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IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-01-22

< IRC office hours
        • BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 22 17:40:28 2013


Jan 22 17:40:28 * Now talking on #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 17:40:28 * Topic for #wikimedia-office is: Office hours at 18:00 UTC (22 Jan) | Q&A with WMF General Counsel about the work of the Legal and Community Advocacy Team
Jan 22 17:40:28 * Topic for #wikimedia-office set by Thehelpfulone!~Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone at Tue Jan 22 17:21:05 2013
Jan 22 17:40:28 * #wikimedia-office :http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours
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Jan 22 17:46:33 * Thehelpfulone has changed the topic to: Office hours at 18:00 UTC (22 Jan) | Q&A with WMF General Counsel about the work of the Legal and Community Advocacy Team | Topics for discussion http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-January/123722.html
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Jan 22 17:55:12 <SteveMobile> Hi Geoff
Jan 22 17:55:33 <gbrigham> Hi Steve. Hope everyone has recovered well from the holidays.
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Jan 22 17:59:03 <luisv> hi, gbrigham
Jan 22 17:59:14 <gbrigham> Hi luisv!
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Jan 22 18:00:26 <SteveMobile> Hi Ironholds
Jan 22 18:00:37 <Ironholds> hi
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Jan 22 18:01:04 * siebrand smiles.
Jan 22 18:01:10 <Moonriddengirl> Hi everyone. :) We are happy to spend the next hour talking about issues facing the Legal and Community Advocacy Department. People are free to raise any topics, but some relevant recent subjects may include the following:
Jan 22 18:01:18 * mpaulson (~mpaulson@216.38.130.165) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:01:30 <Moonriddengirl> 1. The ongoing community consultation on the proposed conflict of interest guidelines: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_potential_conflicts_of_interest & https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/01/04/wikimedia-community-input-requested-for-conflict-of-interest-guidelines/
Jan 22 18:01:32 <Moonriddengirl> 2. The naming of thematic organizations and user groups: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/01/18/naming-of-new-wikimedia-movement-entities/
Jan 22 18:01:33 <Moonriddengirl> 3. The recent dismissal of the case that Internet Brands filed against two Wikimedians and WMF’s support of their defense; and the court’s denial of Internet Brands motion to dismiss in the case brought by WMF: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/28/update-to-internet-brands-travel-site-lawsuit/ & https://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/12/17/state-court-overrules-internet-brands-demurrer/
Jan 22 18:01:35 <Moonriddengirl> 4. Recent court victories in Germany and France: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/12/04/two-german-courts-rule-in-favor-of-free-knowledge-movement/
Jan 22 18:01:36 <Moonriddengirl> 5. Trademark licensing: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2012/11/02/licensing-at-the-wikimedia-foundation/
Jan 22 18:01:38 <Moonriddengirl> 6. Upcoming plans 2013
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Jan 22 18:01:57 * Demiurge1000 (~chatzilla@wikipedia/Demiurge1000) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:02:00 <gbrigham> Hi everyone - Greatly appreciate everyone joining.
Jan 22 18:02:05 * jeromyu (~jeromyu@wikimedia/Yuyu) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:02:13 <gbrigham> Stephen and Michelle are here with me as well to answer questions.
Jan 22 18:02:38 <slaporte> Hello everyone
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Jan 22 18:02:44 <jeromyu> hi
Jan 22 18:02:58 <gbrigham> hi jeromyu
Jan 22 18:03:16 <SteveMobile> How's the case against Internet brands going?
Jan 22 18:03:28 <gbrigham> The case is going quite well.
Jan 22 18:03:44 <gbrigham> As you know, Internet Brands chose to sue two Wikimedians.
Jan 22 18:03:52 * mindspillage (~kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:04:00 <gbrigham> We made a decision at WMF to support the defense of these Wikimedians
Jan 22 18:04:03 * Philippe (~Philippe@wikimedia/Philippe) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:04:15 <gbrigham> One of the best internet litigation firms in the country was retained.
Jan 22 18:04:36 <gbrigham> To make a long story short, the federal court has dismissed all counts against the Wikimedians.
Jan 22 18:04:38 * Nicole_WMDE (~Nicole@g229091253.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:04:41 <gbrigham> We are quite pleased with the result.
Jan 22 18:04:49 <SteveMobile> I saw the blog post about that
Jan 22 18:04:50 <gbrigham> We also decided to sue Internet Brands.
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Jan 22 18:04:57 <SteveMobile> Yeah, that bit
Jan 22 18:05:04 <SteveMobile> How is that going?
Jan 22 18:05:05 <gbrigham> Internet Brands tried to have our case dismissed.
Jan 22 18:05:08 <gbrigham> They failed.
Jan 22 18:05:14 <jeromyu> O
Jan 22 18:05:18 <SteveMobile> :-)
Jan 22 18:05:22 <gbrigham> A court has recognized our right to move forward. And we will.
Jan 22 18:05:36 <siebrand> What is it you want from IB?
