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IRC office hours/Office hours Sue 2010-09-30

< IRC office hours
[3:58pm] dgultekin:Welcome Sue
[3:59pm] sgardner:Hello!
[3:59pm] britty:hi
[3:59pm] sgardner:Hey Aphaia!
[3:59pm] sgardner:How are you?
[3:59pm] Ziko:hello everybody
[3:59pm] britty:fine but i wanna wikibreak too :)
[3:59pm] sgardner:Hello Ziko :-)
[3:59pm] kim_:britty, AGAIN?
[3:59pm] britty:rapidly busy in recent
[3:59pm] kim_:britty, you take wikibreaks every 1-2 years :-)
[3:59pm] sgardner:Why do you want a wikibreak? You are bringing Japanese people to internal: it's good :-)
[4:00pm] sgardner was granted voice by ChanServ.
[4:00pm] aude_ joined the chat room.
[4:00pm] britty:sgardner: that is; i'm working like a horse now
[4:00pm] kim_:actually, that's probably a good thing to do
[4:00pm] sgardner:Hi Aude :-)
[4:00pm] britty:hi aude
[4:00pm] dgultekin:We'll get started here in a second
[4:00pm] kim_:Ok, it looks like the office-cabal is here today :-P
[4:00pm] britty:in 60 minues
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[4:00pm] aude_ is now known as aude.
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[4:01pm] StevenW:Hi Abbas
[4:01pm] Abbasjnr:Hi Steven
[4:01pm] aude:Hi, wifi=terrble at starbucks today, so trying it on iPhone
[4:02pm] kim_:I have just 1 question/comment, I'll just leave it here and then read the logs later :-)
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[4:02pm] dgultekin:Welcome everybody
[4:03pm] dgultekin:I'll have Sue give us a quick update and we can get started with the questions
[4:03pm] sgardner:Thanks. Kim, do you want to give your question/comment first, and then I'll go?
[4:03pm] kim_:q: Right now, the only "hard' feedback a community can do is to go "fork you" and head off in a huff. Are there any milder things a community might do , rather than go nukular all at once?
[4:03pm] sgardner:And on that note ...?
[4:03pm] kim_:And I'll leave the floor to sue!
[4:03pm] sgardner:hee
[4:03pm] sgardner:Thanks Kim.
[4:04pm] sgardner:Bye bye.
[4:04pm] kim_:night!
[4:04pm] Eloquence:lol. night kim
[4:04pm] kim_ is now known as kim_zzz.
[4:04pm] britty:lolz night kim
[4:04pm] aude:Hi Eloquence
[4:04pm] sgardner:Okay. So we met a couple of weeks ago here, and pretty close to the end of the meeting, Geni asked some questions about Pending Changes. We talked about it for just a few minutes, but it was pretty obvious that it deserved a longer conversation ....
[4:04pm] Eloquence:hi aude :) how did the screensprint go?
[4:04pm] sgardner:So, this is that longer conversation.
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[4:05pm] Ziko:are pc a wmf thing?
[4:05pm] aude:Eloquence: Good & nice to finally see the office :)
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[4:05pm] sgardner:I'm here, and also Rob Lanphier, Howie (who's just getting set up), Erik Moeller, and some other folks -- but Rob, Howie and Erik are the primary staff people who're subjectmatter experts on PC.
[4:05pm] sgardner:Now
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[4:06pm] sgardner:Unfortunately we didn't publicize this as a PC meeting, we accidentally just publicized it as a Sue Gardner office hours. So maybe people who would've turned up if they'd known it was PC, won't.
[4:06pm] sgardner:So that's too bad.
[4:06pm] Ziko:i don't mind, just curious
[4:06pm] Eloquence:kim_zzz: I was actually just talking about feedback systems with RobLa.. I think there are some interesting rapid feedback/communication approaches both for communities and readers that could give us a continual "health" dashboard of a given community/project. Check out the FF4 feedback system at http://input.mozilla.com/en-US/ for example.
[4:07pm] Topic changed to "#wikimedia-office Office Hours with Sue Gardner: Pending Changes" by dgultekin.
[4:07pm] jps:the most recent poll on enwiki's pending changes is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pending_changes/Straw_poll_on_interim_usage if anyone wants to skim the arguments
[4:08pm] dgultekin:Thanks, jps
[4:08pm] • kim_zzz opens one eye, at noticing pending changes
[4:08pm] sgardner:But regardless, here _we_ are, and we're happy to talk about Pending Changes, or happy to talk about other stuff.
[4:08pm] sgardner:I just want to make one quick comment about PC before we get started.
[4:08pm] sgardner:Essentially: I am a little sad to see people get so mad at the staff, particularly Risker. (Because I know Risker's an experienced, trusted Wikipedian, and I know she was deeply involved in the trial.) So it makes me sad when people get so angry. So I would ask you, as we have this conversation, to remember that the staff is essentially doing its best to discern the will of the community WRT this feature (which as you know, and as MZMc
[4:08pm] sgardner:Bride said the other day) has a long and fraught history. We are not trying to ram anything down anybody's throat.
[4:08pm] sgardner:That's it from me :-)
[4:08pm] kim_zzz:Eloquence, Well, also, it'd be nice to actually have some way to crack the whip at wmf members who are out of line
[4:09pm] Abbasjnr:Is this a Q&A chat or an informal discussion?
