IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-08-26

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> we have the Wikidata office hour starting now and going for about sixty minutes

01 PM <jem-> :)

01 PM → yurik joined (~Yurik@mediawiki/Yurik)

01 PM <hoo> Denny_WMDE: Being all official and _WMDE now? :D

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> just to check, is anyone here for the office hour, or will Adam_WMDE and I just retreat silently and claim that our communication work is so good that no one had any questions?

01 PM — hoo didn't use his _WMDE in quite a while

02 PM → Hprmedina joined (~Hprmedina@wikipedia/Hprmedina)

02 PM — jem- is here and has two questions/comments

02 PM <Denny_WMDE> perfect

02 PM — ainali is here to listen

02 PM <Denny_WMDE> welcome

03 PM <Denny_WMDE> like last time, we would start with a very rough overview of what happened since the last time

03 PM <Denny_WMDE> of what is expected to happen in the near future

03 PM <Denny_WMDE> and then we will take questions

03 PM <Denny_WMDE> if it gets hectic, Adam_WMDE will keep track of the questions

03 PM <jem-> Perfect

03 PM <jerome_> good

03 PM <YairRand> excellent

03 PM <Denny_WMDE> and I will answer them as he tells me to

03 PM <Denny_WMDE> if it remains unhectic, we can be less formal

04 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok, so let the fun begin

04 PM <Adam_WMDE> :D

04 PM → GerardM joined (~chatzilla@h242236.upc-h.chello.nl)

04 PM <Denny_WMDE> since last time we deployed Wikidata language links to all Wikipedias

04 PM <Denny_WMDE> due to that, more than 240 Million language links have been removed from the Wikipedias

05 PM <Denny_WMDE> ( I find that number staggering, so I keep repeating it )

05 PM ⇐ Steinsplitter quit (~Thunderbi@wikimedia/Steinsplitter) Excess Flood

05 PM <Denny_WMDE> we also have now the possibility to add statements with a number of datatypes

05 PM <Denny_WMDE> like coordinates and time

05 PM <Denny_WMDE> and they are heavily used

05 PM <Denny_WMDE> all Wikipedias have access to that data

06 PM <Denny_WMDE> and since a few weeks, also Wikivoyage was welcomed as the second sister project to have their language links be provided by Wikidata

06 PM <Denny_WMDE> today, if everything goes well, Wikivoyage will also get access to the data

06 PM → Steinsplitter joined (~Thunderbi@wikimedia/Steinsplitter)

06 PM <Denny_WMDE> the URL datatype was planned for today as well, but alas, had to be moved by two weeks as it is not sufficiently tested yet

07 PM <Denny_WMDE> we are currently preparing for further datatypes and for more sister projects

07 PM <YairRand> which datatype is most likely to be available after URL?

08 PM <Denny_WMDE> the big features to come are queries to the knowledge base, arbitrary access from the client to any data item (so you can also get your bibliographic metadata for a reference from Wikidata), and the ability to change the order of stuff on a Wikidata page

08 PM → JohnLewis joined (JohnLewis@wikimedia/John-F-Lewis)

08 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: either number or monolingual text

08 PM <YairRand> great :)

08 PM <Denny_WMDE> OK, this overview was supershort and I skipped like 90% of what we did

09 PM <Denny_WMDE> but I hope it is enough to get you started and get a few questions out :)

09 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: I missed what you said. Mind mesaging it my quickly? :)

09 PM <JohnLewis> *me

10 PM <YairRand> I don't understand why changing the order is useful. is the order itself going to be usable as data?

10 PM <Denny_WMDE> JohnLewis: Adam_WMDE will do that for me, my client is not good at this stuff

10 PM <Adam_WMDE> JohnLewis: >> everything so far >> http://pastebin.com/Vk2g2wun

10 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: Ok.

10 PM <JohnLewis> Adam_WMDE: Thanks :p

10 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: there are two reasons for why the order is useful

11 PM <Denny_WMDE> 1. presentation. people expect that some statements are higher than others, or that external identifiers are grouped, or whatever

12 PM <Denny_WMDE> (I agree that this does not sound terribly important, but I think it might ease the entrance to our project for newcomers if the first statement for their favourite pop start is not the ISNI number :) )

12 PM <YairRand> I would think that presentation would be handled by setting general rules about which properties are more important than other properties. is this how it's going to be handled?

