IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-06-12

Time: 1700-1800 UTC

Channel: #wikimedia-office

Timestamps are in UTC.

02  siebrand: === Wikimedia Language Engineering Office Hour - Start ===

02  siebrand: Hello, Welcome to the office hour of the Wikimedia Language Engineering Team.

02  siebrand: My name is Siebrand Mazeland and I am Product Manager Language Engineering at the Wikimedia Foundation.

03  siebrand: The other members of our team present today are:

03  siebrand: Niklas Laxstr?m / Nikerabbit / Developer

03  siebrand: Pau Giner / pginer / Interaction Designer

03  siebrand: Kartik Mistry / kart_ / Developer

03  siebrand: A few team members are absent: Alolita, Amir, Runa, Santhosh

03  siebrand: Our last office hour was held on May 8 2013. The logs are at:

03  siebrand: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours/Office_hours_2013-05-08

03  siebrand: Today I expect we will mainly talk about the Universal Language Selector.

04  siebrand: We have begun making this available in all Wikimedia wikis.

04  siebrand: After that we would be happy to answer any questions.

04  siebrand: If you'd like to send in your questions before the Q&A, please send them to me as a private message.

04  siebrand: We would also like to know who came here because of the invitations we sent in the differnet mailing lists.

04  siebrand: Please say something now if you're paying attention :).

04  siebrand: o_O

04  bawolff: !

05       marja is watching because of a message on an IRC channel

05  Elfix: ?

05 marktraceur waits for siebrand to start

05    siebrand is waiting for the interrobang to test unicode support in IRC clients...

05  bawolff: I showed up due to siebrand's note on #mediawiki , not due to mailing list post....

05  siebrand: Two days ago we replaced the MediaWiki extensions Narayam and WebFonts with ULS on

05 marktraceur showed up because he's always in -office

05  siebrand: 84 wikis where either of them was available.

06  siebrand: Given the current feedback, it seems this has not caused much confusion.

06  siebrand: There are 4 rounds of deployment that will follow.

06  siebrand: Next Tuesday, in phase 2 ULS will be made available on Wikipedias 11-20 by size.

07  siebrand: 96 people in channel, ~10% active.

07  siebrand: Languages involved are:

07  siebrand: Portuguese (pt), Chinese (zh), Vietnamese (vi), Ukrainian (uk), Catalan (ca), Waray-Waray (war), Norwegian (Bokm?l) (no), Cebuano (ceb), Finnish (fi), Persian (fa)

07 >> _sj_ [~sj@wikipedia/sj] has quit [Quit: _sj_]

08  siebrand: With this second phase, we are mainly adding volume (in page views) to the deployment of ULS

08  siebrand: We are also adding it to wikis where no similar language tools have been made available before, to see if it causes confusion

08  siebrand: or if any other usability issues may surface.

09  siebrand: In phase 3, in two weeks, we will make ULS available in all Wikimedia wikis without language versions (Wikispecies, special purpose wikis, etc.).

09  siebrand: In 3 weeks (phase 4) we plan to make it avaiablel on English language Wikipedia

09  siebrand: The week after that, all other wikis will get ULS (phase 5)

09  siebrand: We have created some pages with information for users.

09    Nemo_bis wonders if Beria_ is the only pt user present, and qgil only ca

10  siebrand: Announcement: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Announcement_Universal_Language_Selector

10  siebrand: Feature description: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Universal_Language_Selector

10  siebrand: FAQ: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Universal_Language_Selector/FAQ

10  siebrand: The above pages can be translated on-wiki.

10  siebrand: It may be helpful if you translate one or more pages and point your local community to it.

11  siebrand: Are there any questions or experiences to be shared?

13  siebrand: Okay. No questions or comments can mean many things...

14  siebrand: Anyway, we're here for another 45 minutes, so if you're reading docs, asking your question later is fine, too.

14  chrismcmahonbrb: have you encountered any performance issues with ULS, for example with caching?

14  analphabet is also paying attention btw :P

14       ori-l dittos

14   YuviPanda dittos

14         kart_ : Translating Feature description and FAQs will be very helpful. Noted. Thanks!

14  YuviPanda: siebrand: are you using EventLogging with ULS?

15  YuviPanda: (or planning on, at least)

15  Nikerabbit: YuviPanda: yes we are planning to

15  siebrand: chrismcmahonbrb: ULS is all JavaScript. A feature like using accept language to set a user's UI language is not yet in use on Wikimedia wikis.

15  siebrand: We are looking into making that possible, but there is no timeline for it yet.

16  bawolff: Can't that be done in js?

16  Nikerabbit: nope

16  bawolff: As in doesn't commons have a script that does that in js?

16  Nikerabbit: most of the pages are still generated server side, inclusing the messages

16  siebrand: YuviPanda: We are planing to add event logging. IN the sprint that we are currently in (started y'day, for two weeks), we will identify the actions we want to log, and the schema that it needs.

16  siebrand: In the sprint after, we will implement the logging.

17  Nemo_bis: bawolff: yes, Commons and now Wikidata stick uselang= to every link

18  YuviPanda: siebrand: nice. Will ping you to see your schemas in a couple  of weeks then :)

18  siebrand: ULS is not aware of the uselang parameter, and implements setlang, which is sticky.

18  Nikerabbit: YuviPanda: I can ping you too once we have something

18  YuviPanda: siebrand: Nikerabbit any possibility of getting some time for the issues for Android export on the Translate extension?

18  YuviPanda: Nikerabbit: thanks!

18  siebrand: (i.e. it really changes the user preference for the UI language of a logged in user).

19  siebrand: On WIkimedia wikis, setlang does nothing for anonymous users.

20  siebrand: Does that clarify things on the caching side?

20  bawolff: So is the issue with using accept-language, that the uls code only runs at javascript side, by that time the language for current page is already set, and in order to change it based on accept-lang it would have to reload the page?

21  Nikerabbit: yep

21  Nikerabbit: and somehow initiate a session or other way to bypass the usual cache

21  bawolff: It could still use accept-lang to present a "Are you sure you don't want to change to language X"?

22  siebrand: Wikimedia does not want to encourage anonymous users to change UI language for now.

22  Nikerabbit: because of caching, you know

23  Nikerabbit: to clarify: the accept-lang header is processed in PHP side in ULS

23  bawolff: but you could get it in js using ajax if you wanted

23  Nikerabbit: we could pass the headers to JS but it wouldn't help us at all in the current situation

24  siebrand: In the future, we may be more aggressive in asking logged in users to change their UI language on wikis with content in multiple languages (like Wikimedia Commons or Meta-Wiki).

24  siebrand: No discussions or decisions about that yet, though.

25  wizardist: what do you mean by "aggressive"? :)

25  siebrand: Eventually, *I* hope we can do something proper with Accept-Language for all users, but there are also people that disagree with me on that.

25  ori-l: wizardist: <blink>, <marquee>, etc.

25  wizardist: :)

25  siebrand: aggressive as in actually pointing out that UI language can be changed, instead of making it possible with an easily discoverable control.

25  Nemo_bis: wizardist: or like the language suggest Commons has for anons, I guess

26  chrismcmahonbrb: to what extent (if any) is ULS aware of the user's location?  I was noticing that some of the language choices displayed involve what seems like quasi-random ordering of likely language choices

27  Nikerabbit: YuviPanda: re android file format support: unless you convince Siebrand to reserve more time, I can work on it during the time reserved for translatewiki.net support and misc. bug fixing or on my free time

27  siebrand: ULS make a geo location service call and "knows" form which country you are.

27  Nikerabbit: so yes, but can't give you exact dates now

27  siebrand: It uses that data to list languages you are likely to be proficient in.

27  siebrand: (together with previously used languages and your accept language(s))

28  chrismcmahon: siebrand: that feature made automating tests a bit tricky.  tests that passed in the US failed in Croatia :-) .  that is very fancy.

28   YuviPanda wonders if there is some way to convince siebrand to set aside some time for the android export format

28  siebrand: chrismcmahon: Thank you :)

28  bawolff: YuviPanda: Kidnapping is often effective

28  siebrand: YuviPanda: have you checked if you can fix it in the FFS yourself?

29  siebrand: YuviPanda: We encourage translatewiki.net supported product partner to get involved in the support of the FFS to lighten load of twn staff!

29  Nemo_bis: bawolff: I think he already tried that

29  YuviPanda: siebrand: I looked into it and think it'll take me at least a few days to get myself familiar enough with it to contribute

30  YuviPanda: which I will do if we run into more 'breaking' issues (we have so far found workarounds for most things)

30  ori-l: (what's 'FFS'?)

30    siebrand raises an eyebrow.

30  siebrand: ori-l: A File Format Support PHP class.

30  YuviPanda: siebrand: over which part of the sentence?

30  ori-l: ah

30  YuviPanda: ori-l: the android file format can be generously called... ill-designed.

31  Nikerabbit: +1 what Yuvi said

31  siebrand: YuviPanda: Over you, Indian educated bachelor, needing multiple days before being able to contribute to a simple input/output parser for an i18n file format.

31   YuviPanda raises eyebrows. both of them

31  YuviPanda: :P

31    siebrand grins evilly.

32  Nikerabbit: soon would be a good time to run

32  siebrand: Anyway, we seems to have progressed into the Q&A stage.

32  siebrand: I'm not aware of any open questions at this time.

33  siebrand: Any new ones related to Langauge Engineering?

33  YuviPanda: siebrand: part of it is also that I've not touched any PHP in a fair bit

33  siebrand: (including spelling correction by the LangEng product manager)

33  YuviPanda: siebrand: status of the translatewiki iOS app? found time to test it?

33  siebrand: YuviPanda: Ah, yes.

33  siebrand: YuviPanda: I've tested it a few weeks ago, but not the latest version.

34  siebrand: YuviPanda: For some reason there was more to be done than I could do, so I had to make choices.

34  YuviPanda: nice. is it going to be released branded as an 'official' translatewiki.net project?

34   YuviPanda lowers eyebrows

35  siebrand: YuviPanda: But I'm very happy with what Or and Tomer have accomplished.

35  siebrand: YuviPanda: Possibly.

35  YuviPanda: brion gave Or a bunch of reviews today, I think

35  siebrand: As you know, translatewiki.net is "just" a community. There is no formal entity behind it.

35  YuviPanda: siebrand: yeah, it's good

35  YuviPanda: heh, true.

35  siebrand: i have a developer account for iOS apps, but that didn't work for the app.

35  siebrand: Recently, Apple has added "app transfer" features.

36  siebrand: That may make it possible to move the app from Or's account to mine once it is stable.

36  YuviPanda: oh yes, very recently

36  YuviPanda: that'll be nice

36  siebrand: The nice thing about the app is that it should work with any Translate installation.

36  siebrand: I haven't tested that yet, though (not sure if that feature is in)

37  YuviPanda: oh point to any api url? nice!

37  siebrand: Yes, that's the idea...

37  YuviPanda: sweet

38  siebrand: My thought is that twn is the default and an advanced setting allows changing the URL to the API, which would also make it possible to translate and review for Meta-Wiki, mediawiki.org, ...

39  YuviPanda: nice

39  YuviPanda: but meta texts would be large

39  siebrand: yes, that's a usability issue that has yet to be explored and resolved, as far as I know.

39  wizardist: as for a non-iOS user, how much does mobile app user experience differ from the new Translate UI?

39  siebrand: A lot.

39  wizardist: (screens maybe?)

40  siebrand: Best reply to Or's email on mediawiki-i18n: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/mediawiki-i18n/2013-June/000706.html

40  YuviPanda: (there is also an android project on the way as part of GSoC, from the same dev)

40  Nikerabbit: does the app allow account creation or just login to existing account?

41  wizardist: siebrand: thx

41  YuviPanda: Nikerabbit: there is no account creation api in mw yet

41  YuviPanda: so i don't think it can

41  YuviPanda: Nikerabbit: there's one that brion wrote, but it's in purgatory

41  Nikerabbit: YuviPanda: oh right, I forgot that MediaWiki ...

41  siebrand: See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Orsagi/GSoC_2013_proposal for Or Sagi's "Android app for MediaWiki translation"

42  YuviPanda: Nikerabbit: major contenttion point being how to handle captchas, IIRC

42  Nikerabbit: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Account_creation hmm

42  Nikerabbit: that page does not mention captcha at all

43  YuviPanda: Nikerabbit: so, fun part is that that got merged but it doesn't actually work

43  siebrand: Let's try to not get too technical in this office hours :)

43  YuviPanda: at lest on wikimedia wikis

43  siebrand: More questions?

43  Nikerabbit: YuviPanda: yeah and I am in the process of creating my own account creation api (sandbox) for twn

43  YuviPanda: yes, siebrand, we understand you are not a developer :)

43    siebrand smiles.

43  YuviPanda: Nikerabbit: oh?! you should look at the patch brion has too

44  Nemo_bis: Nikerabbit: there's something on talk though

44  Nemo_bis: (by brion, indeed)

45  YuviPanda: Nemo_bis: hmm, I can't find brion's patchset.

45  YuviPanda: Nemo_bis: he's on the way to office, will ask him when he gets here

46  Nemo_bis: YuviPanda: worth linking from the talk I guess

46  YuviPanda: yeah, will do Nemo_bis when i find it

47  YuviPanda: end of office hours, I guess?

48  ori-l: congrats to the language engineering team for ULS!

48  Nikerabbit: thanks

48  bawolff: YuviPanda: No, the fun part was it got merged, and didn't even work with wikis without a captcha if i recall :P

48  YuviPanda: +1

48  Nikerabbit: it's been a (relatively) long ride

48  YuviPanda: bawolff: the current account creation stuff?

48  YuviPanda: bawolff: yeah, it got merged but doesn't actually work.

49  YuviPanda: definitely doesn't work if your wiki needs captchas, unsure otherwise

49  YuviPanda: bawolff: brion's patch added proper support, etc. he got bored of it, IIRC

49  bawolff: I fixed a bunch of the really major issues

49  siebrand: Okay, that ends the office hours.

49  siebrand: Thanks everyone for your participation.

49  siebrand: Our next Office hour will be on July 10, 2013

50  siebrand: === Wikimedia Language Engineering Office Hour - End ===