Jan 22 18:05:40 * Philippe_ (~Philippe@216.38.130.165) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:05:43 <SteveMobile> Karma ftw
Jan 22 18:05:45 * MatthewARoth (~MatthewAR@216.38.130.165) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:05:47 <siebrand> :)
Jan 22 18:05:53 <SteveMobile> Hi Philippe_
Jan 22 18:05:59 * Philippe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
Jan 22 18:06:04 * Philippe_ is having connection problems, so sorry
Jan 22 18:06:06 * Philippe_ is now known as Philippe
Jan 22 18:06:16 <SteveMobile> In San Francisco?
Jan 22 18:06:21 <gbrigham> We need to ensure against any interference with Wikivoyage.
Jan 22 18:06:22 <Demiurge1000> Philippe: omg now we know your IP address! :D
Jan 22 18:06:36 * Philippe is now known as Guest67094
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Jan 22 18:06:57 <gbrigham> In addition to the IB litigation, we have had a number of victories internationally as well.
Jan 22 18:07:07 <ragesoss> Demiurge1000: I think you mean, omg, some is impersonating Philippe!
Jan 22 18:07:16 <ragesoss> *someone
Jan 22 18:07:17 <Ironholds> answer: yes, and it's ragesoss
Jan 22 18:07:18 * Moonriddengirl is now known as mdennis
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Jan 22 18:07:31 <SudoGhost> Certain Wikipedia policies, such as WP:ELNO and WP:NOTCENSORED specifically point out that Wikipedia should not contain "content that is illegal to access in the state of Florida (since Wikipedia's servers are located there)." Does the data center migration thing change this?
Jan 22 18:07:35 <gbrigham> We have chosen to litigate aggresively internationally and to date the court results have been quite solid, often supporting not only WMF but also Wikimedia values, such as the CC license.
Jan 22 18:08:02 * CalF (~CalF@cpc14-linl9-2-0-cust99.18-2.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:08:07 <siebrand> gbrigham: Thanks. And congratulations.
Jan 22 18:08:15 <gbrigham> We should avoid violating Florida law, but, to be frank, we need to think beyond Florida law as well.
Jan 22 18:08:26 <gbrigham> That is true whether or not our servers are in Florida.
Jan 22 18:08:36 <gbrigham> We generally require adherence to U.S. law.
Jan 22 18:08:51 * Guest67094 is now known as Philippe
Jan 22 18:08:53 <gbrigham> So the new data centers will not change our approach.
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Jan 22 18:09:10 <SteveMobile> Would it change the wording?
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Jan 22 18:09:26 <SudoGhost> gbrigham: I'm certainly not suggesting that we should violate laws as long as we're in the clear with Florida, but are the wording of those policies still accurate?
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Jan 22 18:09:48 <gbrigham> Yes ... I would recommend that we encourage adherence to U.S. law, which is consistent with our language in the Terms of Use. Indeed, the Terms of Use provides model language.
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Jan 22 18:10:12 <tommorris> I guess the main thing is something like obscenity, would the standards that Virginia apply differ significantly from Florida?
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Jan 22 18:10:19 <gbrigham> Good question
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Jan 22 18:10:41 <gbrigham> Possibly. Courts will look at it on a case-by-case basis.
Jan 22 18:10:43 <Seth_Finkelstein> @tommorris +1
Jan 22 18:10:44 <tommorris> last time I looked at US obscenity law, it was based around the moral standards of a community.
Jan 22 18:10:51 * Philippe is now known as Guest55447
Jan 22 18:11:03 <JasonDC> tommorris, thats what i thought
Jan 22 18:11:04 <gbrigham> But big picture the standards are the same. How a jury applies those standards will vary not only by state but by court.
Jan 22 18:11:09 <tommorris> but then I'm just a dude with a laptop in the UK. ;-)
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Jan 22 18:11:36 <shimgray> so would the best solution be to drop the specific state language and just say, eg, "...content that is illegal to access in the United States"?
Jan 22 18:11:36 <gbrigham> Dudes with laptops in UK know a heck about U.S. law ... is my experience.
Jan 22 18:11:49 <gbrigham> Probably ...
Jan 22 18:11:56 <SteveMobile> What jury would find against Wikipedia? :-)
Jan 22 18:11:57 <shimgray> after all, US-illegal content won't magically be not-illegal in FL or VA ;-)
Jan 22 18:12:00 <Seth_Finkelstein> @gbrigham - "But big picture the standards are the same"??? Can you please clarify?
Jan 22 18:12:04 <tommorris> gbrigham: not nearly as much as I know about British copyright law. but anyway.
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Jan 22 18:12:15 <gbrigham> The Miller test applies across the entire country.
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Jan 22 18:12:30 <Jamesofur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test
Jan 22 18:12:38 <gbrigham> There is a community element which leaves discretion to the jury in practice.
Jan 22 18:12:43 <Seth_Finkelstein> @gbrigham - Yes, but _Miller_ test has the "community standards" prong
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Jan 22 18:13:46 <Jamesofur> true, though the other 2 prongs are going to be generally the same everywhere
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Jan 22 18:13:59 <SudoGhost> shimgray: But I think it was worded that way in case Florida has some more specific laws than the United States in general.
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Jan 22 18:14:05 <shimgray> *nods*
Jan 22 18:14:39 <Jamesofur> (and all 3 prongs have to be met)
Jan 22 18:14:42 <SudoGhost> But I don't live in Florida or Virginia, so I know nothing about the laws there.
