IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-05-08

Time: 1700-1800 UTC

Channel: #wikimedia-office

Timestamps are in Indian Standard Time (IST)

[22:32]  <arrbee> === Wikimedia Language Engineering Office Hour - Start ===

[22:32]  <arrbee> Hello, Welcome to the office hour of the Wikimedia Language Engineering Team.

[22:33]  <arrbee> My name is Runa and I am the Outreach and QA coordinator for our team.

[22:33]  <odder> nice to meet you, Runa arrbee

[22:33]  <arrbee> The other members of our team present today are: aharoni alolita Nikerabbit pginer siebrand 

[22:34]  * siebrand greets you.

[22:34]  <arrbee> Nice to meet you too odder :)

[22:34]  <Micru> hi there

[22:34]  <arrbee> Our last office hour was held on April 10 2013

[22:34]  <marktraceur> siebrand: Hooked on a Feeling (and now I'll stop)

[22:34]  <arrbee> The logs are at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2013-04-10

[22:34]  <harshkothari> hi all

[22:35]  <arrbee> I'll be logging today as well.

[22:35]  <arrbee> In today's session we will briefly talk about some of the projects that we have been recently working on

[22:36]  <arrbee> Also we'll talk about our participation in Google Summer of Code (GSoC)

[22:36]  <arrbee> And Outreach Program for Women (OPW)

[22:36]  <arrbee> After that we would be happy to answer any questions

[22:37]  <arrbee> If you'd like to send in your questions before the Q&A, please send them to me as a private message.

[22:37]  <marktraceur> lmit 36

[22:37]  <arrbee> As I mentioned before, we are the Wikimedia Language Engineering Team.

[22:38]  * sucheta waves 

[22:38]  <sucheta> Hello all!

[22:38]  <arrbee> We work on enabling Language tools for MediaWiki and Wikimedia projects to provide internationalization and localization support for more than 300 languages

[22:39]  <arrbee> Our current focus currently is on:

[22:39]  <arrbee> 1. developing the modified features for Universal Language Selector and preparing it for deployment, 

[22:40]  <arrbee> 2. outreach activities, and

[22:40]  <arrbee> 3. summer projects

[22:40]  <arrbee> First topic of discussion: ULS - changes

[22:41]  <arrbee> The Universal Language Selector aka ULS is a tool to configure language settings

[22:41]  <arrbee> It replaces Narayam and WebFonts to provide a unified tool

[22:41]  <arrbee> It also adds user interface language selection

[22:42]  <arrbee> At the moment we are working on two things after we implemented the last design changes

[22:42]  <arrbee> 1. We are fixing bugs, and

[22:42]  <arrbee> 2. we are building integration tests with the Wikimedia QA team

[22:43]  <arrbee> We are planning to make ULS available to all Wikimedia projects

[22:43]  <arrbee> We can hopefully communicate a deployment plan within the next two weeks

[22:44]  <arrbee> So the following is provisional

[22:44]  <arrbee> ULS will be on every wiki in one of two ways:

[22:45]  <arrbee> 1. As a cog icon in the interlanguage links section of the sidebar menu in wikis that use interlanguage links

[22:46]  <arrbee> Those are all language versions of Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikiversity, Wiktionary,  Wikiquote, Wikivoyage, Wikinews, Wikisource

[22:46]  <arrbee> You can see this in action at: http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Special:Version

[22:47]  <arrbee> Unfortunately beta labs has a caching issue

[22:47]  <arrbee> So you may see <uls-plang-title-languages> instead of "Languages"

[22:47]  <arrbee> Or no cog icon on some pages while not logged in

[22:48]  <arrbee> We reported it as a bug: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/48203

[22:48]  <arrbee> 2. For non-interlanguage wikis the ULS is accessible in the personal toolbar

[22:49]  <arrbee> This is how it is already available on Meta-Wiki, Wikidata.org and translatewiki.net

[22:49]  <arrbee> It can also be tested at: http://commons.wikimedia.beta.wmflabs.org/wiki/Special:Version

[22:50]  <arrbee> We currently envision the rollout in 5 phases over 5 weeks

[22:51]  <arrbee> As we get closer to the actual dates we will communicate with the wiki communities involved in the first few phases

[22:51]  <arrbee> We will broadcast about the progress on the blog, wikitech-ambassadors, and wikitech-l

[22:51]  <arrbee> siebrand: Would you like to add anything more about this?

