledgling project going right now for experienced editors to adopt articles from NPP and guide them
<tgr> but I expect less editors would be interested than in normal patrol
<sgardner> We are currently optimizing for trolls and vandals (to repel trolls and vandals) and they don't care. We're not successfully rehabilitating them, but we ARE successfully scaring off good-faith contributors who are sensitive and afraid to make a mistake.
<tgr> which is of course a self-reinforcing problem
<Jamesofur> Yeah. And even more so things like speedy deletion templates. If i got the big red box of doom and that ugly talk page warning i'd probably leave too if it was my first edit :-/
<WereSpielChqrs> - Sue The first time someone categoried an article I contributed was as much a welcome as the welcome I received
<GerardM-> when you know that someone is a newbie, we can put them in the incubator
<tommorris> okay, what about this as a proposal: making it so it is easier to remove BITEy patrollers Rollback rights if they are Huggle/Igloo users etc.
<peteforsyth> Amgine: tough to argue about aggregate effect without data to support. But numerous newbies have told me they appreciated the links to instructions etc. provided in templates
<GerardM-> that will reduce the issue
<StevenW> I do hear some pushback on Foundation-l and onwiki about the Editor Trends Study. Do people feel like there's still a lot of doubt about the fact that we are failing to bring new people into the community?
<Qcoder00> BTW Qcoder00= Sfan00_IMG
<Guide43> Guide43=Buster7
<sgardner> Yes, I had a new article the other day that was categorized: it made me feel good, like someone was paying attention to what I was doing and implicitly endorsing/encouraging it.
<StevenW> What would help to show people that something needs to be done?
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: honestly, if i ran the world, those patrol programs wouldn't exist. They support a video game shooting mentality.
<Jamesofur> GerardM-: How ironic! Im starting up an experiment that does exactly that!
<Amgine> Peteforsyth: that's the *conten* of the template. The template itself is just confusing to a new user.
<GerardM-> when there are ways to get help and self help IRC and whatever, we can do much better
<Qcoder00> I've got a somewhat notorious reputation on images
<WereSpielChqrs> Tom - Rollback is not needed for NPP - we have little sanction if people are bitey
<GerardM-> when people come to Wikipedia they have friends ...
 why can we not ask their friends to help ?
<Guide43> friends= a good thing
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: I was more thinking RC patrolling. NPP is another matter because people don't use Huggle etc. for NPP
<GerardM-> I would like us to be more social
 and social functionality HELPS
<sgardner> GerardM, yes. What would that look like?
<Guide43> agree w/ Gerard
<Fluffernutter> sgardner, WereSpielChqrs: me too with the categorization. I create articles really rarely, and when i do i'm often cringing in my seat waiting to be yelled at for doing it. Someone adding a cat is like, "...oh. ok. they're not mad at me!"
<GerardM-> why can I be your friend on Facebook but not in WMF ?
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<juboxor> TOO MUCH ON-TOPIC! head hurts!
<apergos> actually a number of folks know no one when they make their first edit
<Qcoder00> Wikipewdia is not Facebook
 *Wikipedia
<apergos> where do they go for a friendly voice?
<peteforsyth> Amgine: I suspect we're not talking about the same sort of templates -- also, "template" is the technology, I think we have three things, not two: (1) content (2) format (3) technology
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<GerardM-> Qcoder00: what do you mean by that ?
<apergos> (and how do they know to go there?)
<tommorris> and also, a way to guide BITEy people away from newbies. think of a real life business: if you've got someone who is anti-social and not very good with people, you don't put them in Sales, you put them somewhere where they can quietly get on with things and not have to deal with the general public
<GerardM-> and why is that an answer ?
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<Fluffernutter> tommorris: yep. serial biters should not be working with new editors.
<peteforsyth> Amgine: my initial thought was about template headers on articles; but it seems to me people here are thinking more about warning templates on user talk pages
<WereSpielChqrs> Tom - I think we are fairly good about removing Rollback from misusers. People who revert as unsourced are usually careful not to rollback
<Qcoder00> Fluffernutter: You want a register of biters? :O
<sgardner> Fluffernutter, I love you. You're just like me! It's so funny -- all these people who want to help, and are cringing in the corner afraid they're doing it wrong :-)
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: I think the answer might be to try and guide them to something more productive. Like the content backlog!
<Fluffernutter> lol sgardner. Here, have a wikicookie and come sit in the corner with me :D
<sgardner> :-)
<goethe_wiki> Hi. GoEThe her from wiki.pt. Wikipedia should be getting to a point where instructions were no longer necessary.
<peteforsyth> I agree about the latter, but there's a critical issue with that: highly personalized notes (which is the way I usually do things) are TREMENDOUSLY more time consuming than a less personalized template.
 Amgine: ^^
<tommorris> would real-time chat help? instead of Huggle and NPP, the newbie is connected to a random helper in an IM-style window who can guide them through their first few edits
<Jamesofur> Someone will always tell you you're doing it wrong. But you will almost always be helping more then when you did nothing !
<peteforsyth> tommorris: YES
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: yeah, there's work to be done by people who maybe aren't that great interpersonally. However, that runs into the issue of "we can't tell anyone how to volunteer their time"
<denis_o> tommorris: great
<sgardner> Hi goethe. Wouldn't it be great if you didn't need to read a massive manual before contributing? I know that Brandon (on the staff) is obsessive about reducing the amount of instructional text.
<GerardM-> so why can I not be your friend on Wikipedia
<yannf> tommorris, I think so
<sgardner> GerardM, yes.
<GerardM-> and why can my friends not ask me for help
<apergos> oh golly, if we could boil down 200 policies to 5 paragraphs
<StevenW> word
<apergos> "to dreeeeeaam the impossible dreeeeeeam"
<Fluffernutter> peteforsyth: yeah. i try to do personal notes when i can, but that's just exponentially higher in time and energy committment required.
<peteforsyth> apergos: bookshelf
<Guide43> LOL
<tommorris> most of Wikipedia reduces to "We're writing an encyclopedia here, so don't be a dick."
<GerardM-> when you know that I am helping a friend, would that allow you to back off ?
<Qcoder00> spregos: " Tell the truth, Back up what you say, Don't be an idiot? "
<Jamesofur> Aye. We complain that the new users don't know the policies when no experienced wikipedian would know all of the, :)
 Them
<Guide43> Am I allowed to use "LOL"?
<Keegan> No one tell FT2 if we do reduce policy, please
<Fluffernutter> this reminds me of my aborted attempt at Help With Help last summer
<sgardner> Let me ask a question. Do people think it would help if we could all tag each other? Like they do with TED talks. Tags like: friendly, helpful, hostile, welcoming, wise.....
<StevenW> For sure Guide43 :)
<Qcoder00> sgradner: I don't like the idea of tagging people...
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: my initial reaction to that is to think of the ways it could be used to abuse and degrade