[4:09pm] • kim_zzz closes eye and actually heads out
[4:09pm] sgardner:Whatever we want it to be :-)
[4:09pm] dgultekin:Both, Abbasjnr
[4:09pm] Eloquence:kim_zzz: lol, cracking the whip is generally not a useful communication/interaction style either way I think :)
[4:09pm] jps:offline editing will solve all the pending changes controversy because third party edit conflict resolution is a fairer and more sane way to perform a very similar operation
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[4:10pm] aude:sgardner: I need to take a good look at pc, but sounds like it's a bit buggy
[4:10pm] kim_zzz:Eloquence, normally and generally no. But as a graded alternative to nuclear or nothing approach....
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[4:10pm] kim_zzz:Eloquence, I'm worried WMF is losing touch with communities ^^;;
[4:11pm] Risker:hi sgardner...yes, I was quite angry that the poll started by a staff member didn't include the option "turn it off for now and come back when you've fixed the big bugs"
[4:11pm] kim_zzz:Eloquence, not due to anyones fault, but rather due to lack of feedback loops.
[4:11pm] aude:The idea of pc is great but if getting into day to day use, bugs are so much a problem then it makes me hesitant
[4:11pm] Eloquence:kim_zzz: fair enough, but please be specific and don't hit and run. stay up and talk to us if you want :)
[4:11pm] kim_zzz:Eloquence, power to compel to some degree would be useful
[4:11pm] Risker:the original poll was either turn it off permanently or keep it on
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[4:11pm] aude:To rush. Yet I know the release early often way
[4:11pm] Risker:but that isn't about the feature
[4:11pm] kim_really_zzz is now known as kim_unzzz.
[4:11pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, Ok, I'm awake
[4:11pm] Eloquence: \o/
[4:12pm] robla:(sorry...lost connection for a sec)
[4:12pm] Eloquence: kim_unzzz: What situation are you talking about, specifically?
[4:12pm] sgardner:(Risker: I know you were angry. I'm not angry with you: I think you're great and you're engaging in good faith. I am hopeful we can (all of us) resolve whatever's problematic. It shouldn't be impossible: we have the same goal :-)
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[4:12pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, The situation we want to prevent ;-)
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[4:13pm] • Eloquence hugs kim
[4:13pm] • StevenW huggles kim
[4:13pm] jps:offline editing is also the solution to kim_unzzz's question: offline editing makes forking the normal mode of operation
[4:13pm] dgultekin:Anyone who has a comment/question about PC please share
[4:13pm] • robla hugs kim
[4:13pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, where frustrations continuously build up in a community, they stack all their complaints, no one anwers them ever, and in the end, the community gives up and goes "fork you"
[4:13pm] howief:hugs kim_unzzz
[4:13pm] Risker:I've taken a look at the roadmap: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Pending_Changes_enwiki_trial/Roadmap
[4:13pm] • dgultekin hugs kim
[4:13pm] jowen:hugs kim
[4:14pm] The_Thing: Why are diffs on articles protected by pending changes so slow to load?
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[4:14pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, we really want to let them blow off steam *some* time before then, n'est-ce pas? ;-)
[4:14pm] dgultekin:Sue is hugging you too, Kim
[4:14pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, preferably WAY before!
[4:14pm] jowen:Sue is hugging too!
[4:14pm] • kim_unzzz huggles all back ;-)
[4:14pm] Risker:my biggest concern is that there is a lot of focus on minor, quick fixes that are relatively cosmetic....the slowness is the much bigger issue
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[4:14pm] jowen:hi sgardner
[4:14pm] kim_unzzz:<hugging is a very effective measure too... awww>
[4:15pm] Ziko:I remember the question whether to adopt CC-BY-SA additionally to GFDL. Some guys predicted that it would ruin Wikipedia and so on, but ultimately 75 % voted pro
[4:15pm] kim_unzzz:but hugging has its limits! :-)
[4:15pm] Eloquence:kim_unzzz: I think you're tackling a very complex issue that manifests in different ways in differentcommunities. For example, I think the issue of frustration/burn-out manifests as regular churn in some of the smaller projects that simply don't have the technical support they need (e.g. Wikinews)
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[4:15pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, et/al we need to build in safety valves
[4:15pm] geniice:Ziko there are complications
[4:15pm] jps:robla: maybe adding a list of bugs to http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Pending_Changes_enwiki_trial would help people understand that they are being worked on, and that none of them (that I know about, anyway) are worse than a longer than usual delay?
[4:15pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, very likely
[4:15pm] geniice:Ziko that wasn't the only change that went though at that point
[4:15pm] Eloquence:kim_unzzz: And to some extent, that's not going to be something that we'll necessarily be able to address, unless we decide to shift a large amount of resources and attention to those projects.
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[4:16pm] Risker:jps, loading a diff for review is definitely much, much slower than just opening a diff
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[4:16pm] Eloquence:kim_unzzz: I tried to speak to this issue particularly when it comes to the sister projects in my wikimania presentation (i.e. a review of where the different projects are and what their actual likelihood of success is)
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[4:16pm] dgultekin:Does anybody have any specific questions for staff in the room about PC?
[4:16pm] aude:Slowness has been a general issue for me. My net connection tends not to be fast. Maybe need a simple skin, but...
[4:16pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, well, a lot of folks at foundation don't seem to be talking with projects, which is fine...
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[4:16pm] Ziko:why bugs? it works at de.wp. or have these bugs something to do with the fact that en.wp applies pc only for some articles?
[4:16pm] kim_unzzz:Eloquence, And patches aren't being handled, which is fine
[4:17pm] Eloquence:kim_unzzz: But I'm not sure which aspect of the issue you're talking about, because I think there's a difference between small projects that have a high level of churn and burn-out and some genuine risk of forking, and larger projects that may have more difficult and complex community health and governance issues.
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[4:17pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, and plugins aren't being plugged which is fine ...
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[4:17pm] jorm: The diff loading issue is a performance problem and we're looking into it.
[4:17pm] geniice: wait what?
[4:17pm] dgultekin: Connection problems, Sue will be right back :)
[4:17pm] Risker: dgultekin, I asked one....why there is not a full-on assault on the serious issues with the extension and instead the next target is cosmetic changes
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[4:17pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, and ... like ... jwales could maybe take a step back, but that's fine ...
[4:17pm] Eloquence: kim_unzzz: heh
[4:17pm] jps: are there any other bugs than the delay that people are worried about? I'm not seeing much on the straw polls
[4:18pm] dgultekin: We're going to let Rob answer that
[4:18pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, and there's this terribly misleading video about en.wp verifiability and NPOV policy on youtube that should be fixed , and the person responsible isn't responding on meta, but that's fine ...
[4:18pm] • guillom grabs popcorn.
[4:18pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, The problem is, how do we let the WMF know that this is a bad idea in the long run?
[4:18pm] Eloquence: kim_unzzz: that what is a bad idea?
[4:18pm] Risker: Jps: edit conflicts, reject button, methods to allow administrators to let reviewers know /why/ an article is on pending changes
[4:19pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, and how do we make sure that people understand that we appreciate their work, but there are some issues we would like to take up with them
[4:19pm] Abbasjnr: QUESTION: Any progress with the India office?
[4:19pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, Prefereably a century before we actually get anywhere remotely near angry? ;-)
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[4:19pm] robla: hi Risker, I think the most immediate obvious issues are the ones we're addressing
[4:19pm] robla: the performance problem that we know about (diff loading speed) is one that is in progress right now
[4:19pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, (you know, so we can talk politely, constructively and Eloquently ;-))
[4:19pm] Eloquence: kim_unzzz: in my experience it takes significantly less than a century for wikipedians to get angry about something :p
[4:19pm] sgardner_:(Abbasjnr, we're talking about Pending Changes for a while, but we can talk about the India office afterwards. I'll remember your question.)
[4:19pm] jps: Risker: thanks! Are these in bugzilla or listed in one place? On the last point, the talk page might work
[4:19pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, All the more reasons for rapid response, ne? ;-)
[4:19pm] Abbasjnr: Cool
[4:20pm] geniice: sgardner QUESTION. So lets go for the standard rules of play approach. What would the en community have to do to kill all attempts to get en to use pending changes
[4:20pm] JeffSchoep: I wish we'd work out exactly what WP wants to use PC for. Does it want to maybe move towards what WN does and check content thoroughly before an article goes in - even if only for vandalism control? That would eat up time, but still...
[4:20pm] Risker: robla, it is really important that those issues are all addressed before another upgrade is loaded onto the main wiki
[4:20pm] The_Thing: QUESTION: Why are diffs on articles protected by pending changes so slow to load?
[4:20pm] jowen: enoki
[4:20pm] robla:more details on the performance problem we're working on: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25289
[4:21pm] Eloquence: kim_unzzz: let's switch it off-channel since people here predominantly want to talk about pending changes
[4:21pm] jps: geniice: it sounds like you have objections to the idea of pending changes, not just the current implementation
[4:21pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, Basically, the long and short of it is, sometimes we have a message, we'd like the wmf acknowledge receipt, and take a look
[4:21pm] robla: Risker: what bugfix that's already checked in are you waiting for us to deploy?
[4:21pm] kim_unzzz:  :-)
[4:21pm] Risker: there are also issues with multiple revisions needing review, particularly if some are useful and some are bad...right now they all gone
[4:21pm] kim_unzzz: Eloquence, Ok, I'm being more general
[4:21pm] kim_unzzz: and Pending changes is just a specific case :-)
[4:21pm] geniice: jps we shall see but we can at least get the ground rules layed out
[4:21pm] sgardner_: (JeffSchoep, you just did something good. Which was to characterize the challenge as Wikipedia working out what it wants PC to be used for. I think too many people are asking what the WMF wants PC to be used for, which is not the issue. It's for Wikipedia, not for the WMF. )
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[4:22pm] sgardner_: (Wikipedia is trying to facilitate or enable the development of consensus. We don't have a dog in this fight, ourselves.)
[4:22pm] Risker: robla, until the speed issue is addressed, the tool causes more problems than it solves on pages larger than 75K for a lot of the reviewers
[4:22pm] sgardner_:(whoops, now I did it wrong. _Wikimedia_ not Wikipedia.)
[4:22pm] dgultekin: Welcome OlEnglish, we're talking about Pending Changes currently
[4:22pm] Risker: particularly if they are using Vector skin and/or have a slow connection...time outs, browser crashes
[4:23pm] jps: Risker: yes, that is the most interesting issue in that the reviewer needs to fold in good pending edits subsequent to bad ones. I predict that will improve just like the change of getting edit conflicts has improved over time
[4:23pm] jps: (improved==decreased in this case)
[4:23pm] Risker: jps, the reason there aren't edit conflicts is because a lot of reviewers abandoned the trial
[4:23pm] • britty has no idea why EnWP ppl has outraged - EnWN has welcomed more strict PendingRevisions?
[4:23pm] dgultekin: geniice asked: sgardner QUESTION. So lets go for the standard rules of play approach. What would the en community have to do to kill all attempts to get en to use pending changes
[4:23pm] robla: Risker: undersood. we're going to fix https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25289 before deploying another version
[4:23pm] JeffSchoep: Right. As-of now it is only vandalism control, but I doubt that will remain the case. We'll see.
[4:23pm] jps: britty: volume of edits?
[4:24pm] dgultekin: The_Thing asked: Why are diffs on articles protected by pending changes so slow to load?
[4:24pm] britty: jps: might be but volume of vands are rather higher on EnWP?
[4:24pm] robla: Risker: there was a lot of talk and I might have missed something. is there a question you'd like me to answer?
[4:24pm] jps: I'm glad these are all already in bugzilla
[4:24pm] britty: so EnWP would get much benefits
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[4:24pm] britty: hi moka!!
[4:24pm] Risker: JeffSchoep, most content editors have shied away from PC completely, almost all the reviewers are the folks who have historically done anti-vandal patrol
[4:25pm] Eloquence: geniice: The project goes back to the Flagged Protection / Patrolled Revisions community proposal, it's not something WMF is trying to force on anyone -- we're developing the software while there's sustained interested in experimenting with it.
[4:25pm] mokapantages:  :)
[4:25pm] jps: britty: yes, so when you have a larger proportion of vandalism edits and a larger total number of edits, it really creates a different editing environment
[4:25pm] Risker: Robla...addressing the issue of reviewers wanting to keep some but not all pending revisions
[4:25pm] britty: jps point taken
[4:25pm] JeffSchoep: Risker: Right. Contrast with enwn, where knowing your way round things like style guide are required to even get reviewer.
[4:26pm] geniice: Eloquence I'm well aware of the projects history. Are you going to attempt to answer my question in place of sue
[4:26pm] Risker: JeffSchoep, if we had that level of requirement, not even most administrators would be allowed to review
[4:26pm] Eloquence: geniice: yep :)
[4:26pm] Eloquence: geniice: I did.
[4:27pm] JeffSchoep: Risker: For sure. Something to think about when considering what else we might use it for on enWP.
[4:27pm] robla: the reason why diffs are slow to load on big articles is because often times, it involves fetching an old version and reparsing it. the gory details are documented here: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25289
[4:27pm] robla: ^^ was for The_Thing
[4:27pm] geniice: Eloquence try again and this time take it as read that I'm aware of what you have been tell the press amough other things
[4:27pm] Risker: JeffSchoep, it's been sold to us as an anti-vandalism tool, there's really no other use for it on the project
[4:28pm] • kim_bruning sees Eloquence is busy in multiple channels at once
[4:28pm] jps: how much level one cache do the parsing servers have?
[4:28pm] kim_bruning: poor guy ;-)
[4:28pm] JeffSchoep: Risker: Well, perhaps a better comment from me would be... different ways of doing such. e.g. checking full content thoroughly versus a quick fix for vandalism
[4:29pm] aude: I'd say featured articles are not good candidates for pc... It's more difficult for a newbie to make edits that are level of quality, proper formatting, refs... As a reviewer, it's tricky to evaluate
[4:29pm] Philippe joined the chat room.
[4:29pm] dgultekin: Hi Philippe
[4:29pm] kim_bruning: The problem with PC right now is simple: someone ran a majority vote on it, and attracted > N_dunbar participants
[4:29pm] kim_bruning: instant fail
[4:29pm] Philippe: Hey dgultekin  :)
[4:29pm] kim_bruning: (that always ends in no consensus)
[4:29pm] britty: hi Philippe
[4:29pm] Risker: aude, you are right. Sadly, almost all of our FA editors are avoiding the tool like the plague
[4:29pm] kim_bruning: easiest way to kill something on en.wp is to write a proposal and call a poll
[4:29pm] kim_bruning: calling a vote kills it harder
[4:29pm] aude: Do I fix the malformed edit, do I just approve if it's not vandalism but not a constructive edit
[4:30pm] robla: Risker: keeping some but not all revisions is a harder usability issue. That's not something we'll be able to make significant strides on by November, but our usability folks are looking at it to provide recommendations
[4:30pm] StevenW: aude: I just approve and then make edits if I need to.
[4:30pm] jps: I would love to see a graph of performance versus level one cache installed on parser tasks. Has anyone ever measured that?
[4:30pm] JeffSchoep: QUESTION: As regards PC - what is the problem you were trying to solve when deciding to create it? Or, to rephrase - what was the perceived need that got the show off the ground in the first place?
[4:30pm] aude: If have looked at some pc edits, decided I was not in position to determine and left it for someone else
[4:30pm] Risker: robla, that is one of the reasons why I say don't upload a new version in November, wait until you've got something worthwhile for us to evaluate
[4:31pm] effeietsanders: hm, just a stupid question: will it be possible to switch from mark-as-patrolled to pending-changes without loss of vandalism checks etc?
[4:31pm] Eloquence: JeffSchoep: I'll take this one
[4:31pm] sgardner_: JeffSchoep, Erik will answer your question, because he was there at the time :-)
[4:31pm] JeffSchoep: k
[4:31pm] • jps guesses BLPs
[4:32pm] Risker: well, keep in mind that the problem Erik was trying to solve is not necessarily the one that the community was trying to solve
[4:32pm] aude: StevenW: I feel not qualified (eg not enough subject knowledge) to fix
[4:32pm] jps: the earliest discussion of pending changes I can remember was prompted by the Siegenthaler incident
[4:32pm] StevenW: Aude: Ah, well you could always just leave it pending. ;)
[4:32pm] Eloquence: JeffSchoep: So, as a bit of history and back story, the first ideas of Pending Changes / Flagged Revisions date back to some early discussions in Wikipedia about the idea of the development of "stable versions" . A small interested group in the German Wikipedia developed a coherent proposal for review and patrolling which resulted in what's the May 2008 deployment of Flagged Revisions on the German Wikipedia.
[4:32pm] sgardner_: jps: yes
[4:33pm] Risker: aude, that was actually the rule of the trial, obvious vandalism out, but edits did not require subject matter expertise to be approved otherwise
[4:33pm] effeietsanders: Eloquence: hm, would you mind if I disagree? ;-)
[4:33pm] geniice: Eloquence you missed one but nice try
[4:33pm] effeietsanders: Eloquence: since nlwiki was using MAP already for years by then :P
[4:33pm] Eloquence: JeffSchoep: The motivation behind this deployment was to develop a general mechanism by which edits by new or untrusted users could be reviewed prior to being shown as the default reader-visible version, as a way to minimize and eliminate reader-facing vandalism.
[4:33pm] aude: Risker: Okay
[4:33pm] guillom left the chat room. ("Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.")
[4:34pm] robla: Risker: why should the performance problems wait until after November if we have a fix sooner?
[4:34pm] Eloquence: effeietsanders: I think that's a different development stream. I'm not trying to give particular innovation credit here. The FlaggedRevs deployment by the German Wikipedia is what resulted in the extension that's being used today to deploy and implement Pending Changes.
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[4:34pm] JeffSchoep: Eloquence: Do I understand correctly then that the original idea related only to new/untrusted folk? Hence why Reviewers get stuff autosighted...
[4:34pm] Risker: robla, we both know you aren't going to have those things fixed by November 16th. :) That isn't a criticism, either.
[4:34pm] Eloquence: Essentially, after the deployment of FlaggedRevs in the German Wikipedia, I posted pretty explicit instructions by which any language community could ask for activation of the FlaggedRevs extension with a given set of parameters.
[4:35pm] Eloquence: It is this process through which the extension was deployed in the projects listed on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FlaggedRevs
[4:35pm] Eloquence: What actually happened in the English Wikipedia community is that a long sequence of discussion resulted in a fairly elaborate proposal that was a significant deviation from the FlaggedRevs system as it existed at that point in time.
[4:36pm] Eloquence:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Flagged_protection_and_patrolled_revisions
[4:36pm] robla:Risker: we don't have any way of predicting the future, but I htink we're generally in a better position to stick with our dates as an organization than we were in the past
[4:36pm] Eloquence:The key difference between this proposal and the predominant use of this extension leading up to this point is that the new proposal suggested a two-level system of page patrolling / review.
[4:37pm] Eloquence:1) A selected number of pages would be subject to edits being moderated prior to being visible to readers, 2) All pages would be subject to an improved edit patrolling and labeling regime.
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[4:37pm] robla:Risker: one other thing to note: as a software deployment exercise, I think it's a good thing to deploy a new version by November 16. whether or not that's a good time to get consensus on keeping the feature is up to you all
[4:38pm] Eloquence:This proposal was voted on by the English Wikipedia community and by April 2009, there was a standing request to implement it on the English Wikipedia.
[4:38pm] Risker:robla, it's important that there be time to heal from that majority-rules poll as well. That had nothing to do with you, and in a way it doesn't have a lot to do with PC, it was very disruptive to the community and has turned a lot of the very editors whose goodwill is needed away from this tool
[4:38pm] geniice:Eloquence under certian conditions that the foundation hasn't kept to
[4:38pm] kim_bruning: (and I actually kind of like the current PC system)
[4:38pm] kim_bruning: (except someone managed to screw it up with polling ;-))
[4:38pm] Eloquence: We (WMF development and features engineering) reviewed this proposal, and it became increasingly evident that significant features re-engineering and development was required in order for the existing software extension to be usable for the intended feature.
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[4:39pm] kim_bruning: (as usual ... ;-) I just got out the popcorn... but yeah, this does make more people unhappy than we need to )
[4:39pm] Risker: robla, if you just want to test the software, maybe. This isn't about testing the software, it is about making sure that the community wants the software.
[4:39pm] Eloquence: This development and re-engineering process took much longer than it should have taken, leading to considerable frustrations and some accusations that WMF was deliberately delaying or preventing the implementation of any kind of edit patrolling features on the English Wikipedia.
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[4:40pm] geniice: Eloquence we know all this
[4:40pm] kim_bruning: Risker, well, they actually sorta don't right now, because someone really messed up selling it, eh? :-)
[4:40pm] • kim_bruning shan't name names ;-)
[4:40pm] Risker: if you keep handing them software that doesn't have its major bugs fixed, when they're already unhappy about the software, then they're not going to use it, and the WMF will have invested a lot of time and money into something that gets less use than Huggle
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[4:40pm] Ziko: (for me as a non native speaker it would be easier to follow this conversation without theses jokes)
[4:41pm] Eloquence: The key motivation behind the Pending Changes system as it exists today was not articulated or promoted by WMF, but is the result of the specific proposal developed by the English Wikipedia community. The motivation behind it was to have a graded system by which pages can be treated differently, depending on the level of risk and the perceived need for edit moderation to happen.
[4:41pm] Ziko: go on, eloquence
[4:41pm] geniice: sgardner_QUESTION okey lets take a different approach. What do you think are the boundries of the foundation's responcibility in this area
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[4:42pm] geniice: JeffSchoep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Pending_changes_trial
[4:43pm] sgardner_: Okay Geni.
[4:43pm] JeffSchoep: of course, I wonder what problem the community were trying to solve when they came up with that - but then, I can always read the discussions to find out
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[4:44pm] sgardner_: I think our responsibility is to try to help the community come to consensus on these types of issue. I think PC is particularly difficult because it bears the weight of so many people's wildly different expectations, and so much is lost in the mists of history. And I think the Foundation does not have unlimited resources to dedicate to one feature on enWP, however important. I also think the community has a responsibility to engage w
[4:44pm] sgardner_:ith us constructively, and to help find a workable solution for everyone. I think it's a two-way street :-)
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[4:44pm] You are now known as StevenW.
[4:45pm] JeffSchoep: QUESTION If the community tries it out for, say, six months or even a year - fully operational - and decides as a whole that they generally don't like it, how might they go about getting it terminated?
[4:45pm] Eloquence: Risker: I know your take on this, and you know mine -- I don't view there being any kind of betrayal in the fact that 65% of the community after the trial decided that they wanted to keep the system, and we simply did not disable the software. IMO the question of continued use of the system is completely separate from the question of the software being available.
[4:45pm] Risker: Eloquence, the "vote" did not include the option "turn it off and come back when you've got something usable"
[4:46pm] Eloquence: Risker: I didn't make the vote.
[4:46pm] dgultekin: We have about 15 minutes left
[4:46pm] dgultekin: Does anyone have any other questions about PC
[4:46pm] • JeffSchoep is interested to know if PC is now a guaranteed part of WP life or if it may yet be given up upon
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[4:47pm] Eloquence: We can spend a large amount of our mutual time thinking about whether this process was correct or not. As you know, I do believe that any other outcome would have caused controversy, given the inherently disruptive and divisive nature of any change whatsoever.
[4:47pm] Eloquence: I think a more productive and constructive path is for WMF to step back and for the community to discuss the parameters of continued use/trial (if any).
[4:47pm] Risker: folks, absolutely nothing has been said today that reassures me the community's desires will be respected
[4:47pm] dgultekin: Sue will address Abbasjnr's question about the India office towards the end
[4:47pm] Abbasjnr: Ok
[4:47pm] jps: I think it is very unlikely that more than a sixth of enwikians will have any problem with it in a year
[4:47pm] Risker: Eloquence....then don't give us another version until we've worked that out
[4:48pm] geniice: sgardner_ QUSETION so are you going to stop telling the press that 1)PC will open up wikipedia to more editing 2) that the BLP issue will be addressed by PC?
[4:48pm] Eloquence: Risker: How is deploying some code to the cluster even relevant?
[4:48pm] sgardner_: Risker: what would the Foundation need to do to be reassuring to you? (I mean reassuring for real, not reassuring for the sake of reassurance.)
[4:48pm] geniice: Eloquence becuase the defualt interface is in english
[4:49pm] Eloquence: Risker: You're completely free to define whatever parameters of trial and experimentation you want, and to develop consensus around that. That's been consistently the message we've been given.
[4:49pm] Eloquence: s/given/giving.
[4:49pm] jps: Risker: do you think the bugs can't be fixed?
[4:49pm] geniice: Eloquence we did
[4:50pm] Risker: there is probably enough support within the community to make another trial once the major issues have been resolved, and we have established parameters for a test. Uploading additional versions in the interim will be like picking off the scabs every time it is done
[4:51pm] sgardner_ was granted voice by dgultekin.
[4:51pm] sgardner_: Risker: Rob and I were just talking; we're going to try to articulate something. Hang on a sec.
[4:52pm] aude: Wonder if pc is disabled, do the pc logs dissapear?
[4:52pm] Risker: jps, I don't know enough about the mediawiki code to know if all of the key issues can be fixed, but I will take robla's word for it that it is possible. On the ability to write code, I am very happy to defer to him there
[4:54pm] JeffSchoep: I'm sure the devs could keep the old historical logs - just remove the effects and prevent new additions. Then again, I couldn't code my way out a wet paper bag...
[4:54pm] robla: Risker: I think some of the problem is this. we're trying the best we can to interpret the will of the community, however....
[4:54pm] robla: Risker: it's pretty clear that this is pretty contentious issue, and we know that some prominent community members (such as yourself) are upset by the path we chose. If we'd done something else, other prominent members (e.g. Jimmy) would be upset
[4:54pm] jps: the diff is a pretty complicated algorithm, and it's very easy to accidentally make it very inefficient
[4:54pm] robla: both of you can put together (different) cases that the community is behind you on this
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[4:55pm] robla: Risker: how do we resolve that conflict?
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[4:56pm] Risker: robla and Sue, if the tool had just been left on after the first poll, well...some people would have been disappointed, but they would probably have got over it. The second, majority rule poll, was the killer there, and it was as much because of the very nature of the poll, which is diametrically against the cultural values of the community, that pending changes is now in deep trouble
[4:57pm] Risker: the perception now is that it took breaking the community to keep this tool running
[4:57pm] robla: Risker: that second poll wasn't our poll
[4:57pm] Risker: it doesn't matter whose poll it is robla.
[4:57pm] sgardner_:So here's the thing. The Wikimedia Foundation wants to interpret the will of the community, and we need to be able to negotiate what makes sense, because some of the things "the community" wants are probably not going to be operationally realistic. So: in a perfect world we would have great robust mechanisms for determining "the will of the community." (e.g., councils, designated groups to work on specific issues, and so forth.) We do
[4:57pm] sgardner_:n't have that. So two things: 1) We aren't loving this either. It's been very difficult, and it continues to be difficult. And 2) We have a mutual responsibility to develop the kinds of mechanisms we're going to need.
[4:58pm] geniice:robla hint if you want to know what the community thinks ignore jimbo. He isn't part of it
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[4:58pm] sgardner_:That will take time. Maybe we can do some of the work developing those mechanisms through the evolution of PC.
[4:58pm] sgardner_:It's ridiculous to say that Jimmy isn't part of the community.
[4:58pm] geniice:robla of course it is understandable that you would want to know what jimbo thinks for other reasons but don't mistake him for community
[4:59pm] jps:sgardner_: I hope next time there will be time for some of these questions
[4:59pm] sgardner_:Okay! Shall I take Abbasjr's question :-)
[4:59pm] Abbasjnr:Yeah
[4:59pm] Ziko:india, great
[4:59pm] sgardner_:Or do we want a little more time on PC?
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[5:00pm] Ziko:on pc, everything is said, but still not by everybody
[5:00pm] aude:sgardner_: When are the next office hours with you?
[5:01pm] sgardner_:Abbasjr: re the India office. I don't know what you know, so I'll do a quick recap of recent changes. 1) We've got a recruiter looking for the person to run the Indian office.
[5:01pm] jowen:aude the next sgardner office hours are October 14 at 10:00PT
[5:01pm] Abbasjnr:ok
[5:01pm] sgardner_:(It'd be great if someone from the staff could post the recruiter info if it's easy to find.)
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[5:01pm] aude:jowen: Thanks
[5:02pm] geniice:sgardner_ the longer you view jimbo as part of the en community the longer you will have a hard time trying to understand the situation. Whats left of jimbo's power comes from being the founder and from his relationship with the foundation. Not from being part of en's community
[5:02pm] Ziko:was there a
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[5:02pm] Ziko:specific reason to chose inda?
[5:02pm] sgardner_:Barry Newtead spent last week in India -- in Delhi, Mumbai and Banagalore -- where he met with Bishakha, I believe also with Achal, with local Wikimedians and with the folks at CIS.
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[5:02pm] Abbasjnr:recriuting for the national program director, right?
[5:02pm] Amgine:Ziko: At a guess, it's the largest English population on the planet.
[5:03pm] jps:google thinks http://216.197.119.113/jobman/publish/article_69602.shtml has more inbound links than the wmf site
[5:03pm] aude:geniice: There is jimbo's role as board member
[5:03pm] sgardner_:Yes, the national program director.
[5:03pm] geniice:aude I think thats covered under relationship with the foundation.
[5:03pm] Jan_eissfeldt:it will be the most likely the most important market in this century Ziko
[5:03pm] Jan_eissfeldt:-the
[5:04pm] Abbasjnr:and how many staff will be in that office?
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[5:04pm] sgardner_:And I will be in India (on holiday) in December, and I believe Erik and Danese may be going there sometime in December too. In which case we may do have some meetings, and obviously we will meet with Wikimedians.
[5:04pm] jps:http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings/National_Program_Director,_India is the official post
[5:04pm] sgardner_:Thanks jps :-)
[5:04pm] Abbasjnr:ok
[5:04pm] sgardner_:I don't know the answer to the question of how many staff there will be -- I don't think Barry has figured it out yet. At this point, we don't know what city we'll be in, either.
[5:04pm] sgardner_:That's where we're at :-)
[5:05pm] Abbasjnr:ok
[5:05pm] sgardner_:Is there anything else specific you'd like to know? (I may or may not know it :-)
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[5:05pm] sgardner_:Yikes! Abbasjnr has quit!
[5:05pm] • britty loves to hear about India progress
[5:05pm] Amgine:I think wikizine.org has quit.
[5:05pm] Ziko:what exactly will be the kind of relationship between the indian chapter and the wmf office?
[5:06pm] • kim_bruning was arguing about safety-valves with Eloquence in a side channel
[5:06pm] dgultekin:Sue is going to answer Ziko, and then we're going to start wrapping up.
[5:06pm] kim_bruning:having read back what geniice said, it's mostly accurate
[5:06pm] dgultekin:Any last minute questions?
[5:06pm] kim_bruning:I'm very interested to hear about india too though ;-)
[5:07pm] kim_bruning:dgultekin, it's a shame these things never last long enough ;-)
[5:07pm] geniice:sgardner_ how far down the list of indian minority languages are we hoping the office will help with?
[5:07pm] kim_bruning:dgultekin, it'd be good if some wmf folks hang out on irc regularly :-)
[5:07pm] aude:At some point further you intend to have MENA office?
[5:07pm] dgultekin:kim: all good things must come to an end
[5:07pm] jps:If GerardM were here he would ask for more support for Indian scripts and languages
[5:07pm] sgardner_:Hi Ziko. Barry and Bishakha and Achal and the chapter are talking about that regularly. I'm not involved in those conversations, but my understanding is that the chapter will do what it thinks it's best at (which I assume is probably editor recruitment, quality projects and so forth), and the Wikimedia Foundation will do the kind of thing staff can do more easily than volunteers -- such as, for example, partnerships with universities
[5:07pm] sgardner_: mobile deals and that kind of thing.