[22:52]  <siebrand> I could add a lot, but this is the most important.

[22:52]  <siebrand> We have room for questions if more details is needed.

[22:52]  <arrbee> Alright. Thanks.

[22:52]  <arrbee> Moving on

[22:52]  <arrbee> Second topic of discussion: MLEB - Release

[22:53]  <arrbee> A new version of the MediaWiki Language Extension Bundle (MLEB) was released in the last week of April 2013

[22:54]  <arrbee> From this version onwards MLEB can only be used with MediaWiki version 1.20.4 or above

[22:54]  <arrbee> Announcement and Release Notes are here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-i18n/2013-April/000677.html

[22:54]  <arrbee> The next release of MLEB is scheduled during the last week of May 2013

[22:55]  <arrbee> aharoni: Anything to add about this?

[22:55]  <aharoni> A couple of things:

[22:56]  <aharoni> 1. We'd love to hear more feedback about MLEB. We know that people are downloading it, and we received a couple of bug reports about it. We'd love to hear more feedback - positive and constructively negative.

[22:57]  <aharoni> 2. I am thinking of ways to improve the pre-release testing of MLEB, and I'd love to hear ideas about it.

[22:58]  <arrbee> You can write to us on the mediawiki-i18n list or even file bugs.

[22:59]  <arrbee> or ping us on #mediawiki-i18n

[22:59]  <arrbee> Thanks aharoni 

[22:59]  <arrbee> Third topic of discussion: Maven Program

[23:00]  <arrbee> We have started working on a handbook for the participants of the Maven program

[23:00]  <arrbee> A rough draft is available here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Language_tools/Language_Team_Plan/Maven_Handbook

[23:01]  <arrbee> This effort is in progress and we hope to build this together with the Language Maven team members

[23:01]  <arrbee> Some of the Maven team members are here today too: mirontoli Nemo_bis :)

[23:02]  <arrbee> That brings us to the last topic of discussion: GSoC and OPW

[23:03]  <arrbee> We had mentioned in our last office hour that we are participating in GSoC and OPW this year

[23:03]  <mirontoli> hello :)

[23:03]  <arrbee> We received quite a few interesting proposals and we are at present evaluating them

[23:04]  <arrbee> We are looking forward to an exciting summer of code :)

[23:05]  <arrbee> People who are not eligible for GSoC or OPW or somehow miss the bus can still start to  participate in our other projects

[23:05]  <arrbee> A list of these projects can be found here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mentorship_programs/Possible_projects#Internationalization_and_localization

[23:06]  <arrbee> That concludes the topics on the agenda. 

[23:06]  <Base-w> what is GSoC  & OPW?

[23:06]  <arrbee> We now move on to Q and A

[23:06]  <arrbee> Base-w: Google Summer of Code and Outreach Program for Women

[23:07]  <Base-w> thanks

[23:08]  <sankarshan> Is there a link to the project ideas for GSoC/OPW put forward by the Language Engineering team?

[23:09]  <arrbee> sankarshan: yes

[23:09]  <siebrand> :D

[23:09]  <ebernhardson> arrbee: question not about the above, but it was suggested this is a good place to ask:  I'm adding a stylized '?' icon to core for a particular feature and need to find out if an RTL version is also required.  Who/where would be the best place to ask for this, and future queries?

[23:10]  <siebrand> sankarshan: It was pasted 5 mins ago: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mentorship_programs/Possible_projects#Internationalization_and_localization

[23:10]  <sankarshan> siebrand, thank you.