<Jamesofur> sgardner: I worry about that
<Qcoder00> You get mobs
<peteforsyth> sgardner: yep :)
<WereSpielChqrs> I drafted a proposal some time ago for a NPP system that would still splat te really nasty stuff on sight but give goodfaith articles a chance to be rescued before any warnings went out http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Speedy_deletion_-_24_hour_pause_for_some_articles
<StevenW> Keegan, ha!
<Amgine> peteforsyth: we can have this convo another point.
<GerardM-> easy added functionality to the Babel extension
<ChristineM> i think the positive tagging could be helpful.
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<sgardner> let me explore tagging a little further :-)
<peteforsyth> everybody will have a "troll" label, expectations will be appropriate ;)
<ChristineM> the negative tagging…. i dunno. that makes me nervous.
<goethe_wiki> sgardner, I actually proposed that same thing in the liquid threads talk page. to be able to rate comments
<sgardner> Kat! hello, sorry you are sick :-(
<peteforsyth> Amgine: glad to.
<mindspillage> sgardner: thanks...
<apergos> hello mindspillage... long time no chat
<Jamesofur> I could see things like comment rating a lot more
<StevenW> goethe_wiki, that was originally part of jorm's redesign. Not a voting system, but "helpful" and "not helpful"
<Jamesofur> Yes what steven said
<Fluffernutter> Jamesofur: comment rating, of course, sets off the "zomg this isn't a vote!!!" kneejerk...
<Keegan> I know several people who are quite nice and actually easy to work with that would be tagged difficult or hostile based on image
<GerardM-> would you trust me to do well when I am helping a friend ???
<StevenW> He's working on other things now, but the spec is still on MediaWiki.org
<sgardner> Imagine you are a new editor. We know that one of the problems new editors have is not knowing how to interpret what happens to them. They feel like "Wikipedia" has deleted their article, "Wikipedia" has reverted them. It's incredibly painful, because they feel like the system is reprimanding them, and therefore they are not wanted.
<GerardM-> would you trust me and not bite my friend ???
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: I like that idea
<Jamesofur> Fluffernutter: When we promptly say that X% support us :)
<sgardner> Wouldn't it be better if they could see that the person who reverted them has been tagged as "combative" and "unwelcoming."
<GerardM-> why can we not import our friends from Facebook and LinkedIn and have new friends as well ???
<yannf> sgardner, no
<sgardner> So that they would know that that person doesn't speak with the full authority of Wikipedia behind them, but is just one human being with opinions?
<tommorris> sgardner: if they are combatative and unwelcoming, they probably shouldn't be on the site ;-)
<sgardner> No?
<Keegan> sgardner: Or the assumption it's a paid editorial board sitting in judgment
<goethe_wiki> crowdsourcing the helpful/not helpful? Would it not reach a point where the "right" score would be the one people see?
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: no. i really don't think it would. that person *shouldn't be doing that job*. A newbie seeing that someone who's "combative" is deleting their stuff is WORSE
<StevenW> goethe_wiki, not sure what you mean.
<apergos> sgardner: I think if I knew I had to deal with some combative person to get my edit approved
<tommorris> sgardner: I think what they need to know is that if the person is being a dick, they should be able to get a second opinion
<GerardM-> labelling in this way is a negative approach ... having friends helps
<apergos> I might just go away
<yannf> if their work get reverted or deleted on sight, it doesn't matter who did it
<apergos> I mean, the project was doing fine before I showed up...
<ChristineM> i think the better tack to take is a better explanation of the community, that no one person speaks for the entirety of wikipedia
<sgardner> But we don't make those people go away.
<apergos> why would I want to go through that?
<sgardner> Right? I mean, combative and unwelcoming people do exist on Wikipedia.
<goethe_wiki> well, the score for an editor would be the average of the ratings he receives.
<peteforsyth> sgardner: one of the wikipedians I respect the most has done a very effective job of tagging herself as "not so helpful to newbies," and yet manages to not use it as an excuse/license to be rude.
<apergos> yes they do, and that's the problem!
<ChristineM> yeah but the also exist everywhere
<GerardM-> sgardner have we tried to make those people go away ???
<WereSpielChqrs> If they are combative and unwelcoming I would rather they were steered to an area of the site where they were less likely to deal with newbies
<ChristineM> s/the/they
<apergos> WereSpielChqrs: +1
<GerardM-> have we talked to them personally
<sgardner> It strikes me that if we're not going to make them go away, then we could at least label them, so people know what they're dealing with.
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: if they are combative and unwelcoming, they shouldn't be patrolling with a little "i'm mean" badge. They shouldn't be allowed NEAR the patrol
<ChristineM> i'd love to have buttons i could hand out IRL that say "combative" "negative"
<sgardner> GerardM, no, not that I'm aware of.
<mindspillage> Tagging probably doesn't help the "combative" person improve either--lots of them think they are doing a good job; once they've been labeled do they get worse or betteR?
<ChristineM> … but unfortuantely not
<denis_o> if people are combative and unwelcoming, this doesn't mean their revert was basically wrong ?
<apergos> we all choose in real life to spend more time with people that are welcoming and nicer (to us) and less time with people we perceive as jerks
 why would it be any different in wp?
<Fluffernutter> mindspillage has a good point
<StevenW> that's a great question mindspillage
<GerardM-> Can I have friends ?
<sgardner> mindspillage: I don't know. Maybe it would be helpful to them, if they don't know they are hurting people's feelings>
<yannf> Fluffernutter, agreed
<Jamesofur> denis_o: It does not, though it will often mean their followup was
<goethe_wiki> the problem with any function on Wikipedia is that the right people for the job are the ones with the less amount of free time to do it
<sgardner> But I am not really heavily advocating for negative tags.
<Amgine> Question: What does tagging users fix?
<Fluffernutter> i imagine someone labelling be "unwelcoming" after i mis-tag a CSD and...geesh. Cringe.
 be = me
<sgardner> What about positive tags?
<GerardM-> when yannf says he is helping someone, I trust him
<ChristineM> i think positive tags would be kind of nice
<ke4roh> Um, what happens when we confront the biters on their talk pages?
<WereSpielChqrs> positive tags - barnstars work
<Fluffernutter> ^
<sgardner> TED only allows a fixed set of positive tags. Like, funny, insightful, compelling, inspiring.
<GerardM-> no kittens please
<Fluffernutter> i was going to say, positive tags would be basically barnstars
<sgardner> Kittens!
<Jamesofur> WikiLove
<StevenW> Like, "GerardM knows more about localization than anyone." badge? ;)
<denis_o> and in some darker areas of wp being combative or anything like that would be of use
<GerardM-> you know how to make a cat drink ???
<peteforsyth> positive tags can feed drama, too.
<tgr> tagging content is useful because it helps navigating it
<sgardner> Yes, but positive tags, let's say in theory, would be persistent and associated with people's identity. Basically, they would follow you around the site, and be visible to everyone. (I am making all this up, to be clear. Just kicking it around as a notion.)