12 PM <Denny_WMDE> 2. ranks. Our current UI design for ranks assume that statements ranked "preferred" or "deprecated" are grouped together

13 PM <Denny_WMDE> this makes ordering a prerequisite for ranking

13 PM <Denny_WMDE> re follow up question: no, that's not how it is planned. but rather on any items the editors can decide how to order the statements

14 PM <YairRand> these changes will have their own diffs?

14 PM <Denny_WMDE> it might be that a property should be high (date of discovery) for one item (an asteroid) and not so high for another (elements).

14 PM <Denny_WMDE> yes

14 PM → Darkdadaah joined (~dak@wiktionary/Darkdadaah)

15 PM <Denny_WMDE> Any further questions?

15 PM <YairRand> I don't suppose ordering could be used to represent data itself, ie have a party list shown in order without extra properties to say which items come first?

16 PM → Ziko joined (4da42041@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.164.32.65)

16 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: sorry, I fail to understand

16 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: you had also questions?

17 PM <jem-> Yes

17 PM <jem-> But I'm waiting my turn :)

17 PM <Denny_WMDE> oh, anyone giving turns? :)

18 PM <Adam_WMDE> jem-: I would send your question now so we have time to think about it while YairRand tried to explain the possibility of the lists mentioned above!

18 PM — jem- gives a turn to himself and his chair

18 PM <jem-> Ok then

19 PM <jem-> The first question is about propagation of the watchlist changes to the Wikipedias et al.

20 PM <jem-> I found myself having to remove the changes marked as external because most of them belong to new pages being linked

20 PM <YairRand> Denny_WMDE: a while back I proposed having an "ordered list" data type to represent data where the order is important data itself: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2013/08#Ordered_lists . If we're going to have a system set up where we can specifically order data anyway, could we use that to achieve the same thing?

21 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: ah. I would say "rather not".

21 PM <jem-> I would like that those changes were separated, at least, between "linked pages changes" and "properties or descriptions changes"

21 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: I am pinging aude, she might know more about that

22 PM <jem-> Or... that that were possible at Wikidata with some way to connect to the Wikipedia watchlist

22 PM <Denny_WMDE> as far as i understand, as of this week, these changes will be marked with a "D" so that you can filter them further

22 PM <jem-> Ok, thanks

22 PM <Denny_WMDE> but your questions goes further

22 PM <Denny_WMDE> and we currently do not plan to have them further filtered by the type of changes

23 PM <Denny_WMDE> but if a volunteer picks that up, we will be happy to review and merge it

23 PM <aude> it's probably a bit involved to implement that

23 PM <aude> if you want to make a bug, then we can keep it in mind

23 PM <Denny_WMDE> my hope is that the improved summaries should allow you to quicker sort them out

23 PM <Denny_WMDE> these also should go life today

23 PM <Adam_WMDE> *live

24 PM <jem-> Good

24 PM <Denny_WMDE> thanks, Adam_WMDE

24 PM <jem-> That could help also, yes, if those summaries are visible from the Wikipedias

24 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: basically, I think an ordered list would still be a data type of its own

24 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: and should not be implemented through the ordering of statements

24 PM <aude> jem-: right now we batch edits if a bunch occur in a short time

25 PM <aude> so it shows as "3 changes..."

25 PM <aude> this is because for each wikidata change, the wikipedia page needs to be parse which is "expensive"

25 PM <aude> takes a while, depending on size of the page

25 PM <YairRand> Denny_WMDE: Is a ordered list data type planned?

26 PM → Logan_ joined (~Logan@ubuntu/member/logan)

26 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: currently not, but we only have the next five datatypes planned

26 PM <jem-> I understand

26 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: after that, it's open

26 PM <Adam_WMDE> jem-: A few more details on the summaries, the improvements include the details of the changes included in the autosummary as well as the ability for bots to specific custom summaries when editing

26 PM <YairRand> I see

28 PM <jem-> Adam_WMDE: That's good, but also, if summaries can be customized, they won't help to know what's being changed

28 PM <Adam_WMDE> jem-: when custom summaries are added the auto comment (with the details) remains

28 PM <legoktm> it would be nice if the autosummary will always be in the front, and bots can append to it

28 PM <legoktm> oh, yay :D

28 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: that is true, that's where aude's comment comes in regarding the need to parse the changes and its costlyness

28 PM <Adam_WMDE> (:

29 PM ⇐ Guest58773 quit (~manybubbl@wikimedia/NEverett-WMF) Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0

29 PM <YairRand> legoktm: +1

29 PM → manybubbles joined (~manybubbl@wikimedia/NEverett-WMF)

29 PM <jem-> Ok :)

29 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: if the user states something then this needs to be taken into account and must not be thrown away

29 PM <legoktm> agreed

29 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: the autosummary can be recreated, but the user's comment can not