Jan 22 18:14:46 <tommorris> so, I guess the only important question is: in your legal opinion, does the shift across state lines to VA change any possible consequences that might befall either WMF or contributors?
Jan 22 18:14:48 * Philippe (d82682a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.38.130.164) has joined #wikimedia-office
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Jan 22 18:14:53 <tommorris> I'm pretty sure the WMF would have already considered that question. ;-)
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Jan 22 18:15:14 <gbrigham> I'm not worried about the differences between Virginia and Florida law.
Jan 22 18:15:17 * TAP|away (uid7812@wikipedia/Thine-Antique-Pen) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:15:25 * Risker wonders who this Philippe character is who keeps coming and going
Jan 22 18:15:30 * Philippe holds on, I think I'm actually logged on now. I dislike the compu-tron machine.
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Jan 22 18:15:49 <jorm> it is a fickle beast.
Jan 22 18:15:58 * jeromyu Poke Phillipe, do check mail lol
Jan 22 18:16:12 <Philippe> jeromyu: I will, I preume one of the 3,000 is from you? :)
Jan 22 18:16:14 <gbrigham> As the Terms of Use points out, however, the applicable law will depend on the circumstances - and may not be limited to the location of the servers.
Jan 22 18:16:14 * SteveMobile thinks Philippe doesn't use irc often
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Jan 22 18:16:23 <Philippe> SteveMobile: you think wrong.
Jan 22 18:16:25 * AnjaJ_WMDE (~anjawmde@e178182057.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:16:29 <Thehelpfulone> SteveMobile, I think it's just his computer hates IRC
Jan 22 18:16:34 <SteveMobile> Hah
Jan 22 18:16:38 * JasonDC (~Jason-Fre@wikipedia/Piandcompany) has left #wikimedia-office ("Leaving")
Jan 22 18:16:40 <Jamesofur> and our wireless network
Jan 22 18:16:40 <Thehelpfulone> it has problems with -en-admins too
Jan 22 18:16:50 <SteveMobile> Philippe: One of those 3000 is from me too :p
Jan 22 18:16:55 <gbrigham> For that reason, we do require adherence to U.S. law and the Terms of Use caution users about the possibility of their own courts trying to impose their laws.
Jan 22 18:16:59 <Risker> thanks gbrigham, that's something important for us to keep in mind
Jan 22 18:17:01 <jeromyu> Phillipe, you should really look carefully to mine, really important lol
Jan 22 18:17:01 <tommorris> gbrigham: here's an interesting question. Canada is contemplating instigating an Open Government License (Canada). It'd be like the UK version of the Open Government License, which is just a localised version of CC BY for government stuff. does LCA at WMF have any plans to contribute to a consultation on convincing the Canucks to open their government content up?
Jan 22 18:17:27 * lwelling (~owner@wikimedia/lwelling) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:17:29 <tommorris> that question may also be for Philippe. ;-)
Jan 22 18:17:51 <gbrigham> Stephen handles our policy issues so I will punt to him.
Jan 22 18:17:54 <Philippe> Isn't that my queue to drop offline then? :)
Jan 22 18:18:14 <Philippe> ooooh yeah, that one's Stephen.  :)
Jan 22 18:18:16 * jeromyu also pokes MatthewARoth and Jay Walsh :) for something, Email
Jan 22 18:18:33 <tommorris> or might that be something we just say is within the remit of WM Canada
Jan 22 18:18:45 * SickPanda (~YuviPanda@mediawiki/yuvipanda) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:19:07 <slaporte> tommorris: We have a guideline that explains our policy for work with affiliate organizations.
Jan 22 18:19:28 <SteveMobile> SickPanda: Not feeling well? Ate some bad bamboo?
Jan 22 18:19:30 * mpeel (~mpeel@wikipedia/Mike-Peel) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:19:45 <tommorris> do the LCA keep track of governments that have consultations regarding open government data and either talk to them or nudge chapters and local communities into talking to them?
Jan 22 18:19:47 <slaporte> For example, if there was community interest, it is something we would consider.
Jan 22 18:19:48 <SickPanda> SteveMobile: 36 hours up at a hackathon, including 30 cups of various types of Tea :)
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Jan 22 18:20:21 <slaporte> We have an advocacy advisors email list, and this would be a great topic for that gorup
Jan 22 18:20:24 <tommorris> the UK OGL means we have lots and lots of photos on Commons taken by people working for government, sorta like US gov public domain. getting other governments to do likewise would be useful
Jan 22 18:20:27 <SteveMobile> Maybe getting WM Canada involved would be a good idea
Jan 22 18:20:37 <slaporte> Here is a link to that group: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/advocacy_advisors
Jan 22 18:20:54 <mpaulson> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal_and_Community_Advocacy/Foundation_Policy_and_Political_Affiliations_Guideline
Jan 22 18:21:00 <mpaulson> and link to the policy
Jan 22 18:21:04 <gbrigham> That is true. Our advocacy email list is becoming more active and raises many interesting policy issues. I would encourage people to join and participate.
Jan 22 18:21:22 <gbrigham> We have limited resources and policy participation is a high resource endeavor.
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Jan 22 18:21:46 <gbrigham> But as we have shown with SOPA, we will be responsive to community requests in this area.
Jan 22 18:21:50 <tommorris> I think the portion of the community which wasn't too happy about things like the SOPA Initiative might be more happy to see WMF LCA productively contribute to government policy initatives before they reach the point where we have to threaten blackouts
Jan 22 18:22:07 <gbrigham> Yep.
Jan 22 18:22:28 <gbrigham> That is one reason we put together the policy and political affiliations guidelines.
Jan 22 18:22:33 <Seth_Finkelstein> @gbrigham - err, did you misspelling "Google" for "community requests there?
Jan 22 18:22:44 <gbrigham> We wanted to put in a process that required community input and review when appropriate.
Jan 22 18:22:47 <Philippe> Seth. <sigh>
Jan 22 18:23:12 <Seth_Finkelstein> @Philippe - sorry. shouldn't have.
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Jan 22 18:25:19 <gbrigham> I'm interested in what people think of the proposed Conflict of Interest Guidelines that are now under community consultation. (Maggie provided the link above.)
Jan 22 18:25:37 <slaporte> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_potential_conflicts_of_interest
Jan 22 18:25:54 <slaporte> Meta version: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Guidelines_on_potential_conflicts_of_interest
Jan 22 18:26:40 <Seth_Finkelstein> @gbrigham - I think the devil is in the details, as to what is "WMF" resources
Jan 22 18:27:01 <gbrigham> We provide examples of such resources in the guidelines.
Jan 22 18:27:17 <Thehelpfulone> gbrigham, are they still under consultation, "We anticipate closing the comment period on January 15, 2013" -> did you extend this?
Jan 22 18:27:20 <Seth_Finkelstein> @gbrigham - Yes, but the examples don't cover the hard cases
Jan 22 18:27:35 * Nemo_bis missed the deadline
Jan 22 18:27:42 <SteveMobile> Yeah what are "movement resources"
Jan 22 18:27:49 <mdennis> Some of the examples include "grants, staff time, scholarships, trademark licenses, travel reimbursements, fellowships, employment, and conference resources"
Jan 22 18:28:07 <SteveMobile> So, mostly money
Jan 22 18:28:10 <tommorris> Movement resources: money, servers, Jimbo's beard and Sue's relentless enthusiasm.
Jan 22 18:28:12 <Risker> Sorry, but I'd like to back up for a second to address Seth's comments about SOPA.
Jan 22 18:28:13 <gbrigham> Right.
Jan 22 18:28:16 <Risker> Seth, I'm going to address you on this right now. I am one of the admins who closed that discussion, and I can tell you that the WMF was pretty freaked out at our interpretation of the consensus on that discussion. And I can guarantee you google never came near any of us who closed the discussion.
Jan 22 18:28:26 <gbrigham> We are not tackling the "paid editing" issue in these guidelines.
Jan 22 18:28:29 <mdennis> tommorris: :)
Jan 22 18:28:38 <SteveMobile> Shouldn't we?
Jan 22 18:28:47 <tommorris> Risker: you are a shill of Big Pharma--I mean, Big Internet.
Jan 22 18:28:56 <gbrigham> I'm mostly concerned about making sure that resources bought with donor money are subject to proactive disclosures of conflicts of interest.
Jan 22 18:29:21 <SteveMobile> Makes sense, I guess
Jan 22 18:29:36 <Seth_Finkelstein> @Risker - With respect, do you really want to take the time to go over this? I can rebut, but I'm *trying* not to be perceived as campaigning.
Jan 22 18:29:40 <gbrigham> After those disclosures are made, the organization can then decide what to do. Sometimes it will require an independent evaluation as to whether the resources should be allocated as originally planned.
Jan 22 18:29:51 <tommorris> So, Guideline Three says "Answer fully and honestly any relevant and appropriate questions" - questions *from whom*?
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Jan 22 18:30:14 <gbrigham> In most cases from the relevant decision-maker.
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Jan 22 18:30:18 <SteveMobile> WMF about what the money had been used for?
Jan 22 18:30:22 <Seth_Finkelstein> @Risker - for exmaple, this is straw man "And I
Jan 22 18:30:24 <Seth_Finkelstein> +can guarantee you google never came near any of us who closed the discussion"
Jan 22 18:30:27 <gbrigham> If you are applying for a grant, you should answer the questions honestly.
Jan 22 18:30:47 <Philippe> Seth, I think you made your point, Risker answered it, and neither of you is likely to be moved from your position. Maybe let's just agree that it's not the topic of the day?
Jan 22 18:31:25 <tommorris> because I care a lot more if, oh, Philippe calls up a Wikimedia chapter and says "what the fuck were you thinking?" than some random IP troll on Meta six month down the line gets his panties in a bunch about a chapter spending too much money on a sandwich.
Jan 22 18:31:26 * RoanKattouw is now known as RoanKattouw_away
Jan 22 18:32:12 <Philippe> heh, thanks, tom. I rate somewhere above random IP troll... <grin>
Jan 22 18:32:13 <gbrigham> No - that is why the guideline says "relevant and appropriate" questions.
Jan 22 18:32:13 <tommorris> Not that Philippe would swear at any of our fine Chapter representatives for incompetence. That is obviously unnecessary.