• Fluffernutter is opposed to any increase in what i call shiny-bauble-ism. "Oh look at MY merit badges!"
  

<Jamesofur> Everything feeds drama. Doesn't mean they aren't good :)
<killiondude> Jamesofur: >_> @ wikilove
<GerardM-> <grin> for a person knowing a lot about localisation, i have not done much
<apergos> yes GerardM-, I put a bowl of milk in front of it :-P
<tgr> not a good analogy for tagging people, which has totally different aims
<peteforsyth> users who are combative often get that level of confidence by having done some excellent work, which is highly praised by some
<Fluffernutter> because the people who are turned on by shiny baubles tend to take them as proof that they are better human beings
<ChristineM> it doesn't have to be a merit badge
<mindspillage> I've talked people down from a combative stance in private--but if label them in public, what choices do they have for getting out of it gracefully? If we accept that most of us are broken in some way that makes us not always friendly...
<ChristineM> just an additional way to say "Hey, thanks for the help"
<apergos> mindspillage: +1 also
<WereSpielChqrs> I have mixed responses when tackling biters on their talkpages, some escalate a speedy to AFD some say another admin would delete it, most are positive though
<peteforsyth> Jamesofur: not saying barnstars aren't good, only that they aren't an *unqualified* good.
<GerardM-> mindspillage: indeed
<ChristineM> if we can start using barnstars more for that… then i'd say it's a win-win
<apergos> we need generally better de-escalation skills, better communication skills, the lot
<peteforsyth> mindspillage: +++
<GerardM-> have we ever had a cognitive therapist look at us ?
 that is the kind of help we need
<Fluffernutter> I wonder...I wonder about a system that incorporated postive tagging/scoring, where users needed to have score X to be certified-patrollers (or certified-whateverers).
<StevenW> So last office hours, on the topic of positive affirmation, Sue asked everyone what they thought of the idea of adding a Wikipedia Like button...
<Qcoder00> A therapist?
<tommorris> "This user is considered by the Wikipedia community to be a dick. Please help him by being extra-nice to him so he feels guilty about being such a dick."
<Qcoder00> Why not?
<sgardner> Honestly, guys. When I first joined Wkimedia, I had to manually ask people around the office, "is GerardM a good guy," "who is this CaseyBrown guy," etc etc etc. New people don't have anyone to ask. Why shouldn't we make it easy for them?
<GerardM-> absolutely
<mindspillage> tommorris: lol...
<Jamesofur> peteforsyth: Aye. Though i admin i have a bias "we're a community we need social and supportive things like this too" attitude
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: when you put it like that, true.