30 PM <Denny_WMDE> and the summary line, alas, is restricted in it's length

30 PM <Denny_WMDE> so we have to work within these restrictions

31 PM <jem-> Ok, then I'll keep watching for that and open a bug if still necessary

31 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: yes, thanks :)

31 PM <jem-> :)

31 PM <jem-> Second question then?

31 PM <Adam_WMDE> fire away!

32 PM <jem-> Good :) This is a more general one

32 PM <jem-> It's about categories

32 PM <Denny_WMDE> pesky little categories

32 PM <jem-> Yes :)

33 PM <jem-> I think there is some thinking going on about Wikidata managing or helping to manage categories in the projects

33 PM <jem-> That would be very necessary in my opinion

33 PM awjr_away → awjr

34 PM <jem-> I'd like to know just what's in the mind of the developers, or maybe the community, about that

34 PM <Denny_WMDE> to be honest, I am not aware of these discussions. My personal opinion is that each project is autonomous in this regard. With Lua it is actually possible to delegate the handling of the categories completely to Wikidata

34 PM <Denny_WMDE> so a project, if it wanted, could do that - but no project has to

35 PM <Denny_WMDE> I am not sure if it is a good idea or not. I never was sure about the roles of categories in the projects to begin with

35 PM <Denny_WMDE> are they widely used by readers? how much does the improvement of the category system benefit readers?

36 PM ⇐ Steinsplitter quit (~Thunderbi@wikimedia/Steinsplitter) Quit: Ping timeout: 276 seconds

36 PM <Denny_WMDE> so, in short, I think the current setup is flexible enough to handle both possibilities

36 PM <jem-> That's the point... a category helps if it can create a useful list or articles, but maybe phase 3 could also do that?

36 PM <Denny_WMDE> and also hybrids between both

36 PM <Ziko> using wikidata for categories sounds extremely interesting. on the other hand, by intuition i ask myself whether the actual category systems aren't to different from each other. then again, the same was told about the interwiki links, but i think this is different. and as denny says, the categories seem to be something more internal for the editors (=less important)

37 PM <abian> Sorry, I think categories are useful mostly for maintenance and running bots

37 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: in which case, they probably should remain locally controlled

37 PM <Denny_WMDE> I think this is a discussion internal to each project

38 PM <Denny_WMDE> and even trying to centralize it on Wikidata might lead to pain

38 PM <GerardM> currently Wikidata looks awful and it is hard to get an impression of the available data.. Why not have something like reasonator as a visualisation and the current stuff as the edit page ?

38 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: but yes, if it is about "useful lists of articles", I think our query system will be helpful with that

38 PM <jem-> Ok

38 PM <Nikerabbit> can anybody update the topic to say it's wikidata office hour?

39 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: and this could be done in parallel and complementary to the local category system

39 PM legoktm set the topic: Wikidata office hours - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours

39 PM <jem-> So there is nothing scheduled apart from that and the use of Lua for dynamic categories based on property values, right?

39 PM <Denny_WMDE> thanks Nikerabbit, legoktm

39 PM <legoktm> np

39 PM → Steinsplitter joined (~Thunderbi@wikimedia/Steinsplitter)

39 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: reasonator embodies a lot of domain knowledge

40 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: which we have no way to save, edit, and maintain collaboratively

40 PM <Denny_WMDE> as of now

40 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: this means, that Wikidata will continue to have a rather barebones look for a while

40 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: at the same time we will have more and more opportunity to learn how others are using and displaying wikidata

41 PM <YairRand> I think it would be interesting to see categories being generated from wikidata via lua. someone could have "if thisitem instance_of balloon and color = purple and date_popped = 1948 then return '[[category:purple balloons popped in 1948]] end" in {infobox balloon} and so on

41 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: and in a few months, years, we might make steps towards making Wikidata prettier

41 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: but that's no priority as of now

41 PM <GerardM> the objective of having a native visual experience is to get more contributors

41 PM <GerardM> is that not a priority ?

42 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: no, besides the query function and lua for dynamic categories, there is nothing in the pipeline right now

42 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: if you have ideas, feel free to share them

42 PM → jvandavier joined (~jvandavie@wikimedia/jvandavier)

42 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: yes, that should be possible currently

42 PM <jem-> Ok

43 PM <Ziko> question: what will wikidata mean for wikimedia commons in future? (if at all)

43 PM <jem-> I don't have any concrete ideas for the moment, I just wanted to delimitate the exact problems we're going to face, first :)

43 PM <Denny_WMDE> GerardM: it is a priority, but a lower one than many other things currently, like supporting more data types, more sister projects, queries, etc.