Jan 22 18:32:33 <purplepopple> from whom also strikes me as important, because peole frequently sock to avoid personal responsibility while creating maximum chaos.
Jan 22 18:32:35 <gbrigham> Philippe usually yells at me for incompetence.
Jan 22 18:32:45 <Philippe> I rarely yell. I throw things.
Jan 22 18:32:47 <mpaulson> or anything at all
Jan 22 18:32:53 <SteveMobile> Hah
Jan 22 18:32:56 <gbrigham> My head still hurts.
Jan 22 18:33:00 <SteveMobile> Like, throw a tantrum?
Jan 22 18:33:01 <Philippe> You deserved it.
Jan 22 18:33:01 <mdennis> tommorris: Personally, I think the answer is implied in the "decision-maker or supervisor in charge of the allocation of the movement resources in question" bit above. :)
Jan 22 18:33:12 <SteveMobile> Or, tables?
Jan 22 18:33:18 <Philippe> Hulk MAD.
Jan 22 18:33:24 <SteveMobile> Hah
Jan 22 18:33:25 <Seth_Finkelstein> @Philippe - Sort-of agreed. Note, I apologized for the "Google" jibe. I think the issue casts a big shadow over the discussions now, but I am not trying to refight that specific battle here.
Jan 22 18:33:30 <Thehelpfulone> what about poor Rory?
Jan 22 18:33:38 <tommorris> mdennis: Indeed.
Jan 22 18:33:50 <mpaulson> philippe would never harm rory
Jan 22 18:33:52 <gbrigham> Rory is going through growing pains as the first tiger lawyer.
Jan 22 18:33:53 <Demiurge1000> "big shadow" lol. OMG we're in Mordor.
Jan 22 18:34:01 <Thehelpfulone> gbrigham, just in case you missed my question earlier: are they still under consultation, "We anticipate closing the comment period on January 15, 2013" -> did you extend this, or are you happy with the level of comments you've received thus far?
Jan 22 18:34:13 <SteveMobile> What's Rory's win-loss ratio
Jan 22 18:34:19 <gbrigham> I like the level of comments.
Jan 22 18:34:28 <Philippe> Rory has never lost. I'm thinking about suggesting to Sue that he's made G.C.
Jan 22 18:34:35 <gbrigham> I think people have made really thoughtful suggestions, which I have incorporated as much as possible.
Jan 22 18:34:38 * Fluffernutter (Fluffernut@wikipedia/Fluffernutter) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:34:46 <gbrigham> The guidelines are better because of the community consultation.
Jan 22 18:34:57 <gbrigham> We did get some professional translations.
Jan 22 18:35:01 <SteveMobile> Heh, at least Rory would never disagree with you, Philippe
Jan 22 18:35:08 <Philippe> You'd think, but....
Jan 22 18:35:12 <gbrigham> and have provided them to the community and have posted them.
Jan 22 18:35:28 <SteveMobile> The recommendations look good
Jan 22 18:35:30 <gbrigham> So I want to keep the discussion open for another month or so to ensure we have the international input.
Jan 22 18:35:36 <Philippe> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Rory btw
Jan 22 18:35:47 <SteveMobile> As long as they're in plain English
Jan 22 18:35:47 <gbrigham> This is the big challenge for me ... improving international participation in these legal consultations.
Jan 22 18:35:53 <jeromyu> you really have one
Jan 22 18:36:07 <sumanah> gbrigham: am I right in inferring that the new liaison team LCA is hiring will help with that?
Jan 22 18:36:17 <Philippe> sumanah: that's the goal.  :)
Jan 22 18:36:18 <gbrigham> Yes.
Jan 22 18:36:24 <gbrigham> Philippe ... take that one.
Jan 22 18:36:26 <sumanah> sorry I mean "Community Advocate (Languages)" from https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings
Jan 22 18:36:51 <Philippe> Well, taht's exactly it - the goal of those hires is to find ways to make sure the voices of our international community are reflecting in that type of discussion.
Jan 22 18:36:58 * SteveMobile likes Philippe about that
Jan 22 18:37:02 <SteveMobile> Pokes
Jan 22 18:37:09 <sumanah> BTW how is that hiring going? Do you have enough leads or would you like for us to be reaching out more to get more candidates?
Jan 22 18:37:20 * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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Jan 22 18:37:38 <Philippe> sumanah: I'm definitely interested in any high quality candidates that would be interested. I've got a couple of great ideas, but am always open to more.
Jan 22 18:37:44 <SteveMobile> Some more obscure languages would be tough to find?
Jan 22 18:37:48 <gbrigham> Actually it is a nasty internal fight between Rory and me for the GC position.
Jan 22 18:37:56 <gbrigham> He is always trying to make me look bad
Jan 22 18:37:59 <sumanah> SteveMobile: http://hire.jobvite.com/Jobvite/Job.aspx?j=oUFVWfwa&c=qSa9VfwQ "The advocates speak and write fluently in at least two targeted languages, including French, German, Japanese, Polish, Spanish, Italian, and Russian. "
Jan 22 18:38:05 <Ironholds> gbrigham: would you say the claws have come out? :P
Jan 22 18:38:10 <gbrigham> by looking so wise by being so silent at meetings.
Jan 22 18:38:45 <gbrigham> It is quite nasty. I tried not feeding him for a few weeks, but I later found out that he doesn't eat.
Jan 22 18:38:48 <SteveMobile> sumanah: At the rate I'm going with Dora the Explorer, I'll speak fluent Spanish in no time :D
Jan 22 18:38:57 <sumanah> I hadn't realized till just now that the required qualifications include: fluent communication in English + 2 target languages, and *native* speaker of at least 1 of the target languages
Jan 22 18:39:18 * sumanah had not been reading the job description closely enough!
Jan 22 18:39:21 <SteveMobile> Ohh, neither did I
Jan 22 18:39:26 <Philippe> Yep... we're really looking for that level of competency. I've been pleased with the candidates we've seen.
Jan 22 18:39:48 <SteveMobile> Look for someone that knows all of them?
Jan 22 18:39:53 <sumanah> that's great. Do you think they'll all start at once, or you'll bring them on board a little more staggered?
Jan 22 18:39:54 <Philippe> I think it's really important that they be able to reflect accurately not just an academic view of the language but an actual understanding of the communities behind them.
Jan 22 18:40:04 <Thehelpfulone> I think that would be asking for a lot SteveMobile
Jan 22 18:40:04 <Philippe> Not sure, sumanah, that will depend on timing.
Jan 22 18:40:12 <sumanah> Sure, understandable
Jan 22 18:40:40 <Philippe> We're at the 20 minute mark, folks.
Jan 22 18:40:41 * sumanah is eager for them to start :-)
Jan 22 18:40:53 <Philippe> I'd also like to say.....
Jan 22 18:41:00 <Philippe> if you're interested in that type of work as a volunteer, contact me.
Jan 22 18:41:04 <Philippe> I can put you to work today. :)
Jan 22 18:41:22 <Nemo_bis> QUESTION: Is OTRS upgrade (https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22622#c40 ) a priority, who's responsible for it? As in, who defines if it's a priority or something that can wait for two more years if the volunteer fails to upgrade or whatever? And who's supposed to test bugs in OTRS component against current and new release to see what are still current and/or would be fixed by upgrade? And what do you think https://bugzilla.wikim
Jan 22 18:41:30 <Philippe> Hi Nemo_bis, that's a great question.
Jan 22 18:41:37 <Nicole_WMDE> looking forward to working with them as well. I think there will be a lot of overlap with our work for example.
Jan 22 18:41:57 <Philippe> The OTRS upgrade is sitting with tech right now. CT keeps sending me updates, but the labs environment is prepared.
Jan 22 18:42:00 <sumanah> Nemo_bis: your line got cut off at the end for me at "And what do you think https://bugzilla.wikim"
Jan 22 18:42:04 * Lantus (~chatzilla@p579A8F40.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:42:20 <Nemo_bis> sumanah: thanks, And what do you think https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44146
Jan 22 18:42:29 <SteveMobile> Will spam be improved?
Jan 22 18:42:33 <Philippe> There's no question that I wish it were moving faster - it's a source of frustration for me - but I think people are awakened to the issue now, and we're getting some good support from Ops.
Jan 22 18:43:06 <Philippe> As for responsibility, the answer is "well, tech owns the upgrade path, but overall, I'm the contact for the customer service side."
Jan 22 18:43:12 <Philippe> In other words, it's shared responsibility.
Jan 22 18:43:35 <Nemo_bis> This is unsatisfactory, IMHO.
Jan 22 18:43:52 <Nemo_bis> (The shared responsibility.)
Jan 22 18:43:56 <Philippe> Speaking very frankly, I share your frustration.
Jan 22 18:44:43 <Philippe> Engineering is in the midst of a major upgrade path right now, with limited resources and other constraints of their own, and one of the things that we've done very well over the years is "make it work." I think that we did such an excellent job of that that there wasn't a sufficient sense of urgency.
Jan 22 18:44:46 <Philippe> That sense of urgency is there now.
Jan 22 18:44:53 <gbrigham> There is also an ongoing discussion about the naming of thematic organizations. I would encourage people to participate in this discussion.
Jan 22 18:44:56 * shimgray notes that it is almost exactly a year since Philippe and he had this same conversation in London
Jan 22 18:45:11 <gbrigham> Maggie set out the link above.
Jan 22 18:45:16 <shimgray> glad to see there is some more movement on OTRS this time :-)
Jan 22 18:45:22 <Philippe> shimgray: me too.
Jan 22 18:45:29 * RoanKattouw_away is now known as RoanKattouw
Jan 22 18:45:40 <Nemo_bis> Philippe: so, if OTRS upgraded needed some external help/financial investment, who would decide it?
Jan 22 18:45:50 <Philippe> Engineering would be responsible for that.
Jan 22 18:45:55 <Nemo_bis> (Not that I want to keep the conversation on this topic for much longer.)
Jan 22 18:45:58 <Philippe> Meaning, likely CT or Erik.
Jan 22 18:45:58 <Nemo_bis> Hm.
Jan 22 18:46:09 <Nemo_bis> Ok.