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<tommorris> sgardner: we now kind of have strategies for doing that
<peteforsyth> Jamesofur: I am a user of barnstars -- really. They are good things :) did not mean to imply otherwise.
<WereSpielChqrs> I see a connection between our NPP probles and our RFA problems, many taggers don't realise their work is unappreciated until they get RFA opposes. I'm thinking about an earlier intervention system
<tommorris> I mean, if you know what you are doing, you can go and look and see if the person is a dick by looking at their contributions
<sgardner> What makes me laugh is that everyone here represents the people who would get the positive tags :-) Because you guys are all the experienced helpful ones :-)
<GerardM-> but tommorris are they functional or do they seem to be functiona
<Orionist> I guess if we make it easier for people to find help when they face a certain situation with an editor, we won't need tags.
<Fluffernutter> WereSpielChqrs: that could tie into tommorris's NPP-school proposal. I'd like to see something like that be offered.
<Keegan> So would no tags indicate the adage of "if you can't say something nice..."
<Qcoder00> sgardner: (Not related to current topic) I'd appreciate you making some time to discuss the Wikimedia Radio idea sometime...
<sgardner> Tomorris, yes, but it takes a long time to learn how to do that. And it's hard. It shouldn't be so hard; it should be visible and obvious.
<Orionist> Like a "Help" or "Live chat" button on the user's talk[age
<Jamesofur> tommorris: Reading contributions is a learned art
<GerardM-> yes
<sgardner> yes
<GerardM-> and your friends are here too ?
<Keegan> Orionist: Or if we had things called Catagories. Yeah, that's the ticket
<Qcoder00> Orionist: And who would manage this LiveChat?
<Jamesofur> I remeber some new staff members spending weeks learning how to do it
<GerardM-> want to ask their help ?
 friends are approachable
<sgardner> Hey is Orionist from Dubai?
<ChristineM> <— still learning how to read contribs
<sgardner> Or am I thinking of someone else
 ?
<WereSpielChqrs> Tom, one of the problems about reviewing speedy tagging is that most of the tags are in an editors deleted contributions
<ChristineM> i have my moments ;p
<Fluffernutter> we have a livechat now. It's called #wikipedia-en-help. It's also very intimidating, not particualarly reliable, and not always staffed.
<killiondude> Intimidating how?
<peteforsyth> sgardner: the point I've failed so many times to make is that what we need in the community is not "niceness," which is complex and highly situation dependent. It's "leadership" -- i.e., the capacity to infuse a complex situation with careful evaluation of what is the "nice," "fair", "policy-compliant" approach
 as a team
<StevenW> to non-nerds
<Orionist> sgardner: Yes, here hailing from Dubai. Hi!
<sgardner> Yay!!!!
 hello!!!!
<Keegan> Fluffernutter: Not reliable or staffed, sure. But #wikipedia-en-help intimidating? Nah
<Fluffernutter> killiondude: if you're not familiar with irc, or even chat clients in general, an irc window launching is pretty freaky
<Guide43> friends have an open-door policy
<apergos> (most people don't have a clue how to get into irc, this is the IM generation)
<Qcoder00> killiondude: ' I'm sorry sir but I don't understand sir... BOY! If you understood then you would not need to ask....' ?
<StevenW> sgardner literally said yay here :)
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<ChristineM> Keegan: to someone who doesn't understand IRC it is
<Jamesofur> Fluffernutter: I actually think en-help does an amaing amout of work well but it does not scale well if we tried to push it
<Fluffernutter> Keegan: not the people in it, i mean the mechanics of getting to it and using it
<Jamesofur> Amazing
<killiondude> Qcoder00: No, it's not like that...
<Keegan> Ah
<Jamesofur> Ahhh ok
<sgardner> Orionist is wonderful :-)
<mindspillage> There is a strong community norm against editing or removing others' words on talk pages. What if there weren't? You saw something bitey, and it was perfectly OK for you to simply remove it and replace it with something more helpfful....
<ChristineM> i was really intimidated by IRC when i first started using it
<Orionist> sgardner: thanks! you too!
<ChristineM> and i was fairly geek-minded, and more used to command line work than people are now
<Qcoder00> mindspillage: I was told you didn't edit talk pages
<tommorris> sgardner: I reckon we need to do more institutional outreach things. I was at the Cancer Research UK event on Monday in London. Great example of helping newbies get involved
<ChristineM> … 15 years later
 GAW
<Fluffernutter> mindspillage, hmmm. How would we then prevent rebound-snark about "hey, why'd you remove my contribution? you jerk!"
<apergos> mindspillage: we would have to be very careful
<Qcoder00> Now if admins were allowed to edit talk pages routinely to remove 'bitey' comments...
<mindspillage> Fluffernutter: at least that would be between two experienced users! :-)
<Fluffernutter> lol
<GerardM-> tommorris some of my friends have cancer
<apergos> once you open the door to "it's ok to edit what someone else said"
<sgardner> StevenW and I are laughing about how part of my job is apparently to express positive emotions! yay positive emotions!
<StevenW> lol
<Guide43> editing an others talk is asking for trouble
<tommorris> GerardM-: well, if they look them up on Wikipedia, they should hopefully find slightly better information on it this week than if they looked last week