[23:10]  <Nikerabbit> hi ebernhardson ;)

[23:10]  <siebrand> sankarshan: Actually that's the list of projects that DIDN'T make the OPW/GSoC list.

[23:10]  <ebernhardson> Nikerabbit: hi :)

[23:10]  <arrbee> ebernhardson: aharoni would be the person to seek

[23:11]  <siebrand> sankarshan: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Mentorship_programs/Possible_projects#Championing_i18n are the projects that did make the list.

[23:11]  <sankarshan> siebrand, thank you. again :)

[23:11]  <ebernhardson> arrbee: alright i will drop an email, thanks!

[23:11]  <siebrand> sankarshan: arrbee can always follow up by email with you...

[23:12]  <siebrand> ;)

[23:12]  <arrbee> siebrand: sankarshan: The page was indeed here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2013#Championing_i18n . But there is a re-org there.

[23:12]  <aharoni> ebernhardson: It's good to have a reversed question mark (؟) in languages written in the Arabic script - Arabic, Persian, Pashto, Urdu.

[23:12]  <aharoni> But it's definitely not needed for Hebrew.

[23:13]  <arrbee> sankarshan: siebrand: qgil may be able to point you to the earlier version of the list (if it still exists)

[23:13]  <sankarshan> arrbee, Alright. I will figure that out. Thanks for the links. Most interesting.

[23:13]  <siebrand> It's probably in the page history. sankarshan: Want me to look that up?

[23:13]  <arrbee> (i.e. out of the page history)

[23:13]  <aharoni> ebernhardson: (And don't confuse it with the Spanish question mark - ¿)

[23:14]  <qgil> hi, what do you need/

[23:14]  <ebernhardson> aharoni: ok, excelent info.  I will talk to our designer about having one made.  Would you suggest then having 3 icons, forward, reversed, and spanish?

[23:14]  <ebernhardson> aharoni: if it matters, the use case is an icon which brings up a tooltip

[23:14]  <aharoni> ebernhardson: A special icon is not needed for Spanish. Both questions marks are used in that language, and the regular one is OK.

[23:14]  <sankarshan> siebrand, Nope. I'll do that off-IRC, thank you for the offer.

[23:16]  <aharoni> ebernhardson: so two icons are enough - Arabic (؟) and regular (?).

[23:16]  <arrbee> One more thing: We would be having a Language Engineering presence at the Amsterdam Hackathon.

[23:17]  <Nikerabbit> me, siebrand and pginer

[23:17]  * siebrand at your service.

[23:17]  <aharoni> ebernhardson: actually, Greek uses ";" as a question mark and Armenian uses "՞", but better ask people who actually know these languages what to do with them. I think that a regular "?" will be OK for them.

[23:18]  <ebernhardson> aharoni: ok wonderfull, any suggestions on who to ping regarding armenian and greek, perhaps there is a list somewhere of who is fluent in which languages?

[23:19]  <siebrand> qgil: I think no one answered you yet. There was a possible need for an original list of proposed GSoC/OPW projects, before they were assessed - then 10, IIRC, later brought back to 4 or 5. I think sankarshan has enough information now to find it himself.

[23:19]  <siebrand> ebernhardson: Are you certain you need an icon, and cannot use CSS and message key contents?

[23:19]  <Nikerabbit> hmm, I would imagine that ? is pretty universal icon for "help" but I haven't checked what other sites do

[23:19]  <siebrand> ebernhardson: That would be the most flexible way.

[23:20]  <qgil> siebrand, sankarshan the original proposal came from email by arrbee with alolita CCed. I have it if you need it.

[23:20]  <aharoni> ebernhardson: try English Wikipedia talk pages of articles about these languages, and also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_el and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:User_am

[23:21]  <siebrand> qgil: Oh, didn't know that, but I'm almost certain we prepared it on-wiki, too.

