--- Log opened Fri Dec 03 16:09:58 2010
16:10 < Jon_H_> Our agenda this time only consists of two items - kick starting the blog and checking in with logistics for the January meeting
16:11 < Jon_H_> Can we tackle first how to encourage people to contribute to the blog, and to the wiki for that matter?
16:12 < Jon_H_> Austin, have you had any response to the email you sent to internal-l?
16:12 < Austin> None so far
16:12 < Austin> I'm going to try to prod people on the chapters list, but that involves soliciting help and a little bit of politicking
16:12 < Austin> (I'm not on that list)
16:13 < Jon_H_> Great. How about foundation-l, notwithstanding peculiar contributions from Russia recently?
16:13 < dami_hun> I can forward a message from you if you want, to the chapters list
16:13 < Austin> Nothing from them either
16:13 < anirudh> The chapters people are all present on the internel-l anyway.
16:13 < Austin> Thanks, Bence
16:14 < sj|> hello jon! and austin, anirudh, dami, cbrown
16:14 < Jon_H_> Hi SJ
16:14 < Austin> Maybe you could forward the one I sent to internal-l and foundation-l verbatim, for a start?
16:15 < sj|> it would help to have a more focused ask
16:15 < Jon_H_> How can we focus our ask?
16:15 < sj|> getting a dozen case studies about international distribution of roles
16:16 < dami_hun> Austin: sure, the one about the blog you resent yesterday, and which is the other one?
16:16 < sj|> (our case studies from the strategic planning were rarely focuserd on that aspect of organizational development, though it's one of or defining features; so we looked at Mozilla's incorporation and mission focus but not so much on how it builds firefox local groups and national outreach)
16:17 < Austin> dami: just that one
16:17 < sj|> something everyone can relate to. abstract topics are harder.
16:18 < sj|> perhaps something about handling local press, identifying and funding small projects
16:19 < sj|> things any small org has to do whatever their status.
16:19 < Jon_H_> We definitely want as many case studies of other global organizations as we can get on our wiki http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Peer_organizations
16:20 < Jon_H_> Should we send out email asking for help with the wiki on peer organizations?
16:20 < Jon_H_> SJ, how can we get more participation in our blog? http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Blog
16:21 < Austin> I think an e-mail to the usual suspects might help, although we lose attention if we send too much to the various lists
16:21 < sj|> Jon, I think we're asking people to do something that doesn't come naturally
16:21 < sj|> how they think about 'achieving the vision, mission and strategic goals'
16:21 < sj|> and how they think we can solve issues for 'all Wikimedia entities'
16:22 < sj|> most people could definitely write about their own issues, problems, needs, drama
16:22 < Austin> It's a little bit of an overwhelmingly broad question, like I noted in my e-mail
16:23 < Jon_H_> We have a page on MR wiki for upcoming topics http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Blog_topics
16:23 < sj|> global solutions can fall out of that.
16:23 < Austin> Which is why I said that tackling some small aspect was fine, but I think it still needs a catalyst
16:23 < sj|> austin: right.
16:23 < Jon_H_> If the first one is too broad, what might be some better ones?
16:23 < sj|> what about starting with any group that's started a discussion about chapter status but not completed it?
16:23 < sj|> there's a point person, they've said they are interested in changing their role in some sense
16:24 < Jon_H_> who might that be?
16:24 < sj|> some won't become chapters; all are writing and thinking about their current role, and have some ideas for doing other things -- hence their application or interest
16:24 < sj|> Jon: for each chapter, the person who organizes the request or chapter process...
16:25 < sj|> s/chapter/chapter-request
16:25 < Jon_H_> Thanks, SJ. Austin, can we engage each of these folks?
16:26 < sj|> similarly -- start with a list of everyone who's received a foundation grant. ask the lead for the project, or the person who submitted the proposal (the latter may be better if you want written blog-like output)
16:26 < sj|> and ask them about how they settled on the project they took on, what groups they are working with...
16:26 < Austin> That's a great idea
16:27 < Jon_H_> We're not so much as looking for blog-like output as trying to make it easy for people to contribute ... we want to hear from a broad range of wikimedians ...