• mindspillage asks for trouble sometimes, and gets it. :-P
  

<apergos> "removing a comment" wholesale
<Fluffernutter> mindspillage: i think there's some merit to the idea of being allowed to remove bitiness, but it would have to be worked very carefully
<Jamesofur> Isnt that part of all our jobs! :)
<GerardM-> tommorris you do not get my point
<apergos> that's perhaps doable, with a note as to why
<mindspillage> Fluffernutter: yep. Just throwing out crazy ideas.
<WereSpielChqrs> I find that a gentle requet on a talkpage to tone down a snarky comment usually works - and when it does hopefully the editor will be less likely to repeat
<GerardM-> I help them when I can
<apergos> but removing a phrase or a sentence in the middle or substituting language... mmmmm
<goethe_wiki> In pt.wiki we had a policy to remove outright personal attacks from talk pages or at least compacting certains unhelpful exchanges so that the conflict di not escalate, with mixed results
<Fluffernutter> I don't know if anyone other than me is familiar with Metafilter, but there is a system there where moderators will remove excessively fighty/offensive/whatever comments and drop in a placeholder summarizing what was said and why it was removed
<sgardner> yes. Metafilter is super-smart.
<Guide43> Peer pressure works...Allowing dessrecianary talk editing doesnt...it opens needless door
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: YES. +1. Metafilter is the place to look for how to not suck at community.
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<mindspillage> I used to like disemvowelling; now I just think it invites more attention to the edited comment.
<goethe_wiki> we included a link with the diff of the removal and an explanation of why the excerpt was removed
<GerardM-> I help my friends, do you trust me when I am doing that ... do you trust me enough to leave my friends alone ?
<Jamesofur> That's interesting im not familiar with them
<sgardner> WereSpielCheqrs said this: I see a connection between our NPP probles and our RFA problems, many taggers don't realise their work is unappreciated until they get RFA opposes. I'm thinking about an earlier intervention system
<GerardM-> NPP ??
<sgardner> is it worth following up on that? I am curious.
<tommorris> GerardM-: New Page Patrol
<sgardner> new page patrol?
 :-)
<apergos> suppose no one ever called anyone else a troll

• tommorris will be getting his neural interface to IRC installed any day
  

<Qcoder00> me has to go
<apergos> (at least to their face on wiki)
<StevenW> Thanks for joining us Qcoder00
<GerardM-> <grin> my friends do not trust me to know your acronyms
<apergos> what would that look like?