[23:21]  <Nikerabbit> at least youtube uses (?) symbol for all languages on quick check

[23:21]  <ebernhardson> siebrand: hmm, i suppose it is possible css could do the trick along with a wfMessage(), When we initially put it together with (?) rather than an icon it looked a bit bland but perhaps css can clean that up

[23:21]  <Nikerabbit> we also have such icon in translate extension which does not have rtl or other versions

[23:22]  <aharoni> yes - "?" should be pretty universal. "؟" for Arabic is a nice bonus, not a strong requirement.

[23:24]  <Nikerabbit> more questions?

[23:24]  <arrbee> We have another 5 minutes

[23:24]  <arrbee> :)

[23:24]  <siebrand> IIRC we use a ? icon for WebFonts, Translate and Narayam, too, but if we make the effort once, we can just use it everywhere (and add it to Agora, right?)

[23:25]  <Nikerabbit> would make sense

[23:26]  <ebernhardson> hmm.  I suppose if its not a requirement, and other major internation sites use it, i would lean twords the embedded icon vs wfMessage() + css which i think provides a better look and feel,  Since this is going in core I will talk to a designer and have the arabic one put together

[23:26]  <siebrand> I've seen ‽ used recently in CentralAuth. Made me frown :)

[23:26]  <Nikerabbit> hah

[23:27]  <arrbee> :D

[23:27]  <Nikerabbit> ebernhardson: also ask for svg in case he/she makes a new one

[23:27]  <ebernhardson> Nikerabbit: will do

[23:27]  <siebrand> ebernhardson: Do not ask, require, as it is needed for high res screens.

[23:27]  <odder> SVG <3

[23:28]  <ebernhardson> ok, gotcha :)

[23:28]   Nikerabbit Nischayn22|Away

[23:28]  <arrbee> We are down to our last minute now.

[23:28]  <arrbee> But we will be around on #mediawiki-i18n

[23:29]  <arrbee> So please feel free to continue discussions on that channel :)

[23:30]  <arrbee> If nothing changes, then our next office hour is on June 12th

[23:30]  <Micru> arrbee, is this office hour already over?

[23:30]  <arrbee> We will be making all announcements well ahead of that date

[23:30]  <arrbee> Micru: In another minute.

[23:31]  <Micru> can i ask a question?

[23:31]  <arrbee> Micru: Sure, please go ahead

[23:31]  <arrbee> (if it takes longer we'll have to move to #mediawiki-i18n)

[23:31]  <Micru> what are the plans for machine translation integration? Is there something defined or still in drafting stage?

[23:32]  <arrbee> Nikerabbit: would you like to answer that?

[23:32]  <Nikerabbit> mmm

[23:33]  <Nikerabbit> Micru: basically we are relying on services done by other people

[23:33]  <Nikerabbit> and there aren't that many which are good and free

[23:33]  <Nikerabbit> but the Translate extension does have support for calling them in the translator interface

[23:34]  <Micru> I was referring to Erik's email from last week

[23:34]  <Micru> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2013-April/125350.html

[23:34]  <Nikerabbit> at this stage there are no concrete plans

[23:35]  <Nikerabbit> (but I will be attending a course about machine translation and Apertium next week, so who knows...)

[23:35]  <Micru> ah, that is great! I am planning to set up a meeting with some Apertium people, would you like to participate in the meeting?

[23:36]  <Micru> it would be online

[23:36]  <Nikerabbit> Micru: yes

[23:36]  <Micru> Nikerabbit, I will send you the details

[23:37]  <arrbee> Micru: Nikerabbit : We are now overtime. Don't want to keep anyone waiting if they are scheduled to use this channel :)

[23:38]  <Micru> that is fine!

[23:38]  <Micru> thanks for answering my question! :)

[23:38]  <arrbee> Thank you everyone for coming and for the questions. Please do write to us your thoughts about our work or things you'd like to see in internationalization.

[23:38]  <arrbee> Micru: most welcome :)

[23:38]  <arrbee> I'll be posting the logs shortly.

[23:39]  <arrbee> === Wikimedia Language Engineering Office Hour - End ===