IRC office hours/Office hours 2015-01-16

Wikidata office hours (2015-01-16)

Commons (aude, 18:04:01)
- LINK: https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitten_on_arbitrary_page :) (aude, 18:05:59)
- usage tracking is being enabled (tentatively Feb 2) on Wikidata, then commons is next after (no date yet) (aude, 18:19:25)
- being worked on pretty quickly now by Nik, Stas, Gabriel and jzerebecki (but don't have date yet for when it is ready) (aude, 18:24:44)
Freebase and sources (aude, 18:29:22)
- LINK: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:Primary_sources_tool (aude, 18:29:55)
- LINK: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Citoid (Scott_WUaS, 18:32:15)
Development plan (aude, 18:44:11)
- LINK: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan (aude, 18:44:17)
Freebase (questions for denny) (aude, 18:55:21)
- LINK: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Freebase (aude, 18:58:26)
Meeting ended at 19:03:31 UTC.
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Time: 18:00-19:00 UTC

Channel: #wikimedia-office

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03:35 <aude> #startmeeting Wikidata office hours

03:35 <wm-labs-meetbot`> Meeting started Fri Jan 16 18:03:35 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is aude. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.

03:35 <wm-labs-meetbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.

03:35 <wm-labs-meetbot`> The meeting name has been set to 'wikidata_office_hours'

03:49 <Lydia_WMDE> ok then let's start with commons

03:49 <sjoerddebruin> Yay!

03:56 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: do you have specific questions?

03:58 <sjoerddebruin> (that's for the bot thing btw)

04:01 <aude> #topic commons

04:20 <PKM> Status of next step on Commons linkage?

04:32 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

04:38 <Lydia_WMDE> so the current state is this:

05:05 <Lydia_WMDE> * commons can access sitelinks and data from items connected to the page directly through a sitelink

05:23 <Lydia_WMDE> * we're working on enabling arbitrary access so you can also access data from other items

05:43 <aude> it's enabled now on test.wikipedia.org and test.wikidata

05:58 <Lydia_WMDE> i hope we can get that done in february but we've had some setbacks with enabling arbitrary access with usage tracking on wikidata itself just now

05:59 <aude> https://test.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitten_on_arbitrary_page :)

06:20 <PKM> Does sitelink in this case include the properties Commons Category and Commons Institution page?

06:21 <Lydia_WMDE> once it is running on wikidata we'll go for commons next

06:44 <aude> tentative to enable usage tracking on wikidata on february 2

06:50 <jzerebecki> PKM: no

07:04 <aude> (no deploys the next two weeks, due to mediawiki developer summit and wmf staff meetings)

07:11 <sjoerddebruin> wut

07:27 <sjoerddebruin> So I have borked translations for two weeks?

07:43 <aude> sjoerddebruin: translations are automatically updated, afaik

07:48 <aude> still would happen

08:12 <sjoerddebruin> Hmpf, why is there no clear announcement about it?

08:17 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: let's check after this office hour if the dutch translation for that string is done or not yet

08:18 <sjoerddebruin> Should be in tech news.

08:30 <sjoerddebruin> Lydia_WMDE: talking about other translations now.

08:35 <Lydia_WMDE> ah

08:36 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

08:40 <sjoerddebruin> Someone forgot two headers of the sitelink section.

08:54 <sjoerddebruin> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2q9zxcrsce5yyrc/Schermafdruk%202015-01-16%2019.08.50.png?dl=0

09:20 <sjoerddebruin> Fixed that on Wednesday, but that was too late it seems.

09:25 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

10:50 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: do you know if the translation has been done already and is just missing deployment?

11:08 <sjoerddebruin> The sitelink one?

11:11 <Lydia_WMDE> yeah

11:21 <sjoerddebruin> Like I said, fixed them Wednesday.

11:29 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

11:36 <PKM> Will Commons Category and Commons Institution be linked in the next phase, or later?

11:47 <sjoerddebruin> And translations don't go automatic. Experienced that with the holiday break.