• Fluffernutter wonders if we can maybe hire Jessamyn West to do double-duty and help us become anti-bitey ;)
  

<Qcoder00> Woud appeciate a transcript at a later date
<sgardner> Qcoder00: bye! Nice to see you :-)
<mindspillage> I do dislike about heavily-moderated sites the inability to question the moderators.

• Qcoder00 out
  

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<Jamesofur> apergos: Or a vandal? :)
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<apergos> all those things we like to toss aorund when what we mean is "you're wrong and I want to win this one"
<sgardner> Fluffernutter, actually I think that Phoebe is actively talking with Jessamyn about how she could/might be willing to advise us.
<juboxor> hey.. how can I get one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism-only_account
<StevenW> haha
<Jan_eissfeldt> imo: if we are going to test such a system of tagging user => only by local project requests of implementation. de.wp, for examle, already tested a analogous public system in 2006, called "user rating", and we ran in substantially difficulties. the positive evaluation part has become unpopular and system was declassified as de.WP-policy in 2007. the negative part was banned in 2008
<sgardner> Aude, Anthere, hello!
<Fluffernutter> mindspillage: to harp on metafilter some more, there is also a system there where you can go to a sub-site, Metatalk, to do what screaming you need to do about why your post was deleted. There's something to be said for just getting the screaming part off the main page in question
<apergos> of course some people do troll and some people do vandalize. however....
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: oh, awesome!
<StevenW> Jan_eissfeldt, link?
<Jamesofur> Jan_eissfeldt: The positive went way before the negative? Interesting
<sgardner> Jan_eissfeldt, hello! It was nice to meet you in Berlin :-)
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: Talk, then AfD, then ANI ;-)
<GerardM-> ANI ??
<Jan_eissfeldt> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Bdk/Benutzerbewertung rests of the system, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schiedsgericht/Anfragen/Vertrauensnetz#Festlegungen arbcom vs. negative evaluations
<sgardner> interesting
<tommorris> GerardM-: Administrator's Noticeboard of Incidents
<Jan_eissfeldt> my pleasure sgardner (o:
<Guide43> Gerards..OMG
<GerardM-> <grin> whose God ?
<sgardner> Jan_eissfeldt, can you give us the gist of what happened? It was ratings not comments, and it fell into disuse?
 It wasn't tagging, right?
<ChristineM> OM$G?
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: if anything, we have too many "metatalks" and not enough people policing them. the number of noticeboards, RfCs, WIkiProjects and so on - there's a whole network of them and it is hard to get the right one
<sgardner> And, was it focused on edits or behaviour or both?
<Guide43> isnt He the same for all of us <grin.
<GerardM-> no
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: yeah, the wild west atmosphere of talky sorts of spaces would need to be streamlined
<GerardM-> Vishnu is a God
<Jan_eissfeldt> looked nearly like http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Fossa/Bewertung in practice
<tommorris> so, if someone is being a dick in a unique way, RfC is too slow, ANI is too drama queeny (and refuses to do content), some of the noticeboards get nothing done, and WikiProjects... well, that's a rant in itself
<GerardM-> so tommorris are you my friend ?

• peteforsyth friends GerardM
  

<killiondude> fb friends
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: potentially that could be an area admins could work in - to give them the sort of fiat power to remove comments - and then personally handle objections. But then that gets into admin drama, which never ends in anything but screaming.
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<tommorris> GerardM-: have you friended me or something?
<GerardM-> not precisely
<sgardner> Okay we need to wrap up pretty soon. Let me ask two questions before we do :-)
<mindspillage> I recall there being a "medication cabal" on enwiki. Strangely, people burned out on it very quickly.
 er, "mediation".
 Hah.

• Fluffernutter wants to join the medication cabal!
  

 tommorris is part of the meditation cabal
<StevenW> Freudian slip there, mindspillage? :)
<apergos> feudian slip?
<mindspillage> StevenW: probably!
<Keegan> WereSpielCheqrs said this: I see a connection between our NPP probles and our RFA problems, many taggers don't realise their work is unappreciated until they get RFA opposes. <~ +1
<apergos> (so to speak :-P :-P)
<mindspillage> apergos: nice.
<apergos> thanks!
<sgardner> 1. We talked last time about a "like" button -- allowing people to "like" editors, edits, articles, whatever. Do we like the idea of a like button?
<Orionist> agree with tommorris about noticeboards, that's why I suggested above a centralized help systm
<Anthere> hello sgarner et al
<Jamesofur> WikiProjects Do a ton of good work and i think we need to expand their role :) id be interested to hear your rant tommorris (after :) )
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<GerardM-> tommorris when we are friends, when we do trust us to be good can we look after each other and help each other ?
<Fluffernutter> tommorris, do mediation cabal cases every actually...work? I've encountered it only very rarly, and when i have, it's never seemed to actually function
<sgardner> And 2. I am curious to know what people might think of a "report" functionality. Like, "this editor was mean to me, and I want to report him."
 Thoughts?
<tgr> tommorris, on the metatalk policing thing, I think it is really sad the the number of watchers is unavaileble for all sort of not-very-serious privacy and vandalism concerns
<tommorris> Fluffernutter: I said "meditation" as in like Buddhist monks. T'was a joke.
<sgardner> (These are just notions, not at all anything serious. I am just super-curious.)
<StevenW> Report him to whom?
<tommorris> GerardM-: maybe
<apergos> hm... I think I slightly prefer 1 to 2 but am not really excited about either of them
<Fluffernutter> tommorris: d'oh. gotta stop reading so fast.
<peteforsyth> sgardner: on (1) -- the devil is so very much in the details. A well-run design process with lots of room for input is key.
<Keegan> Ah yes, just a few hours away from Wikipedia: April Fool's Day Edition®, I sure could use a like button
<tgr> automatically closing or flagging talk pages which do not have a certain limit of active editors watching them would be super-useful

• mindspillage thinks "like"-ing is Mostly Harmless, but can imagine plenty of trolly and unhelpful uses of it.
  

<Keegan> One day a year when the en.wp has a sense of humor
<WereSpielChqrs> We have a sort of like button for editors Editors can create guestbooks - so an optional system
<Jamesofur> sgardner: Are you thinking an automated system (to list them for admin review or something)
<mindspillage> "Report" would be interesting, depending on how it worked...
<GerardM-> you are effectively a friend when you to tommorris
 fo
 do
<sgardner> I'm just riffing, Jamesofur. Basically I am thinking that from the perspective of a user, being able to report a problem would be good.
<Guide43> Report them to Sue?

• Fluffernutter mostly agrees with mindspillage. It would probably turn into a friending/myspacey system. Which isn't necessarily A Bad Thing, but isn't necessarily useful
  

<sgardner> Currently it's highly non-obvious how to do that.
<Jamesofur> mindspillage: I think it has huge benefits in getting people to create accounts and get involved
<sgardner> To me, LOL.
 No! :-)
<apergos> so if we are talking about the new editor
 (first 1-5 edits)
<mindspillage> Fluffernutter: I'm also thinking of someone saying something dumb/unhelpful and lots of people "like"ing it.
<Jamesofur> sgardner: Heh riffing and yes I think it's a very interesting idea
<apergos> we want something *extremely low barrier* that helps to resolve the issue
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: the ability to report, on the front end, would be useful, i think. Our backroom reporting systems are so varied, so widespread, and so obscure, that just having one button for users to click to get to a root page for it woul dbe useful
<mindspillage> ("Never go full retard. ~~~~" (54 likes))
<apergos> low barrier in time it will take (as in it should happen immediately), in terms of effort perceived (results should be obvious almost immediately)
<Fluffernutter> on the backend, there would be screaming
<StevenW> right apergos. Maybe just an "I need help!" button would be less contentious and more err... helpful? :)
<sgardner> apergos: yeah, that's what I mean. Something that is easy for new people, and enables them to wave a kind of distress flag.
 mindspillage: lol
<apergos> a help button (perhaps it needs a different label)
<sgardner> StevenW: yeah, that could work too.
<mindspillage> I like the panic button idea.
<goethe_wiki> A I need help! button would be useful, I think
<mindspillage> (maybe a"don't panic!" button... or does Adams' estate have a claim on that? :-))
<sgardner> Ha, me too. Of course we would need to actually then help the person :-)
<tommorris> You push the panic button and Wikipedia:Don't panic comes up
<apergos> a way to invoke someone else who will help make things better immediately
<peteforsyth> sgardner: I think the factor of "how easy is it for experienced users to manage" is a critical design concern for anything in this realm. Stuff that is time-consuming will wither; stuff that makes it easy will flourish. In the past, this has led the community toward generic tagging, which isn't great; are there better ways to design efficient systems?
<Jamesofur> Agreed. I like that term too mindspillage!
<Jan_eissfeldt> apergos: +1
<WereSpielChqrs> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Help_me
<GerardM-> once panic sets in, you have already an unhealthy situation
 assistence required is much less drama queenie
<Fluffernutter> What abouyt the ability to flag comments in a way visible only to administrators? So Joe Schmoe user says something uncivil to me. I, and anyone else who thinks it needs to be dealt with, could flag it, which would put it in an admin(?) backlog for checking-over. If the reviewer found it also problamtic, they could remove the comment, talk to the commentor, etc
<StevenW> Another template we should measure use of, WereSpielChqrs...
<sgardner> Okay! I need to wrap up in a few minutes (although you all can stay, obviously). Anybody have any last things they want to talk about before StevenW and I bail out?
<juboxor> I once used this "talk on-line with our customer help" .. click and after a few seconds there was someone to help me with my HW problem.. I found it very handy but I'm not sure if that's what wikipedia needs
<Jamesofur> StevenW: That's one that with irc logs we have we could probably study
<ke4roh> Definitely let's do the 3D thing.
<juboxor> err. "chat on-line"
<Orionist> apergos +1
<GerardM-> <grin> many people here I do not know personally but they are all friends of friends it seems :)
<WereSpielChqrs> - StevenW - help me is rarely backlogged but not sure how heavily used
<goethe_wiki> Whatever system to use, it should not be another system, but perhaps replace one or more existing systems, or integrate with them
<sgardner> I consider you all my friends :-)
<Jamesofur> WereSpielChqrs: It isn't horribly obvious for people. We could make it more so

• apergos eyes sgardner warily :-P
  

<sgardner> LOL
<Fluffernutter> heh
<tommorris> {{Help me}} is a good idea, but it's still pretty hard. having it built in for new users would be pretty useful

• Fluffernutter nods
  

<tgr> sgardner, I think a useful direction could be finding out what places pressure on patrollers and looking for technical solutions
<sgardner> You people! Love and kindness are a good thing :-)

• StevenW notes that sgardner is feeling all warm and fuzzy this morning. It must be the good weather. ;)
  

<Fluffernutter> most new users aren't going to digging. they're going to not find something obvious, and giv eup
<mindspillage> We're suspicious of love and kindness. Not neutral.
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<sgardner> tgr: I totally agree with that.
 mindspillage LOLOLOL.
<Orionist> juboxor: that's exactly what I was suggesting above, a live help button that would take to, say, our help IRC channel
<tgr> "I need to delete this page right now because otherwise..." sort of thing
<StevenW> So true mindspillage.
<apergos> "you people"... you heard that folks... she just called us "you people"... ah well, better than "trolls" :-D
<Jamesofur> Aye the biggest problem is that asking them to edit the wiki to ask for help... Editing the wiki can cause frustration quickly :)
<mindspillage> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2196#comic -- makes me thinks of Wikimedians. ;-)
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: the 24 hour thing is a bloody awesome idea
<GerardM-> so lets have a therapist
<tgr> like the difficulty of following tagged pages on the long term
<sgardner> tgr: I think that's an interesting idea. We might want to have a patrollers meeting, to really dig into their experiences, issues, and so forth. I've been thinking about that.
<tgr> though AbuseFilter helped there somewhat
<apergos> one click, I think, is right
<Fluffernutter> sgardner: i think that's a great idea
<apergos> not editing, not some several step procedure
<peteforsyth> hi MarkDilley , welcome.. to the end of the hour :-/
<tommorris> sgardner: +1 on that
<mindspillage> Yeah, one click is good....t he equivalent of throwing up your hands and saying "I don't know, just helpme!"
<sgardner> So maybe we should try to get out some patrollers for the next IRC meeting, and kick it around a little. See if there's enough interesting material there to stage a workshop.
<peteforsyth> stay and chat though :)
<sgardner> StevenW can we ask patrollers to join us next time?
<StevenW> Sure.
<sgardner> All right.
<StevenW> I only gave ppl a day's notice this time. :(
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<GerardM-> sgardner HOW ABOUT THIS SUBJECT AND NOT TALK ABOUT EN.WP ???
<tommorris> sgardner, WereSpielChqrs: any consensus on building New Page Patrollers School (like New Admin School) then?
<GerardM-> we can learn from out other projects

• Fluffernutter consensuses the idea madly at tommorris :P
  

<tommorris> heh
<StevenW> consensuses is an awesome word
<WereSpielChqrs> Tom, are you at the next London meetup, can we talk there?
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<Fluffernutter> please have a NPP school so i can enroll and not be so terrified of patrolling
<sgardner> NPP school would be interesting. Let's talk about NPP next time. And GerardM is right, we do need to do a chat that's totally non-enWP-focused. StevenW, let's try to figure out a time that works for the majority of nonen people?
<tommorris> WereSpielChqrs: hopefully
<StevenW> Can do.
<GerardM-> I am really happy to advertise such a chat
<sgardner> Okay! You people! StevenW and I need to go.
<Guide43> bye
<GerardM-> have fun
<tommorris> thanks sgardner! bye
<sgardner> I shower affection and affirmation upon you all! LOL.
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<StevenW> Hey, I'm one of "those people" too, even if I have to go. ;)
<Jamesofur> Before people leave I'd like to pimp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wiki_Guides/New_pages a project looking at trying to actively incubate viable deleted/speedied articles and reach out to the new users. Was a great idea by User:Ironholds that we're just starting
<sgardner> Bye bye :-)
<Orionist> bye sgardner!
<Jamesofur> Bye sue :)
<sgardner> Okay bye guys :-)
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• mindspillage waves