Jan 22 18:46:20 * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
Jan 22 18:46:28 <Bence> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Thematic_Organizations#Additional_thoughts_in_the_naming_of_thematic_organizations_and_user_groups
Jan 22 18:46:37 <Philippe> Nemo_bis: I will tell you that the pricing that we got was nearly a million dollars. That's why it's so important that we got volunteer help from the developer of OTRS.
Jan 22 18:47:03 <SteveMobile> Wow
Jan 22 18:47:06 <Philippe> Yup.
Jan 22 18:47:21 <Philippe> That volunteer aid is really important, and we owe Martin (who leads OTRS) a line of thanks for that.
Jan 22 18:47:25 <SteveMobile> Is it worth that sort of investment?
Jan 22 18:47:37 <Philippe> SteveMobile: Luckily, the volunteer help will preclude that.
Jan 22 18:47:47 <Risker> Geoff, I think it is a bad idea to grant marks or permit the use of "wikimedia" or similar names to thematic groups
Jan 22 18:48:28 <SteveMobile> Good :). Otrs sucks right now, but a million dollars....
Jan 22 18:48:42 <Bence> the naming question is one of the bigger blockers for there being not many/any of the new types of groups approved yet
Jan 22 18:49:20 <gbrigham> I think thoughtful people can disagree on this topic, but I am concerned about over use of "Wikimedia."
Jan 22 18:49:33 <Bence> included in the naming a number of questions of principle on where thematic organizations fit into the movement
Jan 22 18:50:11 <Risker> My thinking is that there is actually very little connection between the Thorgs and wikimedia. If they don't succeed in getting funding from WMF, then there's no tie that binds
Jan 22 18:50:40 <Bence> (e.g. should they have the level of exclusivity as chapters; should the names be chosen in a way to allow future groups in the same theme, etc.)
Jan 22 18:50:44 <gbrigham> I am concerned about legal issues, but also "exclusivity" in our naming practices.
Jan 22 18:51:18 <gbrigham> For example, we need to realize that our movement is bigger than (1) one project; (2) one language; (3) one geography.
Jan 22 18:52:26 <ragesoss> 'merican English Wikipedia, Inc.
Jan 22 18:52:44 <gbrigham> Personally, I don't think a thematic organization should claim the universal "Wikimedia" name unless they are able to address all projects, all languages, and all geographies.
Jan 22 18:52:55 <Thehelpfulone> ragesoss, wrong, British of course :)
Jan 22 18:52:55 <gbrigham> Otherwise the name should be tailored to the work they are actually doing.
Jan 22 18:53:03 <Philippe> As 'merican as Apple Pie....? I remember locking down that article once, Ragesoss, to keep Seddon from editing it. on the Fourth of July. From my apartment.
Jan 22 18:53:09 * Frakir (~nemesis@unaffiliated/frakir) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:53:15 <Demiurge1000> Clearly WMUK should actually be Britimedia UK then :)
Jan 22 18:53:23 <Risker> I don't think they should get it regardless, Geoff. There's no thematic group that can meet that standard.
Jan 22 18:53:34 <Demiurge1000> BritiWiki. Err.
Jan 22 18:53:45 <Bence> I don't think we can reasonably expect any group to meet that standard
Jan 22 18:54:00 * jvandavier has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
Jan 22 18:54:19 <Bence> (probably not chapters, and if we discount the servers one has to think hard what the WMF does for some of the very small projects)
Jan 22 18:54:25 <SteveMobile> Austramedia AU sounds silly
Jan 22 18:54:40 <gbrigham> Servers are pretty important to a web site.
Jan 22 18:54:48 <Philippe> discounting the servers, the software, the legal defense....
Jan 22 18:54:58 <Ironholds> SteveMobile: at least comfort yourself with the knowledge that micronesiamedia is sillier.
Jan 22 18:55:09 <gbrigham> :) sorry for being snarky Bence.
Jan 22 18:55:10 <Demiurge1000> ... the roads, the sewers... what have the Romans ever done for us?
Jan 22 18:55:21 <Philippe> lol@Demiurge1000
Jan 22 18:55:22 <gbrigham> :)
Jan 22 18:55:25 <SteveMobile> Heh
Jan 22 18:55:34 <Philippe> Five minutes, folks.
Jan 22 18:55:41 * K4-713 is now known as K4|meeting
Jan 22 18:55:42 * Risker likes the new snarky gbrigham, who starves Rory and dukes it out for the GC role
Jan 22 18:55:43 <Bence> sure, but that seems more an extension of things already done -- not sure how often does WMF buy new servers just for Wikispecies
Jan 22 18:55:45 <sumanah> (thanks for holding this, colleagues!)
Jan 22 18:56:00 <Philippe> If we're going to be the romans, I'd very much like to be called Caesar. Or some other kickass title.
Jan 22 18:56:04 <gbrigham> I spend time on its trademarks.
Jan 22 18:56:12 <gbrigham> I spend time on domain names.
Jan 22 18:56:24 <gbrigham> I spend time on defending all projects in foreign courts.
Jan 22 18:56:30 <Bence> (and I don't intend to take away the WMF's W)
Jan 22 18:56:32 <Philippe> I spend time on supporting its community.  :) I get the emails with questions, etc....
Jan 22 18:56:37 <SteveMobile> What's in the cards for LCA in the near future?