[5:07pm] sgardner_:In general
[5:07pm] kim_bruning:dgultekin, currently we mostly have cary :-)
[5:08pm] StevenW:kim: lots of us, esp. tech folks, are in IRC daily
[5:08pm] kim_bruning:jps, <snigger> He totally would! :-)
[5:08pm] aude:Time frame? Where?
[5:08pm] StevenW:just not always in this channel
[5:08pm] dgultekin:I know a lot of us are on daily
[5:08pm] sgardner_:There is lots of work to be done, and I don't think people are too worried about the chapter and the Foundation tripping over each other. It's a big country, lots to do :-)
[5:08pm] kim_bruning:StevenW, yes, true ... tech folks are always on irc, but I count that as a community ;-)
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[5:08pm] dgultekin:Wikimedia-fundraising, office, Wikimedia
[5:08pm] Ziko:ok :-)
[5:08pm] sgardner_:Katie: yes re MENA. Future, after India & Brazil.
[5:08pm] Abbasjnr joined the chat room.
[5:08pm] kim_bruning:dgultekin, maybe I'm just looking at the wrong times then ^^;;
[5:08pm] britty:what's MENA? /wb Abbas
[5:09pm] Abbasjnr:thanks britty
[5:09pm] dgultekin:We're currently talking about trashing the wmfstaff channel to hang out more in public channels
[5:09pm] aude:Middle east north Africa
[5:09pm] britty:thx aude
[5:09pm] Abbasjnr:Sue, I think that's it. I just wanted to know your status with India
[5:09pm] dgultekin:Or at least making an effort to be on public channels regularly
[5:10pm] sgardner_:(I am not sure we will actually trash the staff channel. We probably won't. But people are talking about hanging out more int he public channels, for sure.)
[5:10pm] sgardner_:Thanks Abbasjnr. Nice to see you :-)
[5:10pm] Abbasjnr:Likewise
[5:10pm] jowen:I am always on the pubic channel when online, I dont chat their regularly but I am there if someone wants me.
[5:10pm] sgardner_:jowen: they chat with you at home! At midnight!
[5:10pm] aude:dgultekin: Please, helps that staff hang out on irc same places volunteers can be
[5:10pm] sgardner_:aude: yes, for sure.
[5:10pm] dgultekin:We're going to start wrapping up here shortly
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[5:11pm] jowen:I will I have had some of my best interactions with our community at 03:00am
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[5:11pm] sgardner_:It's funny. I was kind of expecting we would talk about controversial content today. But no!
[5:11pm] dgultekin:Just to recap, this log will be posted publicly
[5:11pm] sgardner_:jowen: I know you have. I hear stories.
[5:11pm] Abbasjnr:jowen: hahaha
[5:11pm] aude:sgardner_: Eloquence thanks
[5:11pm] sgardner_:Maybe next time we can dedicate some time to controversial content.
[5:11pm] jps: sgardner_: can you get Robert Harris to do an office house?
[5:12pm] jps: office hour*?
[5:12pm] sgardner_: By the way, Robert is posting Part Three of the controversial content study in a few hours.
[5:12pm] britty: for me 3am utc is just the noon
[5:12pm] dgultekin: Eloquence had to step out, but he also sends his thanks to everyone
[5:12pm] sgardner_: Also FYI -- do people know there's a board meeting next Friday in San Francisco?
[5:12pm] sgardner_: So there will probably be an update from that.
[5:12pm] Articles is now known as MrZ-man.
[5:12pm] sgardner_: (soon I mean, next office hours.)
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[5:12pm] geniice:sgardner_ thats the index. I have a bad feeling about this. Do you think he found all the mutated babies pics?
[5:13pm] sgardner_: And yes re ........... jps: I would love to have Robert do office hours.
[5:13pm] jps: me too
[5:13pm] sgardner_: Do you think people want that? He's in town next week, maybe we could do it then.
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[5:13pm] jps: please!
[5:13pm] Ziko:yes, good idea
[5:13pm] britty:agreed
[5:13pm] Ziko:goodbye folks, it is long *after* midnight in the netherlands
[5:13pm] sgardner_:Okay: I will ask James via this chat to set that up :-)
[5:14pm] dgultekin:Night Ziko
[5:14pm] Abbasjnr:Bye
[5:14pm] dgultekin:Bye Abbasjnr
[5:14pm] britty:ziko n8
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[5:14pm] sgardner_:And geni: yes. Robert catalogued I think 1000+ penis pictures. One observation he made is that they are all white.
[5:14pm] sgardner_:And on that note....
[5:14pm] jps:I hope the index doesn't make the news...
[5:14pm] sgardner_:Thanks guys. It is always a pleasure talking with you.
[5:14pm] kim_bruning:we need more non-white penis pictures, obviously
[5:14pm] Ziko:+sgardner: lol ! - bye
[5:14pm] sgardner_:And yes jps: good point.
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[5:14pm] • kim_bruning ducks and hides
[5:14pm] britty: and w/ you, sue:)
[5:14pm] sgardner_: Bye guys :-)
[5:14pm] jps: thanks, Sue 'later
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[5:14pm] kim_bruning:bye sgardner_ thanks!
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[5:15pm] aude:Bye
[5:15pm] • kim_bruning hugs
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[5:15pm] britty kim she has already slipped out :)
[5:15pm] geniice: we did find a black pensis pic mind it's in wikipedia's bad images list
[5:15pm] kim_bruning: oh. dear
[5:15pm] dgultekin:Thanks everyone, this log will be available shortly on Meta
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[5:16pm] britty:dgultekin: thanks in advance
[5:16pm] kim_bruning: thanks dgultekin
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