43 PM <legoktm> Ziko: have you seen the commons proposal?

43 PM <legoktm> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikidata_for_media_info

44 PM <jem-> But thanks, your answer is useful enough for the moment, Denny_WMDE

44 PM <Ziko> ah thanks

44 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: what legoktm says. We had also plenty of discussions during Wikimania for that. I think the plans should unfold in 2014, if all goes well

44 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: glad to be helpful :)

44 PM <jem-> :)

45 PM <jem-> Maybe in future office hours I can give some concrete ideas

45 PM <YairRand> I find it interesting that many on-wikidata discussions on topics like commons and such tend to gravitate toward the "wikidata must gobble up everything nearby" position :)

45 PM <jem-> (... hoping there will be future office hours)

45 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: or send emails or bug reports. Office hours are often far apart, because they are not so terribly frequented

45 PM <Denny_WMDE> jem-: I do assume they will continue

45 PM <Ziko> about categories: why is this in wikidata? http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8437452

45 PM <jem-> I know, I know :)

45 PM <Denny_WMDE> (jem-: but I am in no position to promise that)

46 PM <YairRand> Ziko: better than having interwikis set up the old way?

46 PM edsanders → edsanders|away

46 PM <jem-> I admit I'm often too lazy and office hours are a good chance for the lazies :)

46 PM <Adam_WMDE> Ziko: It exists as it meets the current notability requirements :) http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/wWD:N

46 PM <Denny_WMDE> YairRand: yes, I find that interesting too, that a lot of discussions go that way. I regard it often as my job to say "no" or "not for now" :)

46 PM <Adam_WMDE> *http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:N

47 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: as Adam_WMDE says

47 PM <Ziko> it's a category on english wikipedia

47 PM <abian> I have a question related to propierties...

48 PM <abian> Could we limit the properties that can be added to an item, despite not having P107 any more?

48 PM  → Ocastro joined  

48 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: that meets WD:N

48 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: even with P107 it was not really possible

48 PM → quiddity joined (~quiddity@wikipedia/quiddity)

48 PM <Adam_WMDE> Ziko: there are many such items, http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q13356539, http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q13258694 etc.

49 PM <abian> And could we use AbuseFilter for making this possible?

49 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: there were external bots analyzing the data and creating reports if they violated certain constraints

49 PM <Ziko> denny:wemde: so it fulfills some structural needs and "it can be described using serious and publicly available references"

49 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: this is also possible without P107, obviously

49 PM gwicke → gwicke_away

49 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: no, number 1: It contains at least one valid sitelink to a Wikipedia or Wikivoyage page.

49 PM <legoktm> abian: theoretically we could use the AF to stop people from adding properties, but I don't think people would agree that's a good thing.

50 PM <abian> AF are too unattended

50 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok folks, 10 more minutes

50 PM <abian> Could be possible to create a group of users who take care of them?

50 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Category:Constraint_violation_reports - Contraint violation reports :)

50 PM <Denny_WMDE> did I miss any questions?

50 PM <Ziko> ok i see. but it does not seem to make much sence to me to have a couple of category-items here and not a systematic approach

51 PM <Denny_WMDE> abian: see JohnLewis comment and link

51 PM <Adam_WMDE> Denny_WMDE: you've got all of the ones I have spotted :)

51 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: there is a systematic approach: have *all* category items :)

51 PM <abian> Ok, thanks :)

51 PM  → eikes and PPena joined  

51 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ziko: simple, but definitively systematic

52 PM <Ziko> right, denny_wmde :-)

52 PM <legoktm> Denny_WMDE: i mentioned this on the paper cuts page, but what do you think of having a section on an item/property where we can add and display any arbitrary wikitext? this would be similar to the Summary concept in LQT

52 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: not a fan of this idea

52 PM <YairRand> legoktm: for content or for maintenance?

53 PM <legoktm> well the main rationale is that we can tag items with {{delete}} directly

53 PM <legoktm> YairRand: maintenance mainly

53 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: this section would have to live somewhere between the label-description and the wikipedia article

53 PM <Denny_WMDE> legoktm: aah

53 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok, for maintenance, this can be achieved by using the talk page