11:59 <sjoerddebruin> It's really annoying to have two breaks in such short time.

13:01 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: can you clarify what you want linked where please?

14:36 <Stryn> sjoerddebruin: if it's so annoying you can locally translate those; e.g. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Wikibase-sitelinks-wikipedia/nl and delete after they comes from translatewiki

15:00 <PKM> I think the Wikidata item should show up in the left tools column when the category or institution page is viewed, unless swollen has a better plan.

15:01 <sjoerddebruin> Stryn: Well, let's do that then.

15:31 <PKM> I have the wikidata-link-at-the-top option turned on and I really like that.

15:38 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: hmm that should already be happening. can you point me to an example where it is not?

15:57 <PKM> Maybe there's just a delay on new items

16:16 <PKM> That is, newly made links?

16:27 <jzerebecki> Lydia_WMDE: even when that page has no sitelink to the wd item?

16:29 <Lydia_WMDE> shouldn't matter much

16:40 <Lydia_WMDE> jzerebecki: no it needs a sitelink

17:05 * PKM goes to look

17:07 <aude> Lydia_WMDE: are you sure this works already (a gadget? or something?)

17:09 <GerardM-> it used to be that translations were updated daily

17:24 <GerardM-> any clue why this is no longer the case ?

17:53 <GerardM-> My question would be when can we have the delight of an official query tool ?

18:08 <Lydia_WMDE> heh

18:10 <Lydia_WMDE> well

18:11 <aude> Intitution:British Museum might be connected to item "Institution:British Museum"

18:22 <PKM> Example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Institution:Museo_Nazionale_di_San_Matteo,_Pisa

18:24 <aude> but not to Item "British Museum"

18:29 <Lydia_WMDE> it is being worked on pretty quickly now by Nik, Stas, Gabriel and jzerebecki

18:49 <Lydia_WMDE> i am not going to speculate on a release date

18:56 <Lydia_WMDE> but they are pretty quick

19:09 <GerardM-> days weeks months years ?

19:15 <jzerebecki> PKM: that page is not site linked on wikidata

19:16 <Lydia_WMDE> currently they are collecting input for which query language to select

19:25 <aude> #info usage tracking is being enabled (tentatively Feb 2) on Wikidata, then commons is next after (no date yet)

19:31 <Lydia_WMDE> i'd say a few months

19:33 <GerardM-> I do not mind you to be wrong I prefer you to be realistic

19:53 <GerardM-> so by Wikimania we might have something

20:18 <Lydia_WMDE> jzerebecki: ? ;-)

20:25 <sjoerddebruin> As long it's not becoming something like SUL.

20:44 <GerardM-> I prefer WDQ anyday over nothing

20:51 <Lydia_WMDE> totally

21:56 <PKM> jzerebecki: right, but it's defined as the commons institution page, which as a user I would expect to generate a link.

22:21 <PKM> Having to also make a Commonswiki link seems redundant.

22:39 <GerardM-> jzerebecki: will there be some room to move tools to the new query environment ?

23:13 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: agreed. technical details why this is not the case. with arbitrary access i think we can solve this

23:21 <GerardM-> will it be feasible at all ?

23:42 <PKM> Lydia_WMDE: great, thank you

23:45 <jzerebecki> Lydia_WMDE: sounds realistic, though it is hard say when a public query language will be more reliable than wdq.wmflabs.org

23:50 <Lydia_WMDE> GerardM-: i don't think there is any plan to switch off wdq so as long as it is kept running tools can migrate

24:44 <aude> #info being worked on pretty quickly now by Nik, Stas, Gabriel and jzerebecki (but don't have date yet for when it is ready)

24:49 <Lydia_WMDE> that is it is up to magnus to decide how much time he wants to put into it and when to shut it down

25:38 <jzerebecki> GerardM-: it is my understanding that one of the goals is to have something that is publicly accessible and at least as powerful as wdq.wmflabs.org but more stable

28:10 <Lydia_WMDE> ok next topic then: have you already provided input on https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:Primary_sources_tool ?

28:23 <Lydia_WMDE> i am sure vrandecic would love some more

29:22 <aude> #topic Freebase and sources

29:33 <vrandecic> Yes, the more the merrier! :)

29:39 <Lydia_WMDE> :D

29:44 <aude> #info https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:Primary_sources_tool

29:53 <aude> ah,

29:55 <aude> #link https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata_talk:Primary_sources_tool

30:25 <Lydia_WMDE> vrandecic: anything you are looking for input on in particular?

30:55 <sjoerddebruin> Freebase identifiers would make it easier to find things right?

31:21 <Lydia_WMDE> they help with the mapping yeah

31:32 <vrandecic> does anynone know if citoid would work with wikidata?

31:41 <sjoerddebruin> There should be a game to encourage people to add them.

32:01 <vrandecic> yes, we need the mappings to create the files with the data to upload

32:15 <Scott_WUaS> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Citoid

32:22 <vrandecic> sjoerddebruin: I guess it will be similar to the games

32:23 <aude> vrandecic: it might but really don't know and don't know how difficult it would be to make it work

32:35 <aude> #link http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Citoid

32:46 <sjoerddebruin> vrandecic: Yes, but you first need to be right that the item on Wikidata is the same as the entry on Freebase.

33:01 <vrandecic> sjoerddebruin: true :)

33:12 <sjoerddebruin> There are still a lot of missing connections.

33:20 <vrandecic> there are a lot of mappings already

33:22 <aude> i think it would make sense to make use and integrate with existing system like citoid, but just don't know how feasible

33:33 <vrandecic> I recently checked for the nationality data

33:45 <Scott_WUaS> Is Zotero compatible with Wikidata - Citoid works with this

34:01 <vrandecic> and of the 800-900k statements we have, about 600k were mapped both on the subject and object

34:14 <Lydia_WMDE> not bad

34:47 <sjoerddebruin> I think it's still hard for users to add references.

34:55 <Lydia_WMDE> it is

34:57 <vrandecic> yes, that's the main pain point

35:06 <sjoerddebruin> You need to put a lot of effort in them before they show up in the entity suggester.

35:14 <Lydia_WMDE> so in terms of redesign: we're tackling the header area now

35:24 <Lydia_WMDE> as well as doing fixes on the sitelink section

35:32 <Lydia_WMDE> after that the statement section is the target

35:45 <Lydia_WMDE> one of the things we will do there is make it easier to add references

35:53 <Lydia_WMDE> allowing you to do it in one step for example

36:32 <vrandecic> Lydia_WMDE: can you make sure that this is usable outside a Wikidata page? that would help a lot with the primary sources tool!

37:04 <Lydia_WMDE> vrandecic: hah - we will try yeah

37:19 <sjoerddebruin> But if you click on add reference, you end up in a dead end most of the times...

37:20 <PKM> It would be great to add the same reference to multiple statements in one step.

37:43 <sjoerddebruin> How will people find https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P854 ?

37:51 <sjoerddebruin> or https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P248 ?

38:26 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: they do not show up still? maybe we need to tweak the threshold there

38:44 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: we're thinking of making it easier to copy an existing reference

38:49 <sjoerddebruin> I think the threshold for references is too damn high.

38:53 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

39:32 <Lydia_WMDE> i'll file a ticket so we can look into this

39:45 <Lydia_WMDE> might well be that we need another treshold for references than claims

39:58 <sjoerddebruin> I've already suggested that some properties should show up as default there.

40:13 <PKM> Wacky thought - has anyone ever suggest a 'reference ISBN' as a property, externally linked, to skip the whole problem that the entity, book, publisher etc don't already exist?

41:31 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: i think this is best brought up on the talk page of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Sources

41:39 <PKM> Will do!

41:57 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: ah right. i need to find those tickets again as well

41:58 <Scott_WUaS> PKM: good idea :)

42:22 <vrandecic> (this Webinterface of freenode offers a lot of room for improvement)

42:29 <Lydia_WMDE> haha

42:33 <sjoerddebruin> Lydia_WMDE: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T77972 ;)

42:38 <Lydia_WMDE> thanks!

43:58 <Lydia_WMDE> ok next topic - development plan

44:07 <Lydia_WMDE> i took some time to update https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan

44:11 <aude> #topic development plan

44:16 <Lydia_WMDE> in case you have not seen it yet

44:17 <aude> #link https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan

44:36 <sjoerddebruin> That was huge needed imo

44:43 <Lydia_WMDE> :)

44:49 <sjoerddebruin> Hey look, "Improved user experience for referencing"

44:52 <sjoerddebruin> ;)

44:57 <Lydia_WMDE> if anything on there is unclear or something super important is missing please say so

45:02 <Lydia_WMDE> hehe

45:03 <Lydia_WMDE> right

45:30 <vrandecic> I would vote for moving Wiktionary up

45:31 <sjoerddebruin> Seems like there is also something for PKM: "A user adds one piece of information of a reference like its ISBN. The tool then automatically adds the other necessary information"

45:42 <aude> hah, the <img src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/15px-Yes_check.svg.png" decoding="async" width="15" height="15" class="mw-file-element" data-file-width="600" data-file-height="600">  Done thing is localized (in spanish for me) :)

45:48 * PKM does happy dance

46:11 <Lydia_WMDE> vrandecic: not just you it seems -.-

46:23 <Lydia_WMDE> just had someone email me today about it

46:26 <vrandecic> I would be very sad if it was just me :)

46:31 <Lydia_WMDE> haha

46:32 <sjoerddebruin> Wiktionary is a popular thing it seems.

46:35 <Lydia_WMDE> true

46:37 <PKM> I think that assumes that the reference already exists as an item (of that's what I assumed when I read it)

46:48 <vrandecic> aude: you might enjoy my user page https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/User:Denny - highly localized

46:57 <sjoerddebruin> PKM: Maybe the tool can make items. :)

47:05 <aude> :)

47:12 <PKM> sjoerddebruin: yes please

47:14 <Lydia_WMDE> PKM: no this is more about looking up zotero or something similar. how exactly it'd work/look i am not sure yet

47:23 <PKM> Oh hooray

47:32 <Scott_WUaS> Lydia_WMDE: can you say please where these "Wikidata/Notes/Future" projects - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Notes/Future - fit in with https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan ?

47:48 <Lydia_WMDE> uhhhhh blast from the past :D

47:50 <Lydia_WMDE> let me look

47:56 * aude is getting into editing wiktionary some (while trying to learn german etc.)

48:04 <aude> omg, interwiki links would be so nice there :)

48:12 <aude> can't wait

48:31 <aude> not to mention the structured stuff

48:56 <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: ah ok. so this was mostly collecting input on future uses of Wikidata. i am not sure this is useful anymore to be honest

49:12 <Scott_WUaS> Thanks

49:15 <jzerebecki> omg, yes please, structured wiktionary!

49:29 <Lydia_WMDE> yes yes yes ;-)

49:30 <Lydia_WMDE> but!

49:31 <vrandecic> +2

49:42 <Lydia_WMDE> focus please people ;-) let's get the ones we have working

49:45 <Lydia_WMDE> then commons

49:48 <Lydia_WMDE> then wiktionary

49:49 <Lydia_WMDE> ;-)

49:49 <vrandecic> no buts, just do it :)

49:53 <Lydia_WMDE> lol

49:55 <Lydia_WMDE> right

50:33 <Lydia_WMDE> seriously though. one thing at a time *product hat on*

50:43 <Scott_WUaS> Lydia_WMDE: Is there another Wikidata link for external CC projects and as they relate to the https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Development_plan ? I understand there are a lot of these

50:44 <Lydia_WMDE> and with freebase we really need to focus on:

50:46 <Lydia_WMDE> * scaling

50:50 <Lydia_WMDE> * better user interface

50:57 <Lydia_WMDE> * tools to improve data quality

51:29 <Lydia_WMDE> and then glorious wiktionary world ;-)

51:40 <vrandecic> if we withhold Freebase for a few months, will we get Wiktionary earlier? ;)

51:54 <Lydia_WMDE> vrandecic: rofl. evil plans!

51:57 <Lydia_WMDE> i see them coming

52:36 <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: hmmm no i don't think so right now besides the old page you linked to

53:20 <Lydia_WMDE> alright we're nearing the end of the office hour. any last big things to talk about today?

53:49 <sjoerddebruin> Where is my shirt?

53:57 <sjoerddebruin> (talking about big things)

54:03 <Lydia_WMDE> sjoerddebruin: being ordered atm ;-)

54:09 <vrandecic> would anyone mind if I steal those minutes with a few questions re the Freebase data?

54:17 <Lydia_WMDE> go for it

54:34 <vrandecic> What should we do with external keys, like VIAF, etc.?

54:44 <vrandecic> do people want to use references for those and if so, what?

55:19 <Lydia_WMDE> did you look at the existing referenes max made when he was there?

55:19 <Scott_WUaS> member:Lydia_WMDE: Thanks, Lydia ... where please is the Wikidata planning page for Freebase integration, if there is one ?

55:21 <aude> #topic Freebase (questions for denny)

55:28 <PKM> VIAF is it's own reference

55:33 <PKM> Its

55:34 <vrandecic> and second, my thinking is that instead of introducing new items, we should go for making the graph betweens those that we already have in wikidata denser. Anyone disagreeing?

55:52 <PKM> Not I

56:00 <Lydia_WMDE> no this seems very sensible

56:26 <vrandecic> PKM: OK, but would these stateements need to go through the user tool, or should we just upload such keys?

56:32 <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Primary_sources_tool is the best place currently i think

56:54 <vrandecic> and this: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Freebase

57:10 <Lydia_WMDE> ah right

57:12 <Lydia_WMDE> thx

57:18 <Scott_WUaS> Thanks!

57:43 <jzerebecki> vrandecic: that would depend on the error rate, right?

57:46 <matej_suchanek> Lydia_WMDE: may I have a question?

57:53 <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: sure

57:55 <vrandecic> If you ask me, I am happy with just letting multichill to upload the VIAFs that are still missing

58:06 <Scott_WUaS> Thanks, Denny

58:07 <matej_suchanek> how will the usage tracking thing look like?

58:08 <vrandecic> jzerebecki: true

58:26 <aude> #link https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Freebase

58:36 <PKM> vrandecic: can we spot check existing VIAFS to estimate error rate?

58:40 <vrandecic> jzerebecki: my assumption is an error rate of below 1%, but it would be good to check that

58:52 <vrandecic> PKM: yes, absolutely, good idea

59:13 <vrandecic> I will obviously release these keys, and then they can be checked before upload

59:39 <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: nothing user visible at this point. in the future there should be a way for editors to see where a certain data point is used but i don't know where/how yet. so far it is only a database table that tracks it so we know which pages to purge when the data changes

59:50 <Lydia_WMDE> matej_suchanek: does that make sense?

00:10 <matej_suchanek> yes, thank you for the explanation!

00:15 <Lydia_WMDE> cool

00:48 <Lydia_WMDE> vrandecic: more questions from your side?

01:08 <vrandecic> Lydia_WMDE: plenty, but time is up. I will follow up on the WikiProject page

01:13 <Lydia_WMDE> :)

01:14 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

01:23 <Lydia_WMDE> anyone else?

01:52 <Lydia_WMDE> otherwise i'll let you all have a nice weekend

01:55 <Scott_WUaS> I'm curious ...

01:57 <Lydia_WMDE> thanks for coming everyone!

02:12 <Scott_WUaS> Thank you ... will ask later!

02:12 <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: about?

02:16 <Lydia_WMDE> ok

02:21 <PKM> Thanks all!

02:30 <Scott_WUaS> Thank you for holding these office hours!

02:31 <matej_suchanek> good bye all!

03:31 <aude> #endmeeting