IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-11-02

Chat on VisualEditor
Saturday 2 November 2013
17:00 - 18:00 UTC

[16:53:55] <Philippe> morning quiddity, Keegan :)
[16:54:01] <Keegan> Hiya boss man
[16:54:24] * Philippe just can not wake up today. This is a bad sign for the day, I think.
[16:54:39] <James_F> Heya.
[16:54:41] * Keegan makes a loud noise
[16:54:47] * Philippe jumps. KEEGAN!
[16:54:52] <Philippe> Hey James_F, howzit? :)
[16:55:00] <Keegan> Hi James_F
[16:55:00] <Thryduulf> good <local time of day>
[16:55:41] <Philippe> Good $TIMEOFDAY, Thryduulf
[16:56:02] <James_F> Philippe: Surely {{tl|CURRENTTIMEOFDAY}}? :-)
[16:56:09] <Philippe> James_F: don't help.
[16:56:19] <Finnegan> James_F never helps, silly
[16:56:32] <Philippe> Fair point, Finnegan.
[16:57:04] <Philippe> Evidence does appear to be on your side there.
[16:57:06] * Philippe runs.
[16:57:20] * Elitre waves at boss(es)
[16:57:25] <Philippe> Hey Elitre :)
[16:57:42] <Thryduulf> .e wonders whether {{tl|CURRENTTIMEOFDAY}} would work at 00:00 UTC ;)
[16:57:51] <Philippe> lol@Thryduulf
[16:57:56] <Philippe> Yes, but it would be vague and indeterminate.
[16:58:09] <James_F> Psh.
[16:58:13] <James_F> Time of day is easy.
[16:58:21] * quiddity waves also, and goes back to making coffee and breakfast. x.x
[16:58:30] <James_F> [05:00 - 12:00) == Morning.
[16:58:33] <Philippe> and Maggie would remind us that there's a standard that we should do it another way.... :P
[16:58:43] <James_F> [12:00 - 18:00) == Afternoon.
[16:59:00] <James_F> [18:00 - 21:00) == Evening.
[16:59:08] <James_F> [21:00 - 05:00) == Night.
[16:59:10] <James_F> Simple.
[16:59:12] <Philippe> Really? til 18:00? I'd have said 17:00
[16:59:20] <James_F> Philippe: That's 'cos you're a slacker.
[16:59:22] <Thryduulf> I'd have said 05:00 was morning
[16:59:35] <Keegan> I didn't know 05:00 existed
[16:59:38] <James_F> Thryduulf: That's what I did say. :-)
[16:59:42] <James_F> Keegan: Then you haven't lived!
[16:59:43] <Philippe> Because I disagree with you, as a Wikimedian, I now feel obligated to disregard everything you say, and judge you as a person.
[16:59:49] * James_F grins.
[16:59:51] <Keegan> I'm okay with that
[17:00:00] <Thryduulf> james> hmm, good point
[17:00:08] <Thryduulf> .e puts his glasses on
[17:00:17] * James_F grins.
[17:00:23] <James_F> Glasses help.
[17:00:29] <Philippe> and with that Judge-y comment, shall we start?
[17:01:00] <Philippe> I welcome you to office hours with James_F, brought to you from the balmy climes of the American Southwest today.
[17:01:11] <Philippe> (James_F is sitting in my living room in Oklahoma, because he's just crazy like that).
[17:01:15] <James_F> (Hey.)
[17:01:34] <Keegan> Oklahoma, southwest?
[17:01:38] <Philippe> James, you wanna start by bringing us up to date on what's new, what's changing, and ... telling us you favorite iced beverage?  :)
[17:01:45] <James_F> Sure.
[17:01:54] <Thryduulf> .e thought Oklahoma was deep south?
[17:01:59] <James_F> So… last office hours we ran were a month ago.
[17:01:59] <Philippe> Nah. Too far west.
[17:02:22] <James_F> Since then, most of the progress with VisualEditor has been "under the surface", so there's not a huge amount to point to as "new".
[17:02:43] <James_F> We've made lots of improvements to how copy-and-paste will work, language support, and others.
[17:02:57] <James_F> But nothing I can really shout from the roof-tops about, yet.
[17:03:18] <Philippe> So you've been building on work already done and preparing for future work? Does this position us for, oh, say, future improvements to.... the toolbar? Maybe? Please? :)
[17:03:39] <James_F> There's lots going on that I can point to - the work to create a quick-add reference dialog, for example https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Design/Reference_Dialog
[17:03:54] <James_F> And yes, toolbar improvements have already started a little, and there's more to come.
[17:04:17] <James_F> Though that's not something I really want to just "decide" in WMF towers, but should be a proper conversation.
[17:04:27] <Keegan> How about switching to wikitext out of VisualEditor? How's that doing?
[17:04:32] <Philippe> How are you reconciling the difference in ref formats from wiki to wiki, as it relates to the quick-add dialogue?
[17:04:47] <Philippe> (Keegan first, then me)
[17:05:20] <Philippe> ((Btw, to all: please don't feel obligated to wait politely with your questions. It will mess with my head, nobody at the office does, why should you? Just should 'em out.))
[17:05:25] <James_F> Keegan: That is actually "done", just not released to any wiki right now yet. You can use it right now on https://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org - note that (a) that's not an SUL wiki, you'll need your own new log-in, and (b) that wiki has a different privacy policy.
[17:05:55] <Keegan> Good to hear. And that's one-way conversion only?
[17:05:56] <James_F> That's currently just one-way switching from VisualEditor into the wikitext editor without needing to save.
[17:05:58] <James_F> Yeah.
[17:06:08] <James_F> But we're also working on proper back-and-forth switching, in time.
[17:06:14] <Philippe> Ah, cool.
[17:06:14] * Keegan nods
[17:06:19] <Elitre> Is that going to be part of the Beta Features?
[17:06:41] <James_F> Elitre: No, that's core VisualEditor - available to everyone from Thursday.
[17:06:53] <Philippe> ( James_F, you wanna give a quick overview of what Beta Features is? Is Fabrice here? )
[17:06:55] <Elitre> I see :)
[17:07:05] <James_F> Sure.
[17:07:16] <James_F> See [[mw:Beta Features]] for more details.
[17:07:16] <Philippe> (I've tossed in a question to pre-empt my own question)
[17:07:28] <James_F> Broadly, it's an opt-in programme for testing out new features on the cluster.
[17:07:39] <James_F> It's not a part of VisualEditor, but we'll be using it.
[17:07:52] <James_F> Fabrice and the Multimedia team should get the credit. :-)
[17:07:55] <Thryduulf> what does "on the cluster" mean in this context?
[17:08:06] <Philippe> Cool. I like that. It means that we can get opinions on things before deploying them, thus preventing a <s>debacle</s> nightmare of epic proportions.  :)
[17:08:22] <James_F> Thryduulf: Wikipedia, Commons, Wikisource, wherever.
[17:08:33] <James_F> Thryduulf: All Wikimedia "production" wikis.
[17:08:36] <Philippe> So, "on the cluster", as opposed to "in private wikis"?
[17:08:38] <Thryduulf> ok, cheers
[17:08:47] <Keegan> ([[mw:About Beta Features]] has a little less text)
[17:09:03] <Philippe> He's corrected me to say: It's about production versus non-production. (in person)
[17:09:03] <James_F> To go back to Philippe's question, the reference dialog work is going to create a way for each wiki to specify the templates, up to a limit (probably 5-6, we'll see).
[17:09:15] <Philippe> oooooooooooooo
[17:09:17] <Philippe> nice.
[17:09:32] <James_F> So enwiki may choose {{tl|cite web}}, {{tl|cite book}}, {{tl|cite journal}}, {{tl|cite news}} and a couple of others.
[17:09:40] <James_F> Other wikis can pick their own.
[17:10:06] <James_F> The idea is to push users to good practice, not over-whelm them with options.
[17:10:27] <Thryduulf> seems sensible
[17:10:31] <Philippe> Well, that's positively un-wiki! :)
[17:10:51] <Philippe> Other questions, anyone? :)
[17:11:18] <James_F> For wikis that have VE as an opt-in rather than by default, VE itself will show up in Beta Features - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Beta_Features/General
[17:11:37] <Philippe> OK, well, then, I'm going to keep asking. I'm worried about the toolbar.... how do we keep people from aggressively using things like colors, when they're added to the toolbar?
[17:11:54] <James_F> For all wikis with VE, editors will additionally be able to opt-in to having formula editing - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Beta_Features/Formulae
[17:12:10] <James_F> Philippe: Good point.
[17:12:12] <Philippe> (see what happens when you all let me out of the office? I lose track of stuff and have to ask a dozen questions.)
[17:12:30] <James_F> When we're improving the toolbar, we need to make sure that we don't just "make things easy", but that we make the right things easy.
[17:12:41] <Thryduulf> what about support for adding rows/columns to tables?
[17:12:58] <Philippe> (queue: Thrydullf)
[17:13:09] <James_F> So for things like changing text colour, we're definitely not going to add that to the main toolbar (i.e., it won't be a button in the toolbar before you've opened up a menu).
[17:13:17] <Philippe> (sorry about the spelling there, Thryduulf)
[17:13:31] <James_F> However, I don't think it's right for VE to stop users from doing things, even if we think that they're often bad or there's possibility to abuse.
[17:13:44] <James_F> For example, you can insert a completely-inappropriate image in some places.
[17:13:59] <Thryduulf> np re spelling, not much call to spell words with "uu" when writing modern English
[17:14:06] <James_F> But that doesn't mean we're going to make adding media items something you have to jump through a hoop to get to do.
[17:14:29] <James_F> Another example is setting a link on an image.
[17:14:46] <James_F> That's something all users "can" do in wikitext, except most don't know how (or even that they can).
[17:14:57] <James_F> And per policy, you're not meant to do it to an image that isn't PD.
[17:15:17] <James_F> So we'll probably have that option on an "advanced" page of the media editing dialog, with some warning text about abuse.
[17:15:22] <James_F> But it will still be available.
[17:15:26] <Philippe> Next question: what about support for adding rows/columns to tables?
[17:15:29] <Philippe> (from Thryduulf )
[17:15:32] * James_F nods.
[17:15:47] <James_F> That's something we haven't yet started on.
[17:16:21] <James_F> Editing tables is mostly a "UX thing" - i.e., we've looked at a number of possibilities, but none of them are any good at giving users an obvious way to do it.
[17:16:36] <James_F> Word, OpenOffice, Google Docs, etc. all have different approaches, and all of them are bad.
[17:16:59] <James_F> Table editing is third in the design work queue, after reference insertion (currently on-going, per above) and the toolbar.
[17:17:19] <James_F> I don't really have a timeline I can give for when that will turn into tangible "I can now add a row", however. :-(
[17:17:41] <James_F> We might be able to trivially add an "insert NxM table" button, but I don't know if that would be very satisfying.
[17:17:43] <Philippe> You mentioned the design work queue... I'm curious, what else is in the immediate top of that queue? You gave us the top three. Are there a couple others after, so we know what to look forward to?
[17:17:50] <Elitre> Since VE is meant for new users, can/should we make it easier for them to change the way it "looks" (for example having different sets of icons they can choose from to build a "customized" toolbar, or giving the page a background color, and so on)?
[17:18:10] <Philippe> (Elitre next)
[17:18:12] <James_F> There's not really a formal 'queue', it's just the pressing priorities from the overall standpoint.
[17:18:14] <Thryduulf> ok cheers, I'll not get my hopes up for new rows as a christmas present from VE then
[17:18:24] <James_F> Happy to be argued around for other things to take their place instead. :-)
[17:18:30] <James_F> Thryduulf: Sorry. :-(
[17:18:41] <Philippe> Thryduulf: pretty hard to package a row/column and put a bow on it anyway
[17:19:04] <James_F> Elitre: So… I'd slightly disagree that VE is "for new users", though of course it's for them /as well/.
[17:19:35] <James_F> Elitre: There's a bug against the wikitext editor to let people change what buttons appear and where.
[17:19:47] * Keegan (just tried out the wikitext conversion. Worked like a charm, thanks)
[17:19:48] <James_F> It's been open for 7 years with no action or agreement that it's a good thing.
[17:19:49] <Thryduulf> philippe: if there is one thing I've learnt from being here since Christmas 2004 it's that if somethign is possible, some Wikimedian somewhere will figure out how
[17:20:01] <Philippe> Won't that have impact on my earlier question (making it too easy to do things that we probably don't want them doing as a first choice?)
[17:20:47] <James_F> I'm not sure that VisualEditor should let users change what the toolbar does and doesn't show, or the colours of the toolbar.
[17:20:54] <Philippe> Ah, got it
[17:21:08] <James_F> But it's possible right now with site-wide or user-specific CSS, if people really want.
[17:21:25] <James_F> I'd much rather they came and explained what changes they wanted and why, so we could consider them for all users, of course. :-)
[17:21:34] * Philippe goes to make VE purple. Because I can!
[17:21:42] <James_F> Eh.
[17:21:42] <Philippe> Other questions?
[17:21:42] <Steinsplitter>  :)
[17:21:43] <Keegan> Customization would also make it difficult to provide support, I would think. Standardization helps instruction
[17:21:44] * James_F sighs.
[17:21:50] <James_F> Keegan: Indeed.
[17:22:12] <Philippe> Keegan, yeah... "train to the norm, not the exception". First rule of training.
[17:22:32] <Philippe> OK, warning - if questions cease, I've invited Keegan to do a dramatic reading of the "National Enquirer". I understand he's been practicing.
[17:22:37] * James_F grins.
[17:22:40] <Thryduulf> I think one idea was for easily installable themes that came as a package, a bit like how Tumblr does Ithink
[17:23:03] <James_F> Thryduulf: That'd be a MediaWiki-level question, then.
[17:23:05] <Keegan> Aw man, I was going to do King Solomon's Mines
[17:23:07] <Elitre> How do you prioritize releasing new features versus fixing identified bugs? What sets the schedule for such updates?
[17:23:21] <James_F> Thryduulf: Each editor doesn't have their own installation/view, unlike Tumblr.
[17:23:21] <Philippe> (Thanks, Elitre, you've saved us all... again.)
[17:23:52] <James_F> So, at the most fundamental level, I set the schedule for updates.
[17:24:06] <James_F> I try to keep a balance between bugs and features, mostly focussing on bugs right now.
[17:24:20] <James_F> Some of the bugs and features alike have very deep-rooted issues.
[17:24:27] <Thryduulf> james: yes, a better comparison would have been skins but I understand your point
[17:24:34] <Philippe> (i had a fun experience the oth4r night, watching James_F go through bugs... "done it. Done. done it a LONG time ago..."
[17:24:44] <James_F> For example, that issues that create the pawns or snowmen.
[17:25:11] <James_F> These are very complicated issues with how text is entered into VisualEditor.
[17:25:18] <Philippe> Yeah, what about that? Although festive and winter-like....
[17:25:24] <James_F> We've been doing a lot of work over the past two months to try to avoid it.
[17:25:36] <James_F> Obviously, every time you see a pawn or a snowman, something has gone wrong.
[17:25:44] <Thryduulf> some of the pawn bugs are quite fun to determine how to actually reproduce them
[17:25:51] <James_F> The problem is, though the symptom may be the same, very often the issues are completely different.
[17:26:03] <Philippe> I believe i"ll capture that one for bugzilla: "Obviously, every time you see a pawn or a snowman, something has gone wrong."
[17:26:24] <James_F> We've been doing a very major re-write of this code to try to go through with a fine-toothed comb where the issues lie.
[17:26:34] <James_F> But this is likely to replace most of the issues with some new, exciting issues.
[17:26:40] <James_F> So… we're no there yet, sadly.
[17:27:12] <Keegan> Oh, quick question: when you make an edit with VE and it adds " or spaces to references/formatting, that is Parsoid, not VE, correct?
[17:27:27] <James_F> Keegan: Yes, ish.
[17:27:29] <Philippe> So, little detail..... Where'd the "beta' label on the toolbar go?
[17:27:40] <James_F> In general, Parsoid "cleans up" wikitext when it is edited.
[17:27:41] <Keegan> -ish is good enough :)
[17:27:44] <Keegan> Right
[17:27:55] <James_F> However, VisualEditor shouldn't be making Parsoid think it's edited some of the page when it hasn't.
[17:28:20] <James_F> Long-term, we might want to do a wiki-wide clean-up of wikitext to fix a lot of these issues.
[17:28:25] <James_F> Things that "work" but are wrong.
[17:28:47] <Keegan> All right
[17:28:47] <James_F> E.g. "| rowspan= 2".
[17:29:00] <Steinsplitter> +1, good iddea
[17:29:00] <Philippe> OK, only outstanding question is the beta label for the toolbar. Unless I missed anything.
[17:29:02] <Keegan> Exactly, yes
[17:29:12] <James_F> But that's… a decision for another day, and something to discuss rather than just do for people.
[17:29:23] <James_F> Yeah, the beta label in the toolbar.
[17:29:42] <Thryduulf> are you keeping a list of syntax you've foudn that is wrong but works?
[17:29:55] <Elitre> (I just tried the switch to wikitext feature and it made me happily yell a few things I can't repeat here since I'm a lady.)
[17:29:57] <Philippe> (discuss, rather than do for people? That gives me all sorts of entree for "We're from the government, and we're here to help. Why are you running?"
[17:30:03] <Thryduulf> ending a table with |- \n }} is one I recall
[17:30:04] <James_F> Thryduulf: There's not enough paper on Earth to keep that list, but yeah.
[17:30:07] <Philippe> w00t, Elitre!
[17:30:29] <Philippe> luckily, we don't use paper, James_F. We've got a wiki. :)
[17:30:52] <James_F> The toolbar, wodged as a label for the help menu, wasn't a great place to put it - it was a confused placement, and we were hiding the help menu.
[17:31:09] <James_F> It was taking up quite a lot of room in the toolbar whilst at the same time making people not click on the help icon.
[17:31:11] <Philippe> (he's speaking of the beta label, in case you've lost track. As I had. And had to go look.)
[17:31:17] <Elitre> (The feature is great! but we don't get to track edits that began with VE, right?)
[17:31:41] <Philippe> Happy {{tl|TIMEOFDAY}} Risker. (better, James?)
[17:31:47] <Elitre> (how are we going to understand the people are still using VE once it arrives? :D )
[17:31:56] * Risker waves
[17:32:03] <Philippe> Good question, Elitre. Tracking of edits that start in VE and go to wikitext
[17:32:08] <James_F> So… we removed the beta label from the help menu. We could put it back in another place, if it was felt needed, though given that it was created before the beta welcome box, I'm not sure it's neeeded.
[17:32:24] <Keegan> Good question. Will it still be tagged in Recent Changes with VisualEditor?
[17:32:40] <James_F> Elitre: Yes, that's something we should do - there's a bug about it somewhere. Once you bail from VisualEditor into the wikitext editor, no tag is saved.
[17:32:58] <Keegan> Hm
[17:33:04] <Elitre> james_F, could this be done only locally, re-adding the Beta label to the toolbar? of course, not all the wikis might want it.
[17:33:05] <James_F> Which is arguably correct (it's been saved by someone with completely control of the wikitext directly), and in other ways confusing.
[17:33:07] <Philippe> We wanna be careful with that though - probably track them a separate way? Not lump them in with the whole, right?
[17:33:11] <Thryduulf> that should also happen when you have to go into wikitext to resolve an edit coflict
[17:33:21] <James_F> Thryduulf: I think it does already?
[17:33:54] <James_F> Elitre: The beta label could be re-added using local JS over-rides, but it would be very fragile and I think it'd be more useful to do it properly in VE than as a local hack.
[17:34:00] <James_F> Philippe: Yeah.
[17:34:08] <Elitre> ok, James, thank you.
[17:34:09] <Thryduulf> don't think it labelled by edit last night, but that was after about half a dozen edit conflicts
[17:34:45] <Philippe> So, another question, James.... local wikis have different formatting conventions (brackets around numbers, etc). Is there a plan to allow for VE customization to support that?
[17:34:57] <Thryduulf> VE is really not useful for editing fast-moving articles atm
[17:35:01] <James_F> Thryduulf: Yeah. So it's an existing issue, now made a little more acute, I guess.
[17:35:40] <Philippe> (Pause, as James convinces my dog that he does not have anything she wants)
[17:35:46] <James_F> Thryduulf: We have plans for proper real-time collaboration in VisualEditor which would help immensely with that, but yes.
[17:35:54] <Thryduulf> my point was that whatever solution is applied to labelling voluntary VE->Wikitext should also be applied to VE->Wikitext for editconflict resolution
[17:35:55] * James_F grins.
[17:36:01] <James_F> Thryduulf: Indeed.
[17:36:14] <James_F> Back to Philippe's question about formatting conventions.
[17:36:36] <James_F> Some of these are things that are done by humans, and will still need to be done by humans.
[17:37:05] <James_F> For example, if your wiki wants people to double-space after their sentences (and if so, why?!), VE won't do that for users much as the wikitext editor won't.
[17:37:36] <James_F> Others are going to be done by VisualEditor (well, actually, by Parsoid, but the effect's the same), and will need to be standardised.
[17:37:53] <Philippe> (ah, the single space/double space divide. One of the great dividing factors of the English speaking world. That one, and toMAYto/toMAHto.)
[17:38:05] <James_F> So "== Foo ==" vs. "==Foo=="; "* Foo" vs. "*Foo".
[17:38:28] <James_F> And those are going to be global standards, I think.
[17:38:41] <Philippe> James, that example you gave - that's one that Parsoid will handle, or humans willl have to be trained?
[17:38:50] <Philippe> == Foo == vs =Foo=, i mean.
[17:38:52] <Thryduulf> philippe: if you think that one is bad, look at the edit history of yogurt/yoghurt ;)
[17:38:56] <James_F> Much as with broken wikitext, we're not going to mass-change pages that hasn't been edited.
[17:39:09] <James_F> But if you add a new heading, it'll be in the standard style.
[17:39:22] <James_F> So over time, the wikitext corpus will drift towards a single standard.
[17:39:28] <James_F> Philippe: That's something Parsoid will handle.
[17:39:34] <Philippe> 'kay
[17:39:38] <Risker> Just for the record, the == Foo == vs. ==Foo== issue has resulted in repeated slow edit wars for years.
[17:39:58] <James_F> There's also other things, where they are customised in the software but don't show up yet in VisualEditor.
[17:40:22] <James_F> For example, the French Wikipedia dislikes the "[ ]"s around reference numbers, so got rid of them.
[17:40:44] <James_F> Right now, Parsoid's version of Cite doesn't use the local configuration, but it will soon.
[17:41:06] <Philippe> Excellent.
[17:41:12] <Risker> I apologize for coming late, so this may already have been covered. The edit tools that are going to be coming in soon? How similar will they be to the edit tools that are currently available with wikitext?
[17:41:16] <Elitre> my French people will be glad to hear this!
[17:41:17] <James_F> Well, "soon". We've got a lot of other things to work on too, like editing images' options or in language variants.
[17:41:30] <Philippe> (Risker's question is next.... )
[17:41:37] <Philippe> (errr. now)
[17:41:38] <Thryduulf> james:presumably that will sort the 1 a b c vs 1.1 1.2 1.3 etc?
[17:41:41] <James_F> Risker: Welcome, BTW. :-)
[17:41:51] <James_F> Thryduulf: Yes.
[17:41:55] <Philippe> Elitre, we like to keep the French happy.
[17:42:07] <Nutmore> Hey Risker, nice to see you. :)
[17:42:12] <James_F> Risker: Which "edit tools" were you thinking of, specifically?
[17:42:49] <Thryduulf> presumably bug 50926 for edit tools
[17:43:07] <Thryduulf> sorry, 50296
[17:43:58] <Philippe> I'm not sure that's the right bug either, Thryduulf. That one seems to be about window creep :)
[17:44:11] <Philippe> sorry
[17:44:12] <Philippe> my bad.
[17:44:14] <Philippe> wrong bugzilla.
[17:44:21] <Thryduulf> Bug 50296 - VisualEditor: Provide a character insertion tool
[17:44:33] <Elitre> Since there are more or less 15 minutes left, don't be shy, everybody, ask now!
[17:44:38] <James_F> Thryduulf: Adding special characters? That's going to be a bit different from the wikitext editor's default one (note that that is often customised on a per-wiki basis, so what you think it provides and what it provides in pracitice are likely different).
[17:44:47] <Philippe> (i followed the link that chatzilla put in... which takes me to mozilla's bugzilla)
[17:45:09] <James_F> Thryduulf: For example, the quick-link to add "<ref></ref>" isn't going to be very useful. :-)
[17:45:37] <Thryduulf> indeed, I know the insertion options at Wiktionary are very different to those at Wikipedia
[17:45:46] <James_F> Thryduulf: But for users who can't type î ï í ì į etc., they'll be able to use that.
[17:46:04] <Thryduulf> I was just giving context for risker'squestion
[17:46:07] * James_F nods.
[17:46:36] <Philippe> ...Risker, the dearly departed. Hopefully she'll come back.
[17:46:40] <James_F> There's also the ones in the WikiEditor toolbar for wikitext; the pre-WikiEditor toolbar for wikitext; and the ones at the bottom of the edit screen below the save button.
[17:46:53] <James_F> So… it's currently a real mess, and we're not going to replicate the mess. :-)
[17:47:09] <Thryduulf> how very un wiki of you ;)
[17:47:25] <Philippe> LOL - Thryduulf, that's xactly what i just said in person.
[17:47:35] <Elitre> I think James will be ok with me collecting that question from Risker and then getting her an answer when we can :)
[17:48:00] <Philippe> Elitre, work with James on that, will you? Getting whatever clarification he needs from Risker?
[17:48:02] <Keegan> Welcome, Micru
[17:48:02] <James_F> Elitre: Yeah, if Risker doesn't make it back, happy to answer offline or later today.
[17:48:17] <Philippe> Other questions?
[17:48:29] <Philippe> Otherwise, Keegan is going to start warming up for his dramatic reading. I understand he's got props!
[17:48:38] * James_F shudders.
[17:48:38] <Keegan> And costumes
[17:48:40] <Philippe> And dancing.
[17:48:55] <Keegan> No dancing. I look like Gumby in a hard breeze
[17:49:06] <Philippe> d'awww
[17:49:08] <Thryduulf> what about supporting redirects, is that at all a priority
[17:49:10] <Thryduulf>  ?
[17:49:20] <Keegan> Good question
[17:49:24] <James_F> Thryduulf: It's not a priority, but it's not very hard to do.
[17:49:34] <James_F> Thryduulf: So… if there's huge demand for it, we can do that.
[17:50:16] <Philippe> So, James, if you're reflecting on the task ahead, what's the biggest chunk of work? The one that you're most excited about/scared of/delighted by?
[17:50:27] <Thryduulf> well I'd personally find it rather useful, but how many others would say that I don't know
[17:50:29] <James_F> Biggest one thing? Oy.
[17:50:47] <Philippe> He just gave me a look that says "Go back in the other room, little moderator."
[17:50:49] <Keegan> That'd be nice. When I didn't know in the beginning it didn't support redirects, I was quite confused why the VE button went away on redirect pages even though I was in Main namespace
[17:50:49] <James_F> I'd be really happy when we get reference insertion done.
[17:51:04] <Philippe> Refs, yeah. That's big.
[17:51:21] <James_F> After that… well, copy-and-paste is /finally/ nearly completion.
[17:51:28] <Philippe> yay!
[17:51:34] <Keegan> big yay
[17:51:37] <Thryduulf> excellenté
[17:52:11] <Philippe> OK, then I'm going to declare this here topic done and dead, unless James wants to say any final words.
[17:52:17] <James_F> And in the longer-term, table editing, real-time collaboration and media uploading all make me look forward.
[17:52:50] <Philippe> I'll be posting the logs to meta shortly....
[17:52:56] <James_F> OK, thanks everyone. :-)
[17:53:15] <James_F> And you can grill me again in 6 hours' time if you have any further questions.
[17:53:27] * James_F waves.
[17:53:28] <Thryduulf> .e puts his thinking cap on
[17:53:30] <Philippe> I think we're done here. For the next show (in T-minus 6 hours), JamesA will be teaming up with James_F in the duet-of-the-James'.
[17:53:42] <Philippe> See ya'll later!
[17:53:58] <James_F> See you!
[17:54:03] <Thryduulf> TTFN