16:27 < Jon_H_> that sounds like a great way to engage people
16:28 < sj|> questions for chapters -- what's the best thing about being a chapter? how has that made your lives easier 9compared to the days when you were just a group of wikimedians meeting up and starting projects together
16:28 < Jon_H_> Bence, thanks for your email earlier this week, on this BTW
16:28 < sj|> if you've applied for grants as a chapter, how does that work for you? which projects does it work well for, which does it not?
16:29 < Jon_H_> these are great questions for eliciting concrete answers
16:29 < sj|> [to be topical, we should definitely use the fact that everyone is thinking about fundraising this season to encourage participation]
16:30 < Austin> We still want to get answers to the original question set, though
16:30 < sj|> <nod>
16:30 < Jon_H_> We do
16:30 < sj|> though again, for the holistic 'how do we solve global problems' questions:
16:30 < sj|> we're not going to get individual contributions solving that.
16:30 < sj|> we can form a group of people focused on it, who draw from the individual contributions
16:31 < sj|> but it takes a good bit of time to get into the state of mind to address those questions
16:31 < sj|> (or s/form a group/ask people to form such a group)
16:31 < Jon_H_> Let's get people engaged and build from that
16:32 < Jon_H_> We are beginning to get answers to the original questions from focused interviews
16:32 < Jon_H_> But there are only so many interviews we can do
16:33 < Austin> After actively engaging them one-on-one
16:33 < Austin> So yeah
16:33 < Jon_H_> We need to hear from a much broader range of wikimedians than we can interview
16:33 < Austin> What Jon said :)
16:34 < sj|> alicebot + tts + liveactor.com?
16:34 < Austin> Haha
16:34 < Jon_H_> ?
16:34 < Austin> Sj was making a joke about having automated systems conduct interviews
16:35 < Jon_H_> Aha
16:36 < Jon_H_> It sounds like we should try to reach to range of groups with some more concrete questions ... is that right?
16:36 < sj|> questions for each group that are relevant to them.
16:37 < Jon_H_> sent by email initially?
16:37 < sj|> the press contacts/leads for each country are one front line for our presentatino of our vision to the world
16:38 < Austin> I'm not sure press contacts are necessarily useful targets
16:38 -!- effeietsanders [~eia@wikimedia/effeietsanders] has joined #wikimedia-roles
16:38 < Austin> I know several press contacts who are just avid Wikipedians in that country
16:38 < Austin> And have no role or even interest in local organization
16:38 < Austin> s
16:38 * effeietsanders just hopes he is allowed to join
16:38 < Austin> Of course, welcome Lodewijk :)
16:38 < Jon_H_> hi Lodewijk
16:39 < sj|> <wave>
16:39 < effeietsanders> <hi all>
16:39 < anirudh> hi eff
16:39 -!- lyzzy [~lyzzy@wikimedia/lyzzy] has joined #wikimedia-roles
16:39 < Jon_H_> Hi Alice
16:39 < Austin> Hey Alice
16:39 < lyzzy> hi all, sry iam late
16:40 < sj|> Jon: user talkpage is better
16:40 < Jon_H_> Austin, what can we get done between now and the next call on Dec 17?
16:40 < sj|> almost everyone will get an email alert if that's their preferred feed
16:40 < Austin> Well, we can expand our interview list with grant proposal authors
16:41 < Austin> Which I can probably get from Erik
16:41 < sj|> where do the results of interviews go?
16:41 < Austin> Then start spamming talk pages
16:41 < Austin> There's a page on meta
16:41 < Austin> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Initial_Questions
16:41 < Austin> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_roles_project/Initial_Questions/Responses
16:42 < Jon_H_> How best to ask the questions that SJ suggested - blog, wiki, email?
16:43 < anirudh> Since these questions will be targetted at specific groups, best to use emails or alternatively wiki.
16:43 < Austin> If the responses are going to be useful, either way they should end up on the wiki
16:44 < sj|> right.
16:44 < Jon_H_> Ask by email and post responses to wiki?
16:45 < anirudh> yep
16:45 < sj|> Jon: why not ask on wiki talk pages and post responses there?
16:45 < Austin> I think that might be best
16:45 < Jon_H_> No reason why not at all
16:45 < Austin> Then they can respond inline
16:45 < sj|> that way not only are you asking the person, but anyone else chatting with them can see the discussion is taking place;
16:45 < sj|> people other than the questioner an add clarifications and links, &c,.
16:45 < Jon_H_> Great
16:46 < lyzzy> inline on the tallk oages?
16:46 < lyzzy> p
16:46 < Austin> Alice: that's my thinking, yes
16:46 -!- Asaf [57454837@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.69.72.55] has joined #wikimedia-roles
16:46 < Jon_H_> Hi Asaf
16:46 < Austin> Make it a plain old discussion
16:46 < Austin> Hey Asaf
16:46 < Asaf> Finally!
16:46 < Asaf> Hardware failure at Internet cafe...
16:46 < sj|> howdy alice, asaf :)
16:46 < Asaf> sorry.
16:46 < lyzzy> isn't it a lot of work to bring those answers on diffeerent oages together in the end?
16:46 < Austin> That sucks, glad you could join us
16:47 < Austin> Alice: it would presumably be kept in one section, which we could transclude later
16:47 < sj|> lyzzy - or you could point people to the target page
16:47 < lyzzy> mh, ok. i do not want to start your disvussion again which seems to have a solution ;)
16:47 < sj|> some of them won't want a long section on their talkpage either
16:47 < lyzzy> althoug i am not convinced
16:48 < Austin> sj: there are pros and cons to either
16:49 < sj|> yes. either seems fine
16:49 < effeietsanders> is a wiki really the best tool to collect answers? Sounds to me like it would make more sense to collect them elsewhere and then put them on the wiki nicely layouted and all? (ideally rather quick)
16:49 < sj|> effe: a survey tool you mean?
16:49 < effeietsanders> yes
16:49 < Austin> Dropping a list of questions directly on a talk page puts them there in front of them, and like you say, also draws the attention of others looking at that page
16:49 < Austin> On the other hand, it's hard to manage
16:49 < effeietsanders> (unless there is some kind of form extension?)
16:50 < effeietsanders> or a quizz extension...
16:50 < sj|> effe: yes, there are some form extensions.
16:51 < Austin> Well, that brings up another question: do we want to force people into line-by-line responses?
16:51 < effeietsanders> Austin: do you want to have any chance to be able to put them together? :)
16:51 < Austin> Or do we want to give them some flexibility in responding?
16:51 < Austin> Well, hopefully they won't go crazy :)
16:51 < effeietsanders> if you get 30+ replies... will you be able to draw conclusions from flexible replies?
16:52 < effeietsanders> (if you are, then that is wonderful of course ;-) )
16:52 < Jon_H_> I think right now we have not heard from enough people ...
16:52 < Asaf> maybe encourage respondents to fill out a form, but also offer, as an *alternative* and not just at the end of the form, a free-text box for those in a hurry or otherwise uninclined to fill out forms.
16:53 < Austin> As an aside, it looks like the list of grant applications is on meta, so that's an easy start.
16:53 < effeietsanders> Jon_H_: how has the survey been sent out up to now?
16:53 < Jon_H_> Austin sent out an email to intenal-l
16:54 < anirudh> and foundation-l
16:54 < Jon_H_> It's not really a survey now, more an invitation to participate and share views
16:54 < effeietsanders> you mean the email about the blog post?
16:54 < Jon_H_> yes
16:54 < effeietsanders> ah...
16:55 < sj|> a short list of more specific questions will help
16:55 < effeietsanders> that was one day ago :)
16:55 < effeietsanders> and via email list
16:55 < effeietsanders> so not likely to sort a lot of response
16:55 < Austin> Yes, it was supposed to be a week ago
16:55 < Austin> I was on a plane when I wrote it, and it apparently didn't go out
16:55 < effeietsanders> Austin: yeah, stupid computers :)
16:55 < sj|> for the blog: I wasn't clear on who would be writing the blog posts.
16:56 < sj|> if you start with a few brief, brilliant examples from different people, that would help
16:57 < Jon_H_> SJ,
16:57 < Jon_H_> would you put them on the blog or in the email
16:57 < Jon_H_> <sorry hit return to fast>
16:57 < effeietsanders> hmm, but the question is very specific ("your organization") - how can we have a discussion about that? Or am I missing something here?
16:58 < sj|> Jon: on the blog
16:58 < sj|> (or linked to the blog)
16:58 < sj|> assuming you want people to be contributing there
16:58 < sj|> demonstrate by doing it
16:58 < Jon_H_> Yes
16:58 < sj|> s/doing/showing/
16:59 < sj|> effe: discussion about how different orgs use different approaches.