53 PM <legoktm> but now you have to delete the talk page too

53 PM <Denny_WMDE> enwp often has maintenance tags on the talk page

54 PM <•Ironholds> er. not really.

54 PM <Denny_WMDE> no?

54 PM <•Ironholds> I mean, sometimes, but it's pretty uncommon.

54 PM <Adam_WMDE> Denny_WMDE: not maint tags :)

54 PM <legoktm> things on the talk page are usually just wikiproject tags

54 PM <•Ironholds> or "this needs an image", and I think we stopped using that.

54 PM <•Ironholds> (or: use it very rarely)

55 PM <Denny_WMDE> Ironholds: but stuff like "this belongs to Wikiproject: Afrikaans Shakespeare translators"

55 PM <Denny_WMDE> and ratings of importance and quality

55 PM <•Ironholds> Denny_WMDE: yeah, metadata

55 PM <YairRand> using the talk page doesn't work all that well, imo. it's too far out the way.

55 PM <•Ironholds> indeed

55 PM <•Ironholds> also it introduces some ambiguity

55 PM InezK_away → InezK

56 PM <•Ironholds> Denny_WMDE: my suggestion would be; you're talking about how to store metadata. In wikidata.

56 PM <•Ironholds> which is a wiki, for data ;p.

56 PM <Denny_WMDE> :) indeed, a possibility would be to use wikidata itself

56 PM <•Ironholds> da

56 PM <•Ironholds> there's probably a more elegant way of doing it than a "write what the heck you want here" box

57 PM <Denny_WMDE> "instance of: Item to be deleted"

57 PM <•Ironholds> but that's your domain

57 PM <legoktm> hm

57 PM gwicke_away → gwicke

57 PM <legoktm> that would also work

57 PM <Denny_WMDE> "merge me with: Q19393"

57 PM <YairRand> Ironholds: oooh. I'm in favor :)

57 PM <•Ironholds> YairRand: I claim zero credit

57 PM <•Ironholds> mostly because I put in zero work ;p

58 PM <Denny_WMDE> OK - any last questions?

58 PM <•Ironholds> I'm not qualified to decide if it's a workable solution, but I'm sure y'all will have fun with it either way.

58 PM <marktraceur> Wait! We have minutes left! Is Wikibase deployed on Commons naow?

58 PM <Denny_WMDE> marktraceur: no, not yet

58 PM <T13> @link [[d:Q19393]]

58 PM <wm-bot> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q19393

58 PM <marktraceur> Mmmkay

58 PM — marktraceur waits

58 PM <Denny_WMDE> Phase 1 for Commons is to be deployed as the next sister project

58 PM <Denny_WMDE> probably in September

58 PM <marktraceur> Fun times

59 PM <JohnLewis> Hm.

59 PM <Denny_WMDE> Phase 1 = language links

59 PM <JohnLewis> Denny_WMDE: Also; Does WMDE have any idea when Phase 3 will be ready for deployment on any project? (as in, it is planned such as First quater of 2014 etc?)

00 PM  → PPena_ joined  ⇐ jorm and PPena quit  •  jvandavier → jvd|standup  

00 PM <Denny_WMDE> JohnLewis: when it's ready :P

00 PM <JohnLewis> :p

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> i have that high on my personal prioritiy list

01 PM <YairRand> sounds like an accurate approximation :)

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> and some great strides have been done on that lately

01 PM <Adam_WMDE> And we hit the hour!

01 PM <JohnLewis> Adam_WMDE: We hit 61 minutes :p

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> but it will involve a bit of deployment changes and stuff like this

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> which will make it a bit more complicated

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> I hope for Q4 of 2013, still, though

01 PM <Denny_WMDE> but I make no promises

01 PM <JohnLewis> Ok.

02 PM ⇐ jerome_ quit (6dbe6107@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.190.97.7) Ping timeout: 250 seconds

02 PM <Denny_WMDE> ok. Since this is very likely my last office hour on this side of the office, I wanted to say: It was a great time, and thank you everyone being here and being on the project, and for your faith, and your hopes :) You are amazing. That's just a short thank you, a longer email will come when I actually will leave :)

02 PM → lizzard joined (~lizzard@173-228-80-237.dsl.static.sonic.net)

02 PM <Denny_WMDE> well then, time to close, Adam_WMDE ?

02 PM <Adam_WMDE> Indeed

03 PM <jem-> Thank you for all the work, Denny_WMDE, and extensive to the team :)

03 PM <Adam_WMDE> Thank you all for taking some time away for your busy lives to have a chat with us :)

03 PM <Adam_WMDE> The logs for this office hour will be available at http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Events#Past_IRC_office_hours shortly

04 PM <Adam_WMDE> And of course a bit thanks for Denny_WMDE ! :)

04 PM <Denny_WMDE> can someone put the topic of this room back?

05 PM •Ironholds set the topic: IRC office hours - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours