IRC office hours/Office hours 2012-01-12

[2:39pm] Thehelpfulone: StevenW / sgardner: so do we know what the topic is for this office hours - perhaps updating this channel topic to reflect it?

[2:39pm] YairRand joined the chat room.

[2:39pm] TParis joined the chat room.

[2:39pm] Philippe: Thanks, Thehelpfulone

[2:39pm] Sargoth: philippe https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Initiative_gegen_den_SOPA

[2:39pm] • StevenW 

will update the channel topic

[2:39pm] • Philippe 

bookmarks, thanks, Sargoth

[2:39pm] • CJMiller 

supports Blackout Extreme

[2:39pm] Tango42: So, do we have any firm conclusions on how, if at all, SOPA would actually affect us? I've seen Geoff's description of the issue, but it contained so many ifs and maybes that I couldn't really conclude anything (typical lawyer!)

[2:39pm] Theo10011: I did hear that several new sources were mentioning Wikipedia in the strike with reddit.

[2:39pm] You changed the topic to "IRC office hours -- subject is SOPA and possible Wikimedia action against it".

[2:39pm] Theo10011: http://techland.time.com/2012/01/12/sopa-reddit-confirms-january-18-blackout-wikipedia-and-others-may-follow/?iid=tl-main-mostpop1

[2:39pm] sgardner: Thogo, Sargoth: Is there a concrete proposal for the German Wikipedia?

[2:40pm] kim_bruning: what do we think of the OPEN act, btw?

[2:40pm] paddyez: can SO name the main questions?

[2:40pm] Sargoth: see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Initiative_gegen_den_SOPA#aktuell_vorgesehene_Aktion sgardner

[2:40pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @Tango42 - let's put it this way - is Wikipedia full of copyright infringement?

[2:40pm] Thogo: eh, yes.

[2:40pm] sgardner: Sargoth: thanks -- I am reading it now via Google Translate :-)

[2:40pm] Hubertl: de:WP: 92:16

[2:41pm] Tango42: Seth_Finkelstein: Yes, but our policy is to remove it, so I don't see how SOPA really changes anything there.

[2:41pm] jwales: Hi all - I'm actually working on paid editing by PR firm issues tonight and just got lucky to be here for this.  I'm mainly going to just listen in.

[2:41pm] Seth_Finkelstein: By the way, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm very much against SOPA

[2:41pm] Philippe: Hubertl, is that 92:16 in favor of a banner, or what?

[2:41pm] tommorris: Wikipedia wouldn't have to be full of copyright infringements for SOPA to be an issue. just someone has to disagree with our interpretation of, say, fair use or Commons policy

[2:41pm] Hubertl: in favor of Banner

[2:41pm] topaz: I would like to hear the recap of the WM office discussion, if we're ready for that?

[2:41pm] SarahStierch: Yes

[2:41pm] tommorris: I mean Commons policy *other* than template:nopenis

[2:41pm] StevenW: What about the question of a blackout in DE?

[2:41pm] Sargoth: the banner links to an explanation page, most of it translations from en:sopa, , https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/11/hollywood-new-war-on-software-freedom-and-internet-innovation and geoff's blog

[2:41pm] StevenW: Or was it not proposed?

[2:41pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, at any given point in time, there's going to be some copyright infringement

[2:41pm] SpeakFree joined the chat room.

[2:41pm] Prodego: how about we just leave wikipedia alone and not do any blacking out of anything

[2:42pm] Philippe: topaz, not quite yet, i'm very interested in what the Germans were saying

[2:42pm] Prodego: sounds god

[2:42pm] Hubertl: Philippe: in favor of supporting en:WP

[2:42pm] Prodego: good*

[2:42pm] topaz: Philippe: *nod*

[2:42pm] Hubertl: not just banner

[2:42pm] Kingpin13: Prodego++

[2:42pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tommorris - that's a myth - basically a lie - that people are being fed.

[2:42pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, we catch copyright infringement pretty quick as it happens, but there's always new infringement coming in, as the old stuff gets fixed

[2:42pm] Seth_Finkelstein: I dislike that manipulation intensely.

[2:42pm] • Ironholds 

looks in, gets confused, pokes his head out again

[2:42pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, Ok, what's the truth according to you?

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[2:42pm] Thogo: those who oppose say that any action would be against our principle of neutrality.

[2:42pm] • kim_bruning 

waves to Ironholds

[2:42pm] Narson: (Such a big head, Ironholds)

[2:43pm] jwales: Seth there is no manipulation.

[2:43pm] Moonriddengirl: FWIW, we also have thousands of articles that could well contain copyright infringements waiting for somebody to review them at Contributor Copyright Investigations.

[2:43pm] Seddon|away joined the chat room.

[2:43pm] Seth_Finkelstein: There is a scaremongering that if there is a single infringment, the site goes down.

[2:43pm] kim_bruning: Moonriddengirl, Oh, oops

[2:43pm] Moonriddengirl: These have all been edited by people we know have violated copyright multiple times. :/

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[2:43pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, Ok, can you point to the language, and say what it DOES say?

[2:43pm] Prodego: I don't think Wikipedia has to worry about SOPA being passed

[2:43pm] kim_bruning: Moonriddengirl, Oh, that's a bit less bad...

[2:43pm] Prodego: it wouldn't have any real impact

[2:43pm] Sargoth: i didn't take part in the discussion but i think a blackout of Dewiki would be very hard to communicate to the readers

[2:43pm] kim_bruning: Prodego, why's that?

[2:43pm] Seth_Finkelstein: You have to go through the bill, and see all the exemptions.

[2:43pm] sgardner: Sargoth: Thanks. So it looks like deWP is in favour of enWP taking an action inside the United States, but it sounds like nobody on deWP is proposing that deWP take an action of its own. Is that roughly correct?

[2:43pm] jwales: The only scaremongering I have seen is from you, alleging that we are doing google's bidding here.  That's wrong, not that you have ever cared much about facts in your speculations.

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[2:44pm] kim_bruning: Sargoth, eswiki though... that's different, es actually voted a SOPA-like law into law recently

[2:44pm] Prodego: because we are big, and SOPA mostly takes down entire sites from what I understand

[2:44pm] Ironholds: hey, kim_bruning, Narson

[2:44pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, which exemption applies here?

[2:44pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @jwales - Absolutely false. And if you're going top use your power to personally attack me, well, what's the point of my replying?

[2:44pm] Tango42: jwales: So, what do you think the impact on the Wikimedia movement would be if SOPA passes?

[2:44pm] Hubertl: Seth_Finkelstein: an then, they will cut one extemption after another.

[2:44pm] WereSpielChequer: Based on past experience as well as the known unknowns there will be copyviolaters who we have not yet detected

[2:44pm] Sargoth: sgardner: I think they favor this banner with the big red dot :)

[2:44pm] kim_bruning: hello jwales, long time no see

[2:44pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: we already get demented legal threats from people who have no understanding of the basics of copyright law. some of those people have LOTS of money. what's right or wrong in the law takes second fiddle to what people armed with lawyers can do.

[2:45pm] ErrantX: jwales: how does that help? :S

[2:45pm] tommorris: it isn't explicitly about what the law says, it's about what the law enables

[2:45pm] TParis: +1 Like to tommorris

[2:45pm] Kingpin13: tommorris, now that's scaremongering

[2:45pm] Philippe: Yes, tommorris, I think that's correct

[2:45pm] Seth_Finkelstein: This is whtat I mean by tainted process. Jwales can slam me personally. I can't slam him personally back in practice. It's what I mean by manipulation.

[2:45pm] kim_bruning: jwales, When I watched some of the SOPA debate, the SOPA proponents were using practically your arguments "it's only a little harmless filtering" and all that ;-)

[2:45pm] • kim_bruning 

ducks

[2:45pm] topaz: folks, are we recapping the current dewp proposal or not?

[2:45pm] sgardner: Sargoth: Okay -- thanks. I see that banner.

[2:45pm] Sargoth: deWP supports the blackout of enWP

[2:46pm] YairRand: having the WMF legal counsel here during this discussion would be helpful...

[2:46pm] TParis: Seth: As far as I'm seeing, you haven't been kicked out yet and it's going both directions so what are you complaining about again?

[2:46pm] Seth_Finkelstein: And bluntly James, I'm damned insulted by you.

[2:46pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, Just say what you want to say! :-)

[2:46pm] topaz: ok, can we move on to recapping the most recent WMF office discussion?

[2:46pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @kim_bruning No way! I wouild get kicked out!

[2:46pm] Hubertl: I would even support the complete blackout of WP if necessary

[2:46pm] kim_bruning: TParis, irc is not G+

[2:46pm] jsalsman: Seth_Finkelstein: let it slide. Is there a URL explaining why as you say SOPA wouldn't be as bad as people have been assuming?

[2:46pm] Fae: Surely more powerful than blackouts would be the political influence within the USA of the prospect of WMF setting up operations in a "more free" country?

[2:46pm] kim_bruning: StevenW, We're not kicking out Seth, right?

[2:46pm] Philippe: YairRand, Geoff's writeup at WP:SOPA is a fair assessment legally

[2:46pm] Philippe: Nothing major has changed

[2:47pm] Seth_Finkelstein: YEs, I was going to get Geoff's quite when I got distracted.

[2:47pm] kim_bruning: StevenW, Unless he keeps saying he can't say, rather than just saying what he has to say ;-)

[2:47pm] tommorris: Fae: yep, and that's really a Foundation response not a communiy response. so... the balls in WMF's court on that question ;-)

[2:47pm] sgardner: Okay.

[2:47pm] Pharos: Fae: we don't really want to make ourselves look like Wikileaks or Pirate Bay

[2:47pm] jwales: Seth, I've never noticed you particularly constrained in slamming me personally.

[2:47pm] Thogo: Fae, well that was the first thing I had in mind, too. Moving the servers out of the US. But I don't know how complicated that would be...

[2:47pm] Pharos: shopping around for havens make us look weird

[2:47pm] kim_bruning: jwales, Seth_Finkelstein : play nice :-)

[2:47pm] jsalsman: Does anyone want to consider Lessig's point that pay-for-play lobbying exacerbated by Citizens United which will allow the content cartels to push through SOPA as an amendment even if it's defeated this time, so working against SOPA is the Wrong Thing?

[2:47pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @jwales - that says more for your baseline than anything else.

[2:47pm] StevenW: I'll kick anyone who turns office hours into a personal shouting match, including Sue.  ;)

[2:48pm] sgardner: Okay! I am going to try to summarize what I think is happening on the enWP discussion.

[2:48pm] Tango42: Philippe: I interpreted Geoff's writeup as basically saying he isn't sure. The only risk seems to be around if we end up being defined as a search engine, which we clearly aren't.

[2:48pm] Fae: Pharos: Locating servers outside the USA does not automatically make us look like pirates.

[2:48pm] StevenW: But nobody has yet.

[2:48pm] • kim_bruning 

huggles StevenW

[2:48pm] YairRand: what would be the consequences of evacuating the US?

[2:48pm] kim_bruning: StevenW, I'm sure Sue feels like she's on notice now ;-)

[2:48pm] Prodego: StevenW: does that mean I can't use ALL CAPS?

[2:48pm] StevenW: heh

[2:48pm] Ironholds: YairRand: we'd have to spend incredible amounts of money moving to a fictional nation

[2:48pm] Philippe: Can we put the "post SOPA" conversation on hold?

[2:48pm] Philippe: And talk about what, if anything, we should do now?

[2:48pm] StevenW: Anyway, back to SOPA.

[2:48pm] YairRand: "fictional nation"?

[2:49pm] sgardner: Let me recap. First there was a discussion on Jimmy's talkpage, which established (I would say: correct me if you think I'm wrong) strong consensus for doing something. It wasn't a concrete proposal though: it was just Jimmy testing the waters to see if people were interested.

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[2:49pm] Excirial: Eh, is it me, or is the discussion somewhat unfocused and unreadable by now?

[2:49pm] WereSpielChequer: +1 to Fae. Also having a non US datacentre gives us the bonus of improving download speeds in another part of te world

[2:49pm] kim_bruning: Excirial, so hush and listen to sgardner already :-)

[2:49pm] Philippe: Sue, I think that's a safe assessment.

[2:49pm] topaz: Excirial: let's get back to sue's recap

[2:49pm] kim_bruning: WereSpielChequer, IRC:NOT G+

[2:50pm] Fae: kim_bruning: +1 to that.

[2:50pm] ErrantX: sgardner: with you so far

[2:50pm] sgardner: Then, the discussion moved over to another page, which is more 'neutral' because it's not somebody's talk page. And it seems there like there's still consensus for something to happen, but so far nothing concrete has been proposed.

[2:50pm] Sargoth: Hubertl: I signed the blackout proposal on jwales ' talk page but no senate member would give a sh** if deWP wouls have a black out and the german readers would only have growing anti.american ressentiments so i don't think a deWP blackout is very smart ;)

[2:50pm] Tango42: Can everyone please keep in mind that there are 94 people in this channel - can we try and keep off-topic comments to a minimum?

[2:50pm] • kim_bruning 

slaps a large trout around with Fae

[2:50pm] Seth_Finkelstein: Quote - "The new version now exempts U.S. sites like ours. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative

[2:50pm] ErrantX: I think the phrase would be "something is evolving slowly"

[2:50pm] Prodego: sgardner: nothing is going to come out of that discussion. What it does is give you free reign to do something as the WMF

[2:50pm] kim_bruning: Tango42, so what did you just do? ;-)

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[2:50pm] sgardner: And there are some serious open questions that would need to be resolved. Like, US-only or worldwide. Blackout or banner. English or multiple languages. All that would need to be resolved before anything could be done.

[2:50pm] Philippe: He pointed out a proposed ground rule, and a good one, kim_bruning

[2:50pm] sgardner: Is this roughly accurate, do we think?

[2:51pm] Qcoder00: sgardner: Good evening

[2:51pm] sgardner: Because that's where I think the discussion is currently at.

[2:51pm] Prodego: sgardner: to do that you'll have to consider if it is in the WMF's goals, and if it is, do whatever, and people cannot complain too much

[2:51pm] Theo10011: A lot of news outlets are reporting Jan. 23 as a blackout date. WMF is listed as one of the companies considering such a blackout sgardner jwales.

[2:51pm] Prodego: but that's about it

[2:51pm] Theo10011: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/111543-google-amazon-facebook-and-twitter-considering-nuclear-option-to-protest-sopa

[2:51pm] sgardner: Hello Qcoder00 :-)

[2:51pm] Hubertl: Sargoth: havent you read what happens with Vorratsspeicherung the last days in Bruxelles?

[2:51pm] sgardner: (K I am reading now, catching up.)

[2:51pm] Moonriddengirl: Theo10011, that's interesting. I didn't realize that the press was reporting on that.

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[2:51pm] Philippe: Theo10011: I've heard the 18th

[2:51pm] Philippe: not the 23rd.

[2:51pm] Philippe: Do you have a source?

[2:51pm] kim_bruning: Philippe, O:-) But we could have a meta discussion about that all day :-)

[2:51pm] JeanFred joined the chat room.

[2:52pm] Theo10011: Philippe: already gave 2

[2:52pm] Philippe: Sargoth, it sounds like there's no desire for a blackout on DE...

[2:52pm] Qcoder00: sgardner: I know the current chatter is on SOPA, but I wanted to raise concerns on a different matter if that is allowed.

[2:52pm] Philippe: Thanks, Theo10011

[2:52pm] Philippe: Qcoder00: can it hold so we're not mixing topics?

[2:52pm] Qcoder00: I'l contact sgardner in /query if she will allow it

[2:52pm] sgardner: Okay, I'm caught up. So let me respond to what Prodego said.

[2:53pm] Philippe: Qcoder00: She's pretty fully engrossed, but you could certainly email.  :-)

[2:53pm] Fae: Philippe: Example source for 23rd - http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/06/tech/web/sopa-web-piracy-act/index.html

[2:53pm] sgardner: Prodego: the Wikimedia Foundation has a position on SOPA, which we've blogged about, but we don't want to take action against SOPA on the projects because of our own position. We want any action on the projects to be a result of community desire. It

[2:53pm] Hubertl: Philippe: we did´nt discuss this option

[2:53pm] ErrantX: sgardner: the only other thing I would say is that...

[2:53pm] Philippe: Thanks, Fae

[2:53pm] sgardner: 's a community decision, not the Wikimedia Foundation's decision.

[2:53pm] Sargoth: philippe I'm not sure about it, I think they simply didn't take into consideration; only fact is majority supports action

[2:53pm] ErrantX: that conversation may peter out - which is possibly a decision on "what to do" in itself

[2:53pm] Philippe: Hubertl, Sargoth, thank you

[2:53pm] StevenW: Why the 23rd in particular? I thought the 18th was the day the markup was happening?

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[2:54pm] Fae: StevenW: Other sources also say the 18th...

[2:54pm] sgardner: Having said that, it does appear that the community's a bit stuck, and so we are trying to figure out how we could facilitate it towards achieving resolution.

[2:54pm] Prodego: sgardner: if you try to wait for a consensus on exactly what to do, you won't get it. As I believe you said, we cannot move at that speed.

[2:54pm] aschmidt: philinje: no, we did not discuss a blackout on WP-de, only a banner

[2:54pm] Narson: The provision of service is a foundation rather than community issue IMHO.

[2:54pm] sgardner: Prodego: Yes, exactly.

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[2:55pm] aschmidt: Philippe: no, we did not discuss a blackout on WP-de, only a banner

[2:55pm] • Philippe 

nods at aschmidt, thank you

[2:55pm] sgardner: Partly because the community isn't really set up to carry out meta level discussions -- where issues cross countries, cross languages.

[2:55pm] Pharos: why don't we just propose a relatively moderate action?

[2:55pm] YairRand: getting consensus with a deadline is really really difficult

[2:55pm] Pharos: ie US only

[2:55pm] Narson: If there is a vague feeling that 'something must be done' by the community, then I think the foundation should be confident in taking action without some specific motion.

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[2:56pm] Tango42: sgardner: If the community had a specific proposal to consider and reach a conclusion on, we might be able to manage it. At the moment, you've asked an open question and we're never going to get a consensus there.

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[2:56pm] Theo10011_ is now known as Theo10011.

[2:56pm] Sargoth: blackout of enWP / showing solidarity is supported though

[2:56pm] StevenW: Does it seem like there's no consensus to do anything that is outside the US? (I mean even on EN).

[2:56pm] WereSpielChequer: US only wouldn't seem moderate to our targets, but it would leave most of our readers unaffected

[2:56pm] kim_bruning: Tango42, can we figure a concerte plan?

[2:56pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @sgardner - I'm very cyncial about "We want any action on the projects to be a result of community desire". There's a lot of sure, we want it to be your decision, but the people in charge of handing out the goods want it this way, and people who argue aginst it are bad people.

[2:56pm] Theo10011: StevenW: SOPA goes up in senate on the 24th, 23rd is the logical day before.

[2:56pm] StevenW: Gotcha Theo

[2:56pm] Seth_Finkelstein: That's what driving my views, though again, I'm against SOPA

[2:56pm] kim_bruning: Theo10011, StevenW I suggest the 18th, to align with reddit

[2:56pm] Theo10011: sorry if I'm repeating myself, wifi in Sao Paulo is apparently not that reliable.

[2:57pm] Philippe: Tango42: So would it help if someone were to define a specific proposal?

[2:57pm] sgardner: Seth: I haven't seen anybody say that someone arguing against community action is a bad person.

[2:57pm] Bodnotbod: How about a compromise? A list of proposed actions is garnered from the community conversation (including "no action" option), WMF facilitates by setting up voting software/venue and take it from there?

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[2:57pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @sgardner *cough*

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[2:57pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, linky?

[2:57pm] • kim_bruning 

waves to James_F

[2:57pm] jwales: *cough* is not an argument

[2:57pm] sgardner: sorry, Seth, seriously: I haven't seen anything like that. If you've got links great.

[2:57pm] kim_bruning: long time no see!

[2:58pm] Tango42: Philippe: Lots of people have defined specific proposals. It would help if the WMF proposed one.

[2:58pm] Sargoth: what about the commons?

[2:58pm] ErrantX: Philippe: there is technically a firm proposal (or two). And if anything it probably has vague consensus

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[2:58pm] YairRand: perhaps the WMF could just propose something at the VP, and the community could take it from there

[2:58pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @jwales  - it's indirect.

[2:58pm] Pharos: I think us Americans would be happy with just a US protest

[2:58pm] kim_bruning: YairRand, no, WMF can't take the lead in that

[2:58pm] kim_bruning: YairRand, so this is something we need to do

[2:58pm] hoo: Well, it could be done like itwiki did their closure a few months ago

[2:58pm] Prodego: kim_bruning: I cannot see it happening any other way

[2:58pm] ErrantX: The problem is, no one is going to close it and say "lets go"

[2:59pm] kim_bruning: Pharos, Maybe SOPA can be a boon, if it means we get to take away DNS from the US, finally

[2:59pm] jeremyb: are we picketing?

[2:59pm] hoo: that was fully community driven

[2:59pm] ErrantX: (I say problem, although I'm anti it :))

[2:59pm] kim_bruning: Prodego, Ok, so then we can go on and talk about something else

[2:59pm] kim_bruning: Prodego, because it won't be happening ;-)

[2:59pm] Pharos: jeremyb, only us in NYC :P

[2:59pm] Prodego: well I'd be fine with that

[2:59pm] kim_bruning: Prodego, I'm not quite so pessimistic ;-)

[2:59pm] jeremyb: kim_bruning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle

[2:59pm] Narson: I'm sure we have a policy on WPen about being bold...

[2:59pm] eia: Narson: you must confuse that with WP:BE_BALD

[3:00pm] YairRand: it has been suggested that we just block the DC area

[3:00pm] sgardner: I would be fine to have the Wikimedia Foundation draw up a proposal for the community to discuss, refine, revise, reject, whatever. Purpose would be for us to facilitate discussion, not lead it.

[3:00pm] • Philippe 

is in trouble if baldness is an attribute

[3:00pm] apergos: sgardner: you said there was an office meeting about SOPA; can you summarize that?

[3:00pm] apergos: (apologies if you described it already, I didn't see it in the backread)

[3:00pm] Prodego: summarize SOPA?

[3:00pm] jeremyb: apergos: i think that's what's happening right now?

[3:00pm] jwales: YairRand: I think the key is that, according to our experts in Washington, what will make a difference is phone calls and letters from US citizens.

[3:00pm] sgardner: Why don't we spend some time here, trying to frame up specifics? Like, US-only versus global, banner versus blackout....

[3:01pm] tommorris: US-only, definitely.

[3:01pm] jsalsman: symptom versus root cause?

[3:01pm] Sargoth: what about blackout of wikimedia commons? has that been discussed there? this would affect all languages and other projects

[3:01pm] jwales: So blocking DC only wouldn't have the same impact.  We want the Congressman from Idaho, who doesn't care about Hollywood or the Internet, to know that his constituents are upset about this.

[3:01pm] apergos: the meeting they just had. not this meeting here, jeremyb

[3:01pm] Thogo: blackout in the US only, banner everywhere?

[3:01pm] jeremyb: apergos: where?

[3:01pm] jwales: At the same time, blacking out, say, Bulgaria, would be to little purpose.

[3:01pm] YairRand: +1 US-only

[3:01pm] apergos: she said they just had a meeting in the office about sopa (that was near the beginning of the office hours)

[3:01pm] James_F: Thogo> That's what I'd go for.

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[3:02pm] eia: jwales: could you do a state by state blackout? as a estafette?

[3:02pm] Prodego: YairRand: well we can all vote in circles here, but that's not really the point

[3:02pm] kim_bruning: take into account the fact that many more companies and people support sopa than oppose it

[3:02pm] YairRand: also, if this is an ENWP decision, other projects shouldn't be blanked

[3:02pm] Philippe: era, we don't have sub-national targeting yet :(

[3:02pm] jwales: My concern is: how quickly can we make a decision, and can we make a decision that allows the Foundation to have flexibility in calling this, i.e. we don't want to go on strike if, at the last minute, the bill is watered down to harmlessnes, or similar.

[3:02pm] kim_bruning: we may well have already lost upfront...

[3:02pm] Theo10011: there should be a way to turn off internet for the state of Idaho jwales :P

[3:02pm] sgardner: (I will recap, apergos. I want to just give people some space to talk for a minute though.)

[3:02pm] eia: (not sure if that is feasable technically)

[3:02pm] apergos: (sure)

[3:02pm] Narson: I think a ban more generally is probably better media wide (It embarasses politicians, which tends to get faster action)

[3:02pm] kim_bruning: So we do need an after plan

[3:02pm] jeremyb: that?

[3:02pm] Narson: Uh, media wise.

[3:02pm] jwales: eia: what does the word 'estafette' mean?

[3:02pm] jeremyb: gah

[3:02pm] eia: jwales: on Feb 1 you do arkansas, on Feb 2 delaware, Feb 3 New York etc

[3:02pm] • tommorris 

isn't sure how not being able to read Wikipedia in Denmark really affects US politics

[3:03pm] eia: and in every state you suggest to call /their/ people

[3:03pm] apergos: international pressure, tommorris?

[3:03pm] apergos: sometimes it has an impact

[3:03pm] Narson: Because 'There is a banner on wikipedia' is not much of a news story.

[3:03pm] kim_bruning: jwales, estafette=relay race

[3:03pm] eia: then everybody only has one day of blackout

[3:03pm] Narson: Or it goes under North American news on major EU websites and thus off the front page.

[3:03pm] Thogo: eia... the law goes into senate quite soon... No time for 50 days of state-blackouts.

[3:03pm] Moonriddengirl: eia, Philippe mentioned that we don't have the ability to target people sub-nationally.

[3:04pm] tommorris: apergos: I already tell my friends in the U.S. that they have stupid laws. it doesn't really have much of an effect.

[3:04pm] tommorris: in return, they tell me we still have a Royal Family

[3:04pm] Philippe: We're hearing "Wikipedia-only"… is that correct?

[3:04pm] Thogo: I would think all en-projects?

[3:04pm] Narson: It isn't about individual actors but about media and political pressure, Tommorris.

[3:04pm] tommorris: enwiki consensus doesn't really bind other projects

[3:04pm] Pharos: If we could do general state-specific messaging, that would be useful in the future though

[3:04pm] • Sargoth 

talks about the commons all the time :P

[3:04pm] StevenW: Thogo, Sargoth: if DE does run a banner do you think they'd want anything from WMF? Like statements from General Counsel or press-related help from Jay? If the community is going to do a banner on DE then they should feel free to ask for anything they need.

[3:04pm] ErrantX: As I said on-wiki today

[3:05pm] Prodego: Pharos: that isn't really how the internet works

[3:05pm] Thogo: well, one should ask them other english projects, including Simple English.

[3:05pm] ErrantX: we need to *very clearly* say "English Wikipedia" in any action

[3:05pm] ErrantX: because we can't claim to speak for other Wiki's

[3:05pm] YairRand: enwp consensus can not decide things for other projects

[3:05pm] jeremyb: eia: i think that's not practical. the geoip DBs aren't accurate enough. (maybe northeast vs. southeast but not state by state)

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[3:05pm] eia2: sorry, connection stutters

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[3:05pm] Pharos: ^regional would be good too

[3:05pm] jsalsman: eia: if you want to use geolocation like that, it's just as easy to give everyone a banner or blackout or dismissible pop-up with their local congressional delegation's info on it all on the same day, but geolocation isn't good enough for congressional district with any reliability, just give them a URL to type in their zip code

[3:05pm] jeremyb: 12 23:05:20 < jeremyb> eia: i think that's not practical. the geoip DBs aren't accurate enough. (maybe northeast vs. southeast but not state  by state)

[3:06pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, really doesn't bind at all;-)

[3:06pm] tommorris: I don't think the benefit of overriding (the albeit overrated) project independence really is a good tradeoff. we tell other english sister projects that enwiki consensus can overrule them on anything, and in return... people can't read Wikiquote for a day.

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[3:06pm] Thogo: StevenW: Well... knowing the community, I'd say it wouldn't be bad to have some official statement attached to the banner...

[3:06pm] sgardner: Thogo, Sargoth: Jay Walsh is connected in with the other organizations that are interested in SOPA -- EFF, Mozilla, Reddit, etc. I think he is publishing information he's getting from them on the enWP SOPA discussion page.

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[3:06pm] WereSpielChequer: We can ask other wikis if they'd like to join.

[3:06pm] Sargoth: StevenW: there's already a translation og geoff brighams blog post on the info page so i think yes, any further statement shoul be useful

[3:06pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, we can override project independence exactly once.

[3:06pm] jorm: whupz.

[3:06pm] tommorris: WereSpielChequer: I can tell you what Wikinews would say - no.

[3:06pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, after which they all go "Fork You"

[3:07pm] hoo: kim_bruning: +1

[3:07pm] eia2: ok, gotta go, sorry for so short :)

[3:07pm] StevenW: Okay, will make sure HaeB or someone points the DE community to the appropriate statements from Geoff. Thanks Thogo/Sargoth.

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[3:07pm] tommorris: but Wikinews is rather prickly about not being the servant of either enwiki or the WMF. ;-)

[3:07pm] Thogo: yes

[3:07pm] Narson: Isn't wikinews a WMF project?

[3:07pm] Pharos: it's not worth it to go to sister projects unless they're really for it

[3:07pm] Tinz: StevenW: but much more important than de-wp details is to get a consensus for en-wp

[3:07pm] Thogo: tommorris: do they have a SOPA discussion going on on-wiki?

[3:08pm] StevenW: Tinz; right :)

[3:08pm] Theo10011: Narson: shh, don't tell any admin from en.wn that. ;)

[3:08pm] Thogo: (if not, start one?)

[3:08pm] Pharos: sister projects don't really have the public impact anyway

[3:08pm] jwales: Well folks I need to head to bed soon.  My main thing is this: given that we seem to have a strong majority to do something useful here, it would be a shame if we let our wonderfully reflective and thoughtful slow culture, which works great for making our internal decisions, get in the way of making a fast decision to get something done.

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[3:08pm] Sargoth: ithanks sgardner i'll inform the community about the talk page infos

[3:08pm] jorm: jwales++

[3:08pm] jwales: I'd hate to see us quibbling over this version or that version for months, while the world moves on without us. :)

[3:08pm] Narson: And it isn't overriding project autonomy IMO, if the WMF takes action based on perceived consensus for action.

[3:08pm] sgardner: Let me ask another question. Blackout versus banner?

[3:08pm] tommorris: Thogo: no, and feel free. they'll probably tell you to go fuck themselves

[3:08pm] Thogo: lol

[3:08pm] sgardner: Bye Jimmy :-)

[3:08pm] Narson: Banner on wikipedia? Must be a day ending in y.

[3:09pm] James_F: Bye Jimmy.

[3:09pm] Philippe: lol

[3:09pm] Bodnotbod: Blackout.

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[3:09pm] jeremyb: jwales: good night

[3:09pm] jorm: Blackout.

[3:09pm] Theo10011: sgardner: I think banner doesn't require that much deliberation, we can and should do that already for US-only anons.

[3:09pm] Hubertl: sgardner: blackout on en:WP, banner in other countries

[3:09pm] apergos: black page with message -> redir to article after x time (or not redirect, depending)

[3:09pm] hoo: Could easily be done via CentralNotice

[3:09pm] Theo10011: Any admin can set that up in less than an hour.

[3:09pm] hoo: would cost me (and others) 15 mins.

[3:09pm] petan: I always come late, heh

[3:09pm] James_F: Theo10011> Banner about SOPA for all US-based anons?

[3:09pm] tommorris: would the blackout be overrideable? as in, it'd pop up, then you could close it and still get a banner

[3:09pm] jorm: apergos++

[3:09pm] Theo10011: ya James_F

[3:09pm] jwales: I vote soft blackout - i.e. people need to click through to get to content, but content still available, and banner dismissable.  I'm also for the banner being managed by Zack and the fundraising team to the maximum degree possible with the goal being effectiveness in terms of driving action by readers.  I'm not sure how much my dream campaign is really possible. :)

[3:09pm] Theo10011: Also, hi

[3:10pm] jsalsman: +1 apergos timed-dismissal overlay or redirect

[3:10pm] hoo: tommorris: Depends on how it's done

[3:10pm] StevenW: clickthrough blackout like sopablackout.org? I like too.

[3:10pm] Pharos: soft blackout sounds good

[3:10pm] hoo: I'd prefere to do it like itwiki did it

[3:10pm] jorm: yeah.  clickthrough.

[3:10pm] Philippe: I rather like the sopablackout.org-like option

[3:10pm] Theo10011: I'm saying, until we get a complete blackout going...

[3:10pm] Theo10011: how about we start with a banner.

[3:10pm] ErrantX: we could get a banner up quite easily

[3:10pm] ErrantX: make a firm proposal and give it 48 hours

[3:10pm] tommorris: given that 50% of doctors use Wikipedia as part of their daily practice, I'd hate to think of the health issues if it were down for a whole day

[3:10pm] petan: is it US only plan?

[3:10pm] SpeakFree: I prefer the Italian version too makes people realize what Wikipedia means to them so they get rallied into action.

[3:11pm] Thogo: hm, that soft blackout wouldn't have so much effect, I guess. People would just be annoyed and then forget about it after they got to the contents.

[3:11pm] ErrantX: it just needs someone firm to get on top of it

[3:11pm] Philippe: Stay out of the doctors office that day, tommorris

[3:11pm] StevenW: petan: US-only so far for blackout, banner elsewhere if it's what the local community wants.

[3:11pm] sgardner: petan: Yes, so far it sounds like people are leaning towards US-only, or maybe US-only blackout plus global banners.

[3:11pm] hoo: ErrantX: You mean from a technical point?

[3:11pm] Hubertl: only blackout will have an effect.

[3:11pm] sgardner: StevenW is faster than me :-)

[3:11pm] Narson: I don't think 50% of doctors use wikipedia...

[3:11pm] Theo10011: Pb us hypochondriacs need it too. :P

[3:11pm] StevenW: heh

[3:11pm] Tango42: tommorris: I hate to think of the health issues of 50% of doctors using Wikipedia...

[3:11pm] Narson: Or if they do, we are putting air quotes around doctors.

[3:11pm] jsalsman: http://sopablackout.org/ would work, assuming enwiki doesn't slashdot it

[3:11pm] SpeakFree: I have offline WP on my phone doctors could install that as well.

[3:11pm] tommorris: Narson: signpost reported it a long time ago

[3:11pm] Hubertl: Narson: 90% of all doctors use WP

[3:12pm] James_F: sgardner> I definitely think we should be global in some form, rather than US-only.

[3:12pm] TParis: tommorris: WebMD might find their traffic increase

[3:12pm] Thogo: I think if a blackout is done, it should really be a no-access-to-the-goodies blackout.

[3:12pm] James_F: It's certainly more of a statement if it's an actual blackout, itwiki-style.

[3:12pm] Theo10011: James_F: It is still a US legislation, going up in US senate, we should focus on US viewers, no?

[3:12pm] tommorris: here's an issue: if there's a 'hard' blackout in the US and a banner elsewhere, would it affect admins?

[3:12pm] sgardner: Why don't we spend a minute talking specifically about total blackout versus "soft" blackout (with clickthrough).

[3:13pm] hoo: we can't use http://sopablackout.org/ directly as we mustn't load data from 3rd party systems

[3:13pm] Hubertl: sgardner: +1

[3:13pm] StevenW: Yeah we'd have to ask ops about it hoo.

[3:13pm] James_F: Theo10011> But we're all screwed if it goes ahead. And "disabled globally" is a much more powerful message - and much closer to what we're trying to highlight, the reality of it.

[3:13pm] Narson: Soft blackout isn't really a blackout. It is a mild annoyance, I must say.

[3:13pm] Seth_Finkelstein: I have severe doubts on multiple grounds - backlash, ends-vs-means, what effect is desired?

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[3:13pm] petan: right since I am living in europe I don't know how much should I talk to it, but I support clickthrough version, no need to disable content totaly

[3:13pm] Philippe: I think we've got a sufficient number of extra-US admins, Theo10011

[3:13pm] WereSpielChequer: 18-22 softblackout with countdown 23rd hard blackout

[3:13pm] Philippe: But i'm not sure

[3:13pm] Sargoth: pro total blackout / sgardner the statements will be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:SOPA_initiative or somewhere else?

[3:13pm] James_F: Narson> Agreed.

[3:13pm] Narson: And more likely to make users want to punch wikimedia rather than US Senators

[3:13pm] jsalsman: hoo: well their scripts are simple enough and I'm sure they'd prefer enwiki copy them than pay for that kind of bandwidth

[3:13pm] Theo10011: James_F: Agreed, but as jimmy said, global blackout is a bigger deal that might require wider consensus.

[3:14pm] Thogo: WereSpielChequer: that sounds great.

[3:14pm] StevenW: Sargoth: yes,

[3:14pm] James_F: Theo10011> I think we're there right now, frankly.

[3:14pm] Theo10011: Philippe: huh?

[3:14pm] ErrantX: Hoo: yes

[3:14pm] Sargoth: thx StevenW

[3:14pm] James_F: Theo10011> And, of course, I'm more affected by SOPA than US-based residents...

[3:14pm] Philippe: Sorry, Theo10011

[3:14pm] apergos: I don;t agree to a clickthrough where you can cllick immediately

[3:14pm] Philippe: I meant that for tommorris

[3:14pm] ErrantX: Hoo: also from a "I am closing this as action to be taken - lets do it" perspective

[3:14pm] Seth_Finkelstein: Someone comes to Wikipedia, sees the blackout - what is the *effect*? What are they supposed to *do*/

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[3:14pm] apergos: click through after 30 seconds or something, ok

[3:14pm] Theo10011: James_F: I see. But as I read it, jimmy and WMF want community to take the lead on this.

[3:14pm] YairRand: is our objective to get people really annoyed at sopa, or just to spread a message?

[3:14pm] Seth_Finkelstein: And supposed they think differently?

[3:14pm] jsalsman: save the total blackout for campaign finance reform when SOPA comes back as a rider on an appropriations bill. Don't say I didn't warn you

[3:14pm] SpeakFree: leave a message like the Italians did

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[3:15pm] James_F: Theo10011> I'm community. So are you.

[3:15pm] Theo10011: it's not easy to get a consensus on a community this large quickly, that's all.

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[3:15pm] apergos: so they really need to read the message.

[3:15pm] Theo10011: Agreed.

[3:15pm] hoo: yes

[3:15pm] Theo10011: ok I will set it up, and blame you? :P

[3:15pm] Seth_Finkelstein: If the idea is to channel them to an anti-SOPA site, that's heavy-duty politics

[3:15pm] ErrantX: lets cut to the obvious here

[3:15pm] Hubertl: we can give them two messages: no WP and a very nice information why

[3:15pm] James_F: Theo10011> Feel free to blame me. Remember that IRC is not grounds for consensus, though. :-)

[3:15pm] ErrantX: any protest can claim the aim of raising awareness

[3:15pm] Thogo: no channeling. They get the message from the WMF server, Seth.

[3:15pm] Ironholds: I misread that as "cut to the oblivion". I may have been playing too much Elder Scrolls

[3:15pm] Theo10011: lol

[3:16pm] Theo10011: ;)

[3:16pm] ErrantX: but what worked for it.wiki is media coverage

[3:16pm] ErrantX: pure and simple

[3:16pm] apergos: :-D

[3:16pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: they, err, read something about SOPA. and if they oppose it, they might go contact their congressman

[3:16pm] Narson: I'm impressed you can reach the controls, Ironholds.

[3:16pm] apergos: ( at ironhoolds)

[3:16pm] • StevenW 

looks at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Project-wide_protests for arguments about these kinds of things.

[3:16pm] jsalsman: send them somewhere with a script and the phone numbers of their congresscritters

[3:16pm] Pharos: I consider IRC grounds for consensus :)

[3:16pm] SpeakFree: no have our own message explaining why we blocked the site. No links to external sites so we don't seem biased to one or the other.

[3:16pm] ErrantX: blacking out WP will make a media mess, and that is what politico's listen to

[3:16pm] StevenW: Maybe a good place for notes.

[3:16pm] Theo10011: Ironholds: I used to play elder scrolls, than I took an arrow to the knee.

[3:16pm] James_F: ErrantX> enwiki dead worldwide in protest at SOPA would be major.

[3:16pm] James_F: ErrantX> /Really/ major.

[3:16pm] Guest55341 is now known as jem-.

[3:16pm] Seth_Finkelstein: Think of this way - suppose the idea was run anti-SOPA banners like fundraising banners. Would that be effective? Appropiate?

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[3:16pm] ErrantX: Ironholds: you're way behind, got skyrim going on the other PC :)

[3:17pm] tommorris: is there a nice US equivalent to WriteToThem/FaxYourMP etc. - a non-partisan "click through to easily contact your elected representative" site?

[3:17pm] StevenW: Nice ErrantX :)

[3:17pm] sgardner: Let me ask a question. Whatever messaging we create, we would either end up pointing people to an external site, or not pointing people anywhere. Right?

[3:17pm] tommorris: where you can type in your zip code and then fill in a form and it sends it.

[3:17pm] apergos: I wonder if we would really get more media from a total blackout than a timed clickthrough

[3:17pm] Thogo: banners are just to inform people about something, not to have any real impact. (if they are localized to the wiki languages).

[3:17pm] Narson: We should have a link on the blackout screen so people can find their congressman

[3:17pm] Pharos: tommorris: yes, i';m sure there is

[3:17pm] James_F: sgardner> External site/call-to-action.

[3:17pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tomorris - Now, what if they think SOPA is a good idea, and Wikimedia is wrongly politicizing the site?

[3:17pm] Theo10011: ErrantX: Don't take an arrow to the knee in skyrim.

[3:17pm] Hubertl: sgardner: yes

[3:17pm] Moonriddengirl: If a hard blackout, is there any kind of consensus on for how long?

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[3:17pm] James_F: Moonriddengirl> The day?

[3:17pm] hoo: sgardner: I don't think that it's a good idea to point to an external site, we should better use an own message

[3:17pm] sgardner: James_F, do you mean 'call to action' as an alternative to pointing people to an external site?

[3:17pm] sgardner: Like, we offer a call-to-action?

[3:18pm] hoo: that site could easily go down witht eh many requests

[3:18pm] James_F: Moonriddengirl> So 00:01 on EST to 23:59 on PST.

[3:18pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: well, then they can (a) do nothing, (b) send us an angry email to OTRS or (c) write to their congressman telling them that SOPA/PIPA is wonderful and should vote for it

[3:18pm] StevenW: Good point hoo

[3:18pm] Philippe: Heh… Wikipedia as slashdot, hoo

[3:18pm] apergos: I'd be a fan of hosting our own message

[3:18pm] sgardner: Like, "phone your congressperson today: here is the phone number"?

[3:18pm] jorm: or reddit.

[3:18pm] jorm: we should host our own message.

[3:18pm] Moonriddengirl: thanks, James_F. :)

[3:18pm] jorm: that's, like, the *honorable* thing to do here.

[3:18pm] Hubertl: jorm: +1

[3:18pm] ErrantX: hoo: is anything it should be the EFF

[3:18pm] James_F: sgardner> Well, I'm not au fait with US lobbying tools, but I was imagining there are "find out who your Congressman is and write them a personal letter now".

[3:19pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tommorris - serious, not rhetorical question - do you think there's no downside of "politicizing Wikipedia"? Really, I mean that as a bona-fide question.

[3:19pm] ErrantX: *if

[3:19pm] jorm: we can't let someone else be our collatoral damage.

[3:19pm] Bodnotbod: Moonriddengirl , I'd always assumed the blackout would be for one day. But I confess I don't know why I came to that conclusion..

[3:19pm] jwales: sgardner - do you have an update on how close we are to being able to d that, to say to people with some reasonable degree of accuracy: "phone today, here's the number?"

[3:19pm] Tango42: I agree we should host our own stuff - let's not cause a blackout of the site we link to with our blackout!

[3:19pm] James_F: sgardner> Sorry, broken English; I imagine there are external sites that provide that kind of tool.

[3:19pm] jwales: I know we are in touch with Common Cause but I have not heard the status (my inbox is swamped!)

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[3:19pm] jsalsman: host as much as it locally as possible, but geolocation isn't accurate enough to identify congressional districts, so give them a link to a high-volume-capable congressional district finder....

[3:19pm] ErrantX: Tango42: EFF has said they can handle out traffic

[3:19pm] James_F: Tango42> Sure, but in the UK we would just point them at MySociety and make sure they're scaled up at the back end.

[3:19pm] sgardner: jwales: we currently have no ability to do that. There are services who will do it for you (white labeled), or we could point to somebody like EFF.

[3:20pm] hoo: jsalsman: We could do that in JS as well or on TS

[3:20pm] hoo: TS = toolserver from WMDE

[3:20pm] sgardner: James_F: Yes, exactly. There are external services.

[3:20pm] apergos: dunno if ts would hold the loa

[3:20pm] apergos: d

[3:20pm] ErrantX: sgardner: whitelabel == cost?

[3:20pm] Bodnotbod: I agree we should host our own message. I would like it to be drafted by WMF legal counsel (forgotten his name [blush])

[3:20pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: I think Wikipedia is political already. The idea that providing a free content, anyone-can-edit encyclopedia is somehow neutral is fantasy. there is a whole stack of implicit assumptions (we prefer free content, we prefer openness, we like the Internet damnit). that said, I'd like to see actions like this only when absolutely necessary.

[3:20pm] James_F: Bodnotbod> Geoff.

[3:20pm] sgardner: ErrantX: yeah, they charge for it. I don't know how much.

[3:20pm] Moonriddengirl: Bodnotbod, as James_F says, but we have a team now. :)

[3:20pm] Narson: Don't we employ code monkeys in a basement somewhere who can add functionality if we need it?

[3:21pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tommorris - Yes, but that's a different sense of the word.

[3:21pm] StevenW: whitelabel means you can take it make it look like your own instead of someone else's

[3:21pm] jsalsman: "The telephone number for the U. S. Capitol Switchboard is 202-224-3121" -- http://thomas.loc.gov/home/contactingcongress.html

[3:21pm] Philippe: Narson: They need time to build.  :)

[3:21pm] James_F: Bodnotbod> ... and his team rock, sorry, yes @Moonriddengirl *blush*

[3:21pm] Philippe: And it means taking them off another project.

[3:21pm] apergos: no, they are busy holding the site together with toothpicks and chewin gum

[3:21pm] Narson: Phillipe: The mistake was allowing them to sleep.

[3:21pm] Philippe: Also, Narson, we don't keep them in the basement anymore.  :D

[3:21pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tommorris - I'm talking backlash/blowback/cost-shifting concerns

[3:21pm] ErrantX: sgardner: in that case, link out :) save the money if the EFF can handle it

[3:21pm] Tango42: Using an external site to actually help people write to their congressman should be fine - that will be a reasonably small number of people. We shouldn't link elsewhere for a "read more about SOPA" type page, though - that needs to be on our servers.

[3:21pm] James_F: jsalsman> Don't want to kill the switchboard, we want to direct people into each office individually...

[3:21pm] Philippe: We were told they had to be let out for food and fresh air :(

[3:21pm] jsalsman: James_F: good point

[3:21pm] Thogo: email would work better for that James_F ...

[3:21pm] Pharos: could we have a message on SOPA tied to Wikipedia Day?

[3:21pm] James_F: jsalsman> I imagine that the switchboard will break a couple of magnitudes earlier than the direct numbers.

[3:22pm] YairRand: "If SOPA passes, we're toast! That's why we're not letting you use Wikipedia today. Tell your elected representatives that they're being really annoying, and that they should please stop."

[3:22pm] James_F: Pharos> You mean, in two days' time?

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[3:22pm] • apergos 

growls at Philippe

[3:22pm] Narson: The usual 'This is what the internet would look like if SOPA passed' hyperbole.

[3:22pm] • Philippe 

grins

[3:22pm] ErrantX: Tango42: agreed; this goes back to what I mentioned earlier about writing a "braindead" explanation of what the Bill is

[3:22pm] jsalsman: so link to http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm and http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml

[3:22pm] Pharos: well, yes possibly James_F

[3:22pm] ErrantX: (which isn't simple)

[3:22pm] Pharos: it wouldn't be hard to put up a banner

[3:22pm] Seth_Finkelstein: And that 'This is what the internet would look like if SOPA passed' is what I keep saying is false, so it bothers me greatly

[3:22pm] aude: http://reverserobocall.com/t/issue/sopa is handy

[3:22pm] hoo: .gov sites usualy can take a lot of heat, btw

[3:22pm] James_F: Pharos> Weekend isn't the best time for a call-to-action - (a) we want the Congress people to be in work if we're directing thousands of calls to their offices and (b) the lowest usage is I believe on Sundays.

[3:23pm] Seth_Finkelstein: Quote "The new version now exempts U.S. sites like ours." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative

[3:23pm] sgardner: Here's one way to think about it. If we connect with an external service that connects people to their congressperson, that is us (Wikipedia) saying call your congressperson. If we connect people to an external site such as the EFF, then we are taking a slightly more backseat, less activist role. In effect saying, "go educate yourself."

[3:23pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: I don't see that as a major concern. We've had thousands of emails with people supporting such an action. the people who use wikipedia (non-editors) tend to either be pretty supportive of this kind of thing, or they don't care and will have to go somewhere else to read about Justin Bieber

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[3:23pm] ErrantX: James_F: killing the siwtchboard is not necessairly all bad - good publicity...

[3:23pm] James_F: ErrantX> We aren't going to struggle for publicity.

[3:23pm] Ironholds: ErrantX: great publicity, but the congresscritters themselves are most likely to react by getting annoyed

[3:23pm] Pharos: ok James_F: what if we do it a few days later and still brand it as a WP Day message?

[3:23pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tommorris - are you sure isn't not just an echo chamber? Again, I mean that as a serious question.

[3:23pm] Ironholds: we don't want to say "we'll fuck with you if you vote yes"

[3:23pm] apergos: when so many calls come in that they can't handle it, they knowthey need to pay a bit of attention to public opinion

[3:24pm] Ironholds: we want to say "your voters will fuck with you if you vote yes"

[3:24pm] sgardner: And, I wonder if sending people somewhere like EFF would have broader educational effects -- such as, people could potentially learn about lots of issues related to the free and open internet, not just SOPA.

[3:24pm] James_F: Indeed, I slightly fear that the US will find a way to deem this lobbying that's prohibited.

[3:24pm] Pharos: we're having the NYC WP DAY on the 28th, for example

[3:24pm] sgardner: (I am going to start reading again, catching up.)

[3:24pm] Tango42: sgardner: Blacking out Wikipedia is already very activist, so I don't think it matters.

[3:24pm] jorm: i loves me some eff and all, but really, we should be doing this for us.

[3:24pm] TParis: tommorris: We could also go with the idea I proposed on Jimbo's talk page....soft blanking....give them the option to continue on

[3:24pm] ErrantX: Ironholds: as a cynic; I see that working best... ;)

[3:24pm] Narson: If the phone breaks in a political office, they will just be very happy.

[3:24pm] James_F: Pharos> Sure. "It's 11 years since we founded Wikipedia. SOPA would mean we'd have to shut down." or somesuch.

[3:24pm] jorm: this thing - this value - this is part of Wikimedian "dragon slaying" culture.

[3:24pm] jorm: it's not a backseat position.  it's a front-seat position.

[3:24pm] Seth_Finkelstein: AGain, SOPA would

[3:24pm] Moonriddengirl: TParis, I have to admit that I prefer that idea.

[3:24pm] Seth_Finkelstein: +mean we'd have to shut down." is false

[3:24pm] jsalsman: as a practical matter, can EFF handle the likely bandwidth?

[3:25pm] Seth_Finkelstein: Quote "The new version now exempts U.S. sites like ours." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative

[3:25pm] Tango42: James_F: SOPA wouldn't mean as much as that, we shouldn't exaggerate. It just weakens out positions.

[3:25pm] apergos: if we want to list eff as a reousrce, great. if we want to quote from them, great

[3:25pm] jorm: again, i think sending people elsewhere is asking someone else to carry our books home from school.

[3:25pm] James_F: Tango42> Illustrative.

[3:25pm] apergos: I don't think we should foward people there

[3:25pm] James_F: jorm> Yeah.

[3:25pm] James_F: jsalsman> Apparently, jwales said so.

[3:25pm] Pharos: James_F something like that, not neceasarily as harsh

[3:25pm] jsalsman: asking someone else to carry books home? Isn't that like flirting?

[3:26pm] apergos: :-/

[3:26pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tomorris - I spend many years in net.activism. One thing I've learned is to be careful about making estimates in terms of biased sources.

[3:26pm] Narson: Given that there are links to things like stormfront on wiki, I really don't see the issue in linking to the EFF

[3:26pm] jwales: sgardner I see the point about backseat versus frontseat.  For me, and others may disagree, I think it is a question about effectiveness.  Sending people to EFF (for example) to learn, and then call or not call, will likely (?) have a much lower rate of effectiveness than handing people the number and asking them to call now.

[3:26pm] Seth_Finkelstein: If you're in your own little bubble, it's easy to think everyone agrees with you.

[3:26pm] James_F: Pharos> There comes a point when you've changed so far from what you were that it's a stolen brand, not a truthful claim of evolution.

[3:26pm] ErrantX: Tango42: agreed; we should at least be honest in any message and say "We are concerned that... this will happen.. if SOPA passes"

[3:26pm] James_F: jwales> Indeed. It's the call-to-action funnel all over again.

[3:26pm] Bodnotbod: Seth_Finkelstein what is the nature of the exemption that means WP is not impacted by the legislation?

[3:27pm] Narson: But I do think that we shouldn't con ourselves into thinking that linking to an activist group is somehow less active than directly linking to contact info

[3:27pm] ErrantX: I mean realistically not much would happen to WP if SOPA passes

[3:27pm] James_F: ErrantX> You assume we'd ignore it?

[3:27pm] Tango42: James_F: Do we know what bandwidth the EFF was thinking of? The "read more" bandwidth will be very high, the "click here to contact your congressman" bandwidth will be much lower. I'm sure they can handle the latter, but can they handle the former?

[3:27pm] ErrantX: there is much worse legislation we already ignore or gloss over

[3:27pm] apergos: I think in the beginning not much might happen

[3:27pm] ErrantX: (well, not worse exactly)

[3:27pm] jsalsman: http://www.house.gov/representatives/ is a better link for the House of Reps., by the way

[3:27pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @Bodnotbod  - Can't give ref in the middle of this discussion. You'd have to read the details (this is what I mean by bad information being given out)

[3:27pm] ErrantX: but it sets a precedent that could be abused

[3:27pm] ErrantX: long term

[3:27pm] apergos: but over time we would get hit, just like everywhere else

[3:28pm] ErrantX: as I see it that is the concern we should hold

[3:28pm] jwales: nightnight

[3:28pm] jwales left the chat room. ("Leaving")

[3:28pm] apergos: night

[3:28pm] ErrantX: nn

[3:28pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @Bodnotbod - And it takes time to refute it, while possible taking slams from higher-ups.

[3:28pm] sgardner: jwales: maybe I am just being lazy :-) Honestly, I am not sure if we could get set up with an external service in time (the white-label folks). Pointing to the EFF might be a practical necessity, just in terms of timing. I don't know right now.

[3:28pm] apergos: bah humbug

[3:28pm] James_F: Tango42> I don't know - not part of that discission.

[3:28pm] sgardner: Whoops he left :-)

[3:28pm] apergos: yup

[3:28pm] apergos: hasty leavers!

[3:28pm] ErrantX: Tango42: the EFF handles a lot of traffic very well

[3:28pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: if there were a big outcry about this, we'd be getting a few emails to OTRS saying "hey, I'm against this". we're not. we're getting a steady stream of people saying they support it, and they've been holding off their annual donation until it happens. ;-)

[3:28pm] jorm: sec.  lemme see if we can get volunteers.

[3:28pm] Tango42: ErrantX: There's "a lot" and there's "Wikipedia"

[3:28pm] hoo: sgardner: so is there a desicion on the date for that yet?

[3:29pm] sgardner: hoo, on the date for a protest?

[3:29pm] Bodnotbod: Seth_Finkelstein Jimmy has gone, so don't worry about "slams".

[3:29pm] ErrantX: tommorris: I think that response is somewhat biased. The people aware of this issue are largely those who are naturally opposed to it and responding

[3:29pm] hoo: sgardner: yes

[3:29pm] ErrantX: the majority have no clue

[3:29pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tommorris, well, OK, if you have a reasonable estimation procedure. I also admit I'm bad at politics

[3:29pm] ErrantX: we may see opposition at that time

[3:29pm] ErrantX: (they become aware)

[3:29pm] sgardner: If there is a protest, it looks like it will be the 18th. Because that's the date most sites seem to have picked for responding.

[3:29pm] Narson: We will see lots of angry 14 year olds who can't do their essays.

[3:29pm] TParis: poor OTRS

[3:30pm] sgardner: Let me ask a question.

[3:30pm] James_F: Narson> They have Facebook Pages.

[3:30pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @Bodnotbod - but how did he know my previous Google remark (which he got wrong?) Read logs? Someone told him? 1/2 :-)

[3:30pm] tommorris: perhaps this will be the shot in the arm that Citizendium needs to finally take off.

[3:30pm] hoo: 5 days from now, possible to build smth.

[3:30pm] Moonriddengirl: Narson. :) Most of the people I know rely on Wikipedia heavily.

[3:30pm] hoo: but hard

[3:30pm] Narson: James_F: I wasn't saying it was a bad thing to annoy all those teenagers.

[3:30pm] Philippe: Maybe they'll read up on civics

[3:30pm] ErrantX: get them out from their computers :)

[3:30pm] James_F: Narson> And I wasn't saying it's a good thing they use Facebook. :-)

[3:30pm] Pharos: tommorris ha ha

[3:30pm] James_F: Philippe> Ha.

[3:30pm] sgardner: If it were equally feasible to point people towards an external site (such as but not necessarily EFF), versus pointing people towards a white-labeled site giving basically the same information, which do people prefer? Can we just do a straw poll, saying 'external' or 'white-label'?

[3:31pm] Bodnotbod: ErrantX : you seem to be saying "people who protest about an issue are aware of an issue". I think that rather goes without saying.

[3:31pm] sgardner: This assumes enWP only, inside the United States only.

[3:31pm] James_F: sgardner> White-label.

[3:31pm] apergos: what is a  white-labeled site?

[3:31pm] tommorris: sgardner: I'm thinking EFF personally.

[3:31pm] Philippe: apergos:  unbranded but externally supplied

[3:31pm] kim_bruning: I'd do enwp worldwide, since we don't have good enough geo-ip

[3:31pm] kim_bruning: this might also be useful to shake up .eu

[3:31pm] James_F: apergos> So "us-lobby.wikimedia.org" which is WM/WP branded.

[3:31pm] tommorris: sgardner: alternatively, talk to bep from Reddit and co-ordinate

[3:31pm] sgardner: apergos: White label is provided by an external supplier, but looks like it's us.

[3:31pm] hoo: kim_bruning: it works quite good for countries

[3:31pm] Narson: Moonriddengirl: I know a few people who use wiki heavily - I have even championed wikipedia in discussions with other academics. Oddly I think that doing this will actually improve the standing of wikipedia with the academics who hate us!

[3:31pm] James_F: Or whatever.

[3:31pm] apergos: I want any site that supplies the info to be branded as wp

[3:31pm] kim_bruning: we need some people working on DNS alternatives, or they'll be caught with their pants down when things happen

[3:31pm] jsalsman: white-label, because I'm not sure EFF has enough bandwidth

[3:32pm] kim_bruning: Narson, how come?

[3:32pm] ErrantX: Bodnotbod: no, I am saying that those people actually aware of the SOPA issue are those naturally against it. The masses are not aware as yet

[3:32pm] James_F: apergos> Lest people go with the "OMG Wikipedia's been hacked!" meme?

[3:32pm] apergos: don't get me wrong, I'm a huge eff fan. I just think we ought to be seen as on the front lines right with them

[3:32pm] ErrantX: external

[3:32pm] Bodnotbod: I'm concerned about us directing traffic to any other site, If it falls over we're leaving our visitors utterly stranded with little benefit to us.

[3:32pm] Pharos: walrus.wikimedia.org volunteers to lead this effort :P

[3:32pm] apergos: which means doing it.

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[3:32pm] Hubertl: sgardner: we should present our own position. Like the italians did

[3:32pm] James_F: sgardner> Your straw-poll isn't working, I fear. :-)

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[3:32pm] jsalsman: why would it have to be anything more than the usual enwiki javascript? Aren't there already geolocation hooks?

[3:32pm] Philippe: white-label

[3:33pm] jorm: consensus here in the tech department is that we'd annihilate the eff's servers.

[3:33pm] StevenW: no calling. no one uses phones anymore

[3:33pm] ErrantX: sgardner: alternativel talk to the EFF about white-labeling what they have

[3:33pm] James_F: StevenW> Google Voice?

[3:33pm] tommorris: apergos: see, the way I see it is that it's basically solidarity. Wikipedia isn't leading this, it's just like workers going on strike in support of a bigger action

[3:33pm] ErrantX: seems pointless to pay for this, waste of money

[3:33pm] Theo10011: I would prefer our own page, with a list of US senators, and their office contact details.

[3:33pm] Theo10011: linked from that page.

[3:33pm] log: Yes, hello.

[3:33pm] jsalsman: StevenW: phone calls are more effective than letters, faxes, or emails to Congress

[3:33pm] hoo: Theo10011: +1

[3:33pm] Narson: tommorris: Something that is illegal in many countries, mind ;)

[3:33pm] apergos: tommorris: we're one of a number of "leaders" I guess

[3:33pm] James_F: Theo10011> Can't be a wall-of-text. Needs to be interactive form/etc.

[3:33pm] jorm: ryan lane says that our geoip service is probably not fine grained enough.

[3:33pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @ommorris - yes, but supporting WHO, that's the point.

[3:33pm] aude: can we mirror some eff page?

[3:34pm] Sargoth: Theo10011: + 2

[3:34pm] sgardner: Okay. I am hearing more white-label than external.

[3:34pm] jorm: and brion suggests just reusing the italian code.

[3:34pm] apergos: that would be easy enough jorm

[3:34pm] sgardner: It doesn't really matter right now -- this is just a straw poll.

[3:34pm] sgardner: Okay!

[3:34pm] Hubertl: sgardner: seems so, no external

[3:34pm] James_F: The Italian code worked as a text wall, but didn't have an action link AFAICR.

[3:34pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tomorris - this gets into the overall politics (*involving* Google)

[3:34pm] YairRand: (not actually possible suggestion, but a fun idea: we blackout the site for areas who's congresspeople support sopa, and then unblackout it as soon as they change position in the middle of the day.)

[3:34pm] apergos: hahaha

[3:34pm] Theo10011: We can prob. find the contact details of all the senator offices and list them on a page....in an hour or two at most.

[3:35pm] hoo: yes and make a Javascript based search or so

[3:35pm] apergos: "If your congresscritter isn't on this list, pick one of them at random. They need it!"

[3:35pm] hoo: shouldn't be too hard in 5 days

[3:35pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: we oppose X. Google oppose X. therefore, we support Google. --> if that's your argument... sigh.

[3:35pm] Philippe: So what about the blackout versus blackout-with-clickthrough option?

[3:35pm] kim_bruning: apergos, check the recent reddit campaign, they point out that people need to call THEIR representative

[3:35pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tomorris - Silly straw man.

[3:35pm] apergos: I know they do

[3:35pm] Theo10011: Philippe with a clickthrough

[3:35pm] ErrantX: if you're going to blackout do it properly

[3:35pm] Narson: On the plus side, this makes more work for the WMF while at the same time being right. Perfect!

[3:35pm] ErrantX: or it's useless

[3:35pm] kim_bruning: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/oe3mf/these_61_senators_are_refusing_to_meet_with_their/

[3:35pm] Moonriddengirl: Blackout-with-clickthrough option, Philippe. :) Although it would be good to put some effort into the clickthrough.

[3:36pm] Excirial: I would save the "Full blackout" for when it really passes.

[3:36pm] apergos: but if someone's rep is already voting against... :-)

[3:36pm] kim_bruning: here's reddit'sd activity

[3:36pm] kim_bruning: note how reddit has been invited to talk before the committee

[3:36pm] James_F: apergos> Need to be careful to be "professional" and "responsible" in this.

[3:36pm] kim_bruning: and wmf hasn't yet, afaict ^^;;

[3:36pm] Narson: There is no point protesting it once it is already in force.

[3:36pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tomorris - I started talking about "manufacture of consent" above, famous book (relatively)

[3:36pm] Narson: Tech laws are a bitch to repeal - niche market.

[3:36pm] Excirial: "With clicktrough" should have the same media impact, while keeping collateral at a minimum.

[3:36pm] ErrantX: As I said before; the point of this is simply to get the media to pressure the politicians - so click through is nowhere near as effective "ouch"

[3:36pm] Excirial: Narson - there are still stages after congress

[3:36pm] jsalsman: Moonriddengirl: effort? the [X] dismissal box moves out from under the mouse if you're not quick enough? j/k

[3:36pm] hoo: Excirial: don't think so

[3:36pm] hoo: at least not abroad

[3:37pm] Sargoth: clicktrough is no blackout at all

[3:37pm] Moonriddengirl: LOL, jsalsman. I was thinking actually of more than one screen. :)

[3:37pm] Excirial: President needs to sign it, and can still veto it (According to the Sopa page)

[3:37pm] James_F: Excirial> He won't.

[3:37pm] Philippe: Excirial: he's unlikely to veto, as I understand it.

[3:37pm] apergos: James_F: yeah yeah I know but I was liking the thought :-)

[3:37pm] James_F: Excirial> Most of his major funding comes from SOPA-supporters.

[3:37pm] James_F: Excirial> And it's an election year.

[3:37pm] Bodnotbod: Philippe blackout with no click-through (provided that SOPA is a genuine, inarguable threat to WP, which I am not in a position to determine myself).

[3:37pm] Excirial: Ah yes, presidental election time.

[3:37pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: I'm perfectly well aware of uncomfortable bed fellows. I'm no fan of the telcos like BT and TalkTalk. But when they are the chief line of defence against the Digital Economy Act, I have to suppress my gag reflex.

[3:37pm] sgardner: (Aude, just FWIW -- I am guessing the EFF is using one of the white-labeled services. I don't know that for sure, though.)

[3:38pm] kim_bruning: James_F, well, perhaps we need to shift their funding (this is what reddit is up to )

[3:38pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @tomorris - Exactly, and I'm trying to do something similar here. Still, it bothers me a lot.

[3:38pm] kim_bruning: James_F, alternately, we need some foreign govt. backpressure

[3:38pm] sgardner: Okay.

[3:38pm] James_F: kim_bruning> Doesn't work. Believe me.

[3:38pm] kim_bruning: James_F, right now, .us has been doing divide et imperia against .eu countries

[3:38pm] Narson: Welcome to consensus politics, sometimes you have to agree with people you wouldn't normally do so.

[3:38pm] Narson: Like Jimbo.

[3:38pm] sgardner: So why don't I recap the meeting we had in the office about SOPA, just before this IRC office hours?

[3:38pm] kim_bruning: James_F, we need to stand together and say no

[3:38pm] apergos: sure

[3:38pm] • StevenW 

looks at his watch and sees it's almost time for sgardner to go

[3:38pm] tommorris: Seth_Finkelstein: but saying that, that's no reason not to act politically. it's a reason to shower afterwards.

[3:38pm] Excirial: When did the US government ever really listen to external pressure, save from large entities?

[3:39pm] Bodnotbod: sgardner Yes please

[3:39pm] James_F: kim_bruning> Neelie is lovely but her trying to get involved in "US domestic politics" will back-fire very badly.

[3:39pm] ErrantX: gotta crash; fun discussion - nn all

[3:39pm] sgardner: So the meeting was me, Geoff, Philippe, StevenW, Stephen Laporte.

[3:39pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, what do we do about showering? irl?

[3:39pm] kim_bruning: James_F, Hahaha. Are you reading my mind?

[3:39pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @Narson - YES. Jimbo won't beleive it, but I'm being very, very moderate.

[3:39pm] tommorris: kim_bruning: I don't want ot think about it. we could just go on a mass deletion purge.

[3:39pm] Moonriddengirl: Night, ErrantX!

[3:39pm] James_F: kim_bruning> I know this field. :-)

[3:39pm] sgardner: We were meeting to talk about what to do about SOPA. Like I said earlier, it looked like there was community consensus to do something, but it wasn't clear what.

[3:39pm] kim_bruning: James_F, SOPA is problematic because it messes with DNS (bad for EU market)

[3:40pm] kim_bruning: James_F, and sopa is also problematic because it messes with payment processors

[3:40pm] tommorris: oh, wait, kim_bruning, I forget... PWD. madness! *anyone* could go on a mass deletion purge then we can go on a mass rollback purge ;-)

[3:40pm] Sargoth: maybe if iran, north korea and cuba would put some pressure kim_bruning :P

[3:40pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @@tomorris - shower doesn't help if you're poisoned.

[3:40pm] sgardner: And it looked like the internet was achieving consensus that January 18 was the day to take action, and so we were beginning to be concerned about whether the community was going to be able to reach a consensus before then.

[3:40pm] kim_bruning: James_F, Fortunately, SWIFT moved their HQ to brussels, but that might not be sufficient

[3:40pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, or you can just block them, like we do for anyone On Wheels! ;-)

[3:41pm] sgardner: So we talked about all the pros and cons of what we could do. I want people to understand that the Wikimedia Foundation is not leading the decision-making on SOPA, but we are supporting whatever decision the community makes.

[3:41pm] tommorris: kim_bruning: I want Jimbo On Jellies.

[3:41pm] Narson: Sargoth: Actually, you can expect some gloating statement from one of the 'usual suspects' about any wikipedia blackout protesting the US Gov.

[3:41pm] sgardner: And, I had earlier promised we would help with banners, technical support, and whatever else was needed -- but I knew we would need time to get the work done, and so the community consensus would need to happen early enough that we could have time to do whatever work would need to be done.

[3:41pm] kim_bruning: Seth_Finkelstein, Decontam showers do help a bit.  Or we could just do what the chernobyl cleanup  folks did and drink lots of vodka. Doesn't actually help, but  at least you die cheerfully ;-)

[3:41pm] StevenW: /msg chanserv mode irc://irc.freenode.net/#wikimedia-office +m

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[3:41pm] StevenW: heh

[3:41pm] sgardner: So.

[3:42pm] Thehelpfulone: StevenW: need some help? ;)

[3:42pm] Narson: The Foundation has a clear cut off for when a decision must be in place by I take it, sgardner?

[3:42pm] tommorris: sgardner: you sure you can't just have a convenient one-day downtime on the 18th for essential server upgrades and let us be done with this?

[3:42pm] kim_bruning: sgardner, so early enough means... like... yesterday

[3:42pm] James_F: StevenW> I think that wouldn't be appropriate. :-)

[3:42pm] kim_bruning: I'm with tommorris

[3:42pm] Excirial: tommorris - slightly offtopic, but the "got to shower" comment made me think of this one: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20101128.gif

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[3:42pm] apergos: if people wanted to use the it wp code we could have a decision the night before and still be on time (assuming there was agreement on the text to be displayed)

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[3:43pm] sgardner: We provisionally decided that we (the Wikimedia Foundation) would propose a clear actionable RfC for the enWP community to discuss and respond to. Not because we want to take a leadership role, but more in the service of the community, wanting to reflect back to it the consensus we think we have seen emerging -- so it can be debated, discussed, refined etc.

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[3:43pm] sgardner: Basically, planting a flag in the ground to give people something to react to, in hopes that it would help people move to a decision faster.

[3:43pm] Theo10011: sgardner: would WMF ever consider taking a lead on this?

[3:43pm] log: Where would this RfC be advertised?

[3:43pm] sgardner: Decision is up to you -- but we want to help you get there.

[3:43pm] Theo10011: advocacy was something that was being considered.

[3:43pm] Thogo: global notice, log?

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[3:43pm] kim_bruning: log VPP?

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[3:43pm] jorm: sgardner: that seems smart.

[3:43pm] James_F: sgardner> Yes.

[3:43pm] log: How about other languages?

[3:44pm] Excirial: WP:CENT on the english wiki at least, and the village pumps.

[3:44pm] tommorris: sgardner: I'm leaning towards the view that given enwiki's inability to take a decision, having the Foundation decide on the basis of the countless discussions that have already happened might be preferable

[3:44pm] jorm: could we run a central notice about the rfc?  "come here and vote yay/nay on this proposal?

[3:44pm] sgardner: So, this office hours has been really helpful to me --- to us, here in the office. Because I think it's helped us figure out what terms to propose. Doesn't mean they are the right terms necessarily, but they will give a good starting point for the discussion.

[3:44pm] Narson: It feels a lot like the WMF wants a specific answer and is trying to prompt the community along to it.

[3:44pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, Either that, or I could pull an ed poor?

[3:44pm] sgardner: Which is great, because it means we're not making it up ourselves (the WMF) -- the terms have a community origin.

[3:44pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @sgardner - Seriously, in my view, if the process is to be *legit*, you can't have WMF staff pushing it in one direction

[3:44pm] jsalsman: tommorris: putting a proposal out there with all the details fleshed out should work

[3:44pm] Bodnotbod: sgardner , that sounds rather like what I proposed earlier: WMF can present us with a poll of options and we could vote on it. We just get to tick an option rather than discuss it.

[3:44pm] kim_bruning: (who remembers ed poor's deletion of VFD? ;-) )

[3:44pm] sgardner: Narson: no, we're really not. We truly are just trying to facilitate.

[3:45pm] tommorris: we've already had enough discussion to fill a novel.

[3:45pm] sgardner: I am going to go back now and re-read stuff people have written, while I wrote this :-)

[3:45pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @sgardner - It's not worth it for me to make a brief on how that's been happening, I'll take a formal hit for it.

[3:45pm] kim_bruning: Bodnotbod, let's just say that our experience with WMF polls has not been very good and leave it at that

[3:45pm] apergos: any specific proposal should mention that certain implementations will take less time (name them) and others need a longer lead time)

[3:45pm] kim_bruning: Bodnotbod, I'd prefer not to have to take shooting lessons. ;-)

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[3:45pm] log: kim_bruning: heh

[3:45pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @sgardner - But as a quick IRC statement, there's been too muhc fist (not thumb) on scales

[3:46pm] Narson: I really think that it would be better if the WMF just decided that the feeling that 'something must be done' needed to be funnelled by the WMF into something like the blackout and made that call - damn the torpedos and all that. But ah, tis an imperfect world and it doesn't yet operate according to my whim.

[3:46pm] kim_bruning: sgardner, btw, I should challenge you, SJ and Phoebe to a duel over that poll. I demand satisfaction and all that

[3:46pm] tommorris: Narson += 1

[3:46pm] kim_bruning: sgardner, I know the challenged party generally gets to set weapon and place and time

[3:46pm] jsalsman: there are already 21 Google news hits on [wikipedia "january 18" sopa]

[3:46pm] Excirial: Just go ahead and do something - make apologies afterwards if it turns out bad.

[3:46pm] kim_bruning: sgardner, but may I suggest super soakers at high noon, during washington wikimania? ;-)

[3:46pm] sgardner: apergos: that's a good idea. For example: a white-labeled solution might not be possible in the time we've got (it may be, I just don't know). So we would want to be really up-front about what's feasible and how much energy various options would take.

[3:46pm] log: I think what the community needs is clear proof of this bill's possible effects on Wikipedia so that people are more willing to support, say, a blackout.

[3:46pm] Bodnotbod: Kim_bruning I agree that polls are always argued about for their wording afterwards and accused of "asking the wrong questions" etc. But I can't see any way of achieving a result in a short time other than that.

[3:46pm] tommorris: whatever an RfC decided, there'd be a whole stack more RfCs on closing, on Foundation interference, on seventeen unrelated issues

[3:47pm] kim_bruning: Excirial, that's probably not going to go down well ;-)

[3:47pm] jorm: heh. i could design a logo.

[3:47pm] sgardner: Narson: I don't think we have a deadline for a decision yet -- Philippe, StevenW, did we discuss that?

[3:47pm] Narson: Don't forget the inevitable claim it is a Jewish conspiracy, Tommorris.

[3:47pm] tommorris: at this point, the community needs leadership rather than more discussion

[3:47pm] Philippe: We didn't.

[3:47pm] kim_bruning: Narson, left-wing liberal conspiracy!

[3:47pm] apergos: that's us

[3:47pm] Narson: Ironholds is the best of both worlds.

[3:47pm] Excirial: kim_bruning - Not like it would be the first time though, and after that it is done and over already anyway ;)

[3:47pm] Seth_Finkelstein: Google conspiracy! :-)

[3:47pm] Theo10011: Progressives!!!! ;)

[3:47pm] StevenW: No, it was dependent on how much time would need to be spent on tech work before the switch was flipped.

[3:47pm] Bodnotbod: I finally have to ask: what is "white label" referring to in this discussion?

[3:47pm] kim_bruning: how about a bipartisan conspiracy? ;-)

[3:47pm] James_F: jsalsman> Indeed. We will also need to get out in front on the story with a proper release before it goes live.

[3:48pm] YairRand: how about just the Cabal?

[3:48pm] Thogo: what would be the most time-consuming solution that we have considered by now?

[3:48pm] sgardner: Seth: We're not trying to push it. We're really not. What I am trying to avoid is, a last-minute decision that can't be implemented, because there is no time. The discussion can (and should) go wherever it wants to go: my only aim is to get it to resolution before time runs out, and it becomes moot.

[3:48pm] Theo10011: kim_bruning: too intricate for US politics.

[3:48pm] kim_bruning: YairRand, TINC!

[3:48pm] Theo10011: The cabal!

[3:48pm] Philippe: Bodnotbod: white-label means externally provided but unbranded

[3:48pm] Ironholds: Narson: quiet, you

[3:48pm] WereSpielChequer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-label_product

[3:49pm] Philippe: thanks, WSC

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[3:49pm] Narson: Ironholds: I'm sick and you didn't bring me soup. I shall not do as thou wish.

[3:49pm] Theo10011: I really would prefer that if we do go this route, we have a WMF branded page with a clickthrough option, and a link to a page with contact details of all the senators

[3:49pm] kim_bruning: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cabal

[3:49pm] StevenW: Log: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/12/13/how-sopa-will-hurt-the-free-web-and-wikipedia/

[3:49pm] kim_bruning: Theo10011, not an enwp branded page?

[3:49pm] log: StevenW: Ah, missed that one. Thanks!

[3:49pm] kim_bruning: not all of wmf is affected

[3:49pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @StevenW - Note that's partially based on OLD version

[3:49pm] Theo10011: It really won't be that hard to setup sgardner. Maybe a day at most and 2 staff people.

[3:50pm] kim_bruning: (and even if they are, we could move the servers :-))

[3:50pm] sgardner: tommorris: yes. It needs leadership, of a sort. But facilitation-style leadership, not decision-making leadership.

[3:50pm] kim_bruning: (and even block the us from accessing wp)

[3:50pm] log: Is this blackout only going to apply to Wikipedia? What about the other projects, like Commons?

[3:50pm] Theo10011: kim_bruning: pref. no, Wikimedia would be ideal IMO.

[3:50pm] kim_bruning: tommorris, I'm appointing you as the leader of the sopa cabal  ;-)

[3:50pm] sgardner: What the WMF is doing here is actually a Quaker-style action. Saying "we think this is what you want, are we right?"

[3:50pm] Narson: I'm fairly sure a blackout of WikiCommons will upset 4 people, and 2 of those people are old nuns high up in the Alps.

[3:50pm] • log 

slaps Narson. :P

[3:50pm] tommorris: log: that never really got discussed. I know that certain sister projects (wikinews in particular) would howl angrily about project independence.

[3:50pm] kim_bruning: sgardner, yay for society of friends and consensus

[3:51pm] Theo10011: heh

[3:51pm] Theo10011: meh en.wn

[3:51pm] kim_bruning: we definitely need to get talking with the en* folks too

[3:51pm] kim_bruning: there's no central location... except meta...

[3:51pm] StevenW: No slapping in here. Just trout slapping.

[3:51pm] Theo10011: there is little they won

[3:51pm] Theo10011: won't howl about

[3:51pm] StevenW: ;)

[3:51pm] tommorris: if we blocked Commons, how would people find photographs of electric toothbrushes, exactly?

[3:51pm] kim_bruning: can we get a volunteer to do that?

[3:51pm] sgardner: You guys are making me laugh out loud. Why is log slapping Narson!?

[3:51pm] SpeakFree: @kim_bruning Village Pump proposals ?

[3:51pm] • kim_bruning 

slaps a trout with StevenW

[3:52pm] StevenW: haha

[3:52pm] StevenW: okay I think we're done

[3:52pm] Philippe: ....wow

[3:52pm] Seth_Finkelstein: @sgardner - Again, "manufacture of consent". When people are being told that something will kill Wikipedia, of course they want to protest it!

[3:52pm] sgardner: I think silliness is the signal that we're done.

[3:52pm] Theo10011: lol tommorris

[3:52pm] sgardner: LOLOLOL.

[3:52pm] kim_bruning: StevenW, you did say I was only allowed to slap trouts

[3:52pm] log: tommorris: Ha.

[3:52pm] Philippe: On that note…. I'm gonna bail.  :P

[3:52pm] Philippe: See ya'll.  :D

[3:52pm] apergos: l8r

[3:52pm] Theo10011: later pb

[3:52pm] Narson: Thank you sgardner, was very interesting.

[3:52pm] James_F: sgardner> You know what the end of Office hours means? More Fundraising discusion fun! ;-(

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[3:52pm] Theo10011: say hi to jay, pb and jay.

[3:52pm] Theo10011: ;)

[3:52pm] sgardner: Okay. Thank you very much folks. I felt like this was really useful: thank you :-)

[3:52pm] James_F: Thanks everyone for the conversation.

[3:52pm] sgardner: Bye Theo!

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[3:52pm] sgardner: Bye folks :-)

[3:52pm] tommorris: oh damn, missed PB

[3:52pm] Thogo: thanks sgardner

[3:52pm] Theo10011: bye sgardner

[3:53pm] Excirial: Cya laters then!