Jan 22 18:56:44 <gbrigham> I spend time on policies, like the Terms of Use, that apply to all projects.
Jan 22 18:56:51 <SteveMobile> (On)
Jan 22 18:57:06 <Demiurge1000> So, some BLP subject's "representative" who emailed me, is apparently confused/unhappy about the print-on-demand "Articles by Wikipedia" spam book people on Amazon etc. And he writes "as you may know many of the earlier pages (he means revisions) about (name) were libelous and defamatory... fortunately these were mainly corrected. but if this book contains all these libels,(name) will...
Jan 22 18:57:08 <Demiurge1000> ...obviously want to take legal action against the writers, but not hurt Wikipedia, what is the best way to do this?"
Jan 22 18:57:19 <gbrigham> Actually ... Bence knows I have incredible respect for him and his work.
Jan 22 18:57:19 * varnent has quit (Quit: varnent)
Jan 22 18:57:39 <gbrigham> But I do think we can fairly say that the WMF supports all projects on a regular basis.
Jan 22 18:57:41 <Philippe> Demiurge, that's a very good (and complex) question. Can I suggest that you email me the specifics and let's figure out a good response?
Jan 22 18:57:43 <Demiurge1000> What I've advised him first off is that any such book-on-demand material is likely printed when it's ordered, therefore won't be from old (defamatory) revisions
Jan 22 18:57:45 <jeromyu> I claim Hongkongmedia HK lol
Jan 22 18:57:49 <Demiurge1000> Philippe: ok
Jan 22 18:57:50 * fabriceferrer (~fabrice@wikipedia/Fabrice-Ferrer) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:58:06 <Demiurge1000> Philippe: I was going to ask if it's easier to just fob him off as I have done :D
Jan 22 18:58:06 <Thehelpfulone> gbrigham, don't forget the privacy policy in the not too distant future?
Jan 22 18:58:08 <shimgray> Demiurge1000: I believe they're printed from a single snapshot not built on the fly
Jan 22 18:58:10 <Philippe> Demiurge, not to minimize the question, it's a big one that I deal with frequently.
Jan 22 18:58:23 <Ironholds> Bence: never, because wikispecies isn't big enough to justify unique slaves. It lives on slaves with other small projects.
Jan 22 18:58:27 <Demiurge1000> ok, will drop you an email
Jan 22 18:58:27 <shimgray> (I've got one on my desk at work, I keep meaning to check the dates)
Jan 22 18:58:30 <Ironholds> Which I suspect both answers and undermines your question ;p
Jan 22 18:58:45 <Philippe> OK, I'm afraid we need to wrap up
Jan 22 18:58:51 <gbrigham> Everyone ... thanks so much for joining.
Jan 22 18:58:53 * smial (~ircsmial@i577BA075.versanet.de) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:58:59 <Demiurge1000> thanks for the updates, 'tis interesting
Jan 22 18:59:09 <Risker> thanks for your time, LCA folks :)
Jan 22 18:59:09 <gbrigham> I cannot tell you how much of an honor it is to work with you and the movement.
Jan 22 18:59:12 <Philippe> I'm glad I could finally get in for this one, thank you all for putting up with my incessant joins and parts earlier.
Jan 22 18:59:17 * mwalker has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
Jan 22 18:59:17 <gbrigham> Thank you for that privilege.
Jan 22 18:59:25 <SteveMobile> :)
Jan 22 18:59:27 <Philippe> +1 gbrigham
Jan 22 18:59:34 <Nicole_WMDE> thank you very much for your time, gbrigham and Philippe :)
Jan 22 18:59:43 <jeromyu> :)
Jan 22 18:59:45 <Philippe> Could someone who has a full log email it to me?
Jan 22 18:59:45 * Juraastro (~quassel@wikipedia/Juraastro) has joined #wikimedia-office
Jan 22 18:59:47 <Philippe> or post it?
Jan 22 18:59:48 <SteveMobile> gbrigham: I know exactly how you feel
Jan 22 18:59:53 <Seth_Finkelstein> @gbrigham Thanks for this. You're very polite and patient.
Jan 22 19:00:07 <Nicole_WMDE> are you planning to do this on a regular basis?
Jan 22 19:00:19 <shimgray> Philippe: will email it just now
Jan 22 19:00:25 <gbrigham> Sounds like a great topic for the next IRC, Thehelpfulone.
Jan 22 19:00:27 <Philippe> Nicole_WMDE: yes.  :) A few times a year, most likely.
Jan 22 19:00:31 <Bence> the point is that I see a difference between providing opportunities for all projects, actively ignoring them and actively working on them; the WMF is definitely not actively ignoring them; but when looking at thorgs and chapters this is more the scale to look at and I see it as unrealistic for any group to actively work on 800 projects
Jan 22 19:00:33 <Philippe> Thanks, shimgray
Jan 22 19:00:44 <Nicole_WMDE> Philippe k, thx! :)
Jan 22 19:00:49 <Philippe> OK, folks, I have a meeting.... ya'll have a great time-of-day!
Jan 22 19:00:54 <SteveMobile> Turrah
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Jan 22 19:01:49 <odder> mdennis: I saw Rkwon's answer about the Metawiki logo

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