16:59 < effeietsanders> sj|: but the whole point is that you then need to discuss the whole right?
16:59 < effeietsanders> how they fit together
16:59 < sj|> one org might set up a succession plan for their treasurer in one way, others might be considering how to set it up for their own org.
17:00 < sj|> it's much easier for most people to discuss a piece at a time than the whole
17:00 < Jon_H_> Quick agenda check ... people will have to start to leave soon ... it would be great to agree what we can do between now and our next chat on 17 Dec
17:00 < effeietsanders> ehm, is succession for treasurer about "What role do you see for you and your organization in achieving the vision, mission and strategic goals?" ?
17:00 < effeietsanders> because if it is, I totally misunderstood the querstion :)
17:00 < sj|> there are some people who like discussing the whole, but not most. forcing everyone to do that because we want that as one of the /outputs/ will just limit who contributes at all.
17:01 < effeietsanders> sj|: I was talking about the blog post, and how to make it possible to have useful discussion coming from that
17:01 < Asaf> sj++
17:02 < sj|> effe: ok. we were discussing how to stimulate participation before you joined. and how one way might be to focus on less lofty, more specific questions.
17:02 < Asaf> we should seek to allow maximal participation by not bundling questions together in a mandatory way.
17:02 < effeietsanders> I do agree we should cut up the questions and topics, I just am not sure this line of questions is ideal to put up directly for public discussion
17:02 < sj|> I don't knowabout that particular topic.
17:02 < effeietsanders> I think it is good indeed to have both people filling in a form, and have people discussing specific questions yes
17:03 < Asaf> But I do think the "sharing the vision" question is quite important: it is a way to discover surprise co-alignments in organizations we don't know about, or didn't know they shared our vision in some way.
17:04 < sj|> yes
17:04 -!- delphine [~notafish@unaffiliated/delphine] has joined #wikimedia-roles
17:04 < Jon_H_> hi Delphine
17:04 < delphine> hi
17:05 < Asaf> bonjour, notafish!
17:05 < Austin> Hey Del
17:05 < delphine> I suppose I'm late?
17:05 < delphine> This 15 UTC thing is just totally not practical :)
17:06 < Austin> Does anyone actually have to leave?
17:06 < Austin> Because we try to keep these things to an hour, but I think we're actually being productive.
17:06 < Austin> That said, it can't drag on indefinitely, so if everyone's staying we should set a time. :)
17:06 < sj|> I'm in a dueling meeting & afk, but agreed - this is good
17:07 < Jon_H_> 1630 UTC?
17:07 < Austin> Another ~20m, I'm fine with that
17:07 < Jon_H_> This is a good discussion
17:08 < delphine> I'm kind of not really here. Can't let a 3 year a=old alone romaning about the house ;)
17:08 < delphine> *roaming
17:08 < Asaf> Jon/Austin: can you summarize very briefly the road ahead? I'm a little confused about the practical steps planned.
17:09 < Asaf> romaning can be dangerous too!
17:09 < Jon_H_> Good question Asaf
17:09 < delphine> :P
17:09 < Austin> Well, we're trying to decide on the concrete stuff we can accomplish before the next meeting
17:09 < Austin> For sure, getting responses to the initial questions is the current focus
17:10 < Austin> But that seems to be opening up a lot of side questions, which is great too :)
17:11 -!- lyzzy [~lyzzy@wikimedia/lyzzy] has quit [Quit: lyzzy]
17:11 < effeietsanders> would it be good to approach specific individuals?
17:11 < effeietsanders> I recall a list of people whose opinion we definitely wanted was put together
17:12 < Jon_H_> We are interviewing a small number of people one by one
17:12 < Asaf> okay, and is there a concrete task list that we're trying to pick realistic tasks out of, or do we only have goals and are trying to deduce tasks from them?
17:12 < Austin> The latter
17:12 < Austin> (For the most part)
17:12 < effeietsanders> at least sending direct emails to all chapters and people on that list could make sense?
17:12 < Asaf> austin: I see. And--
17:12 < Asaf> what effe said.
17:12 < Jon_H_> Asaf, there are two tracks right now ... one is to interview people ... the other is to encourage participation on the wiki
17:14 < Jon_H_> The interview list is at http://movementroles.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interviews
17:15 < Jon_H_> It would be great if we could agree a concrete task list to encourage participation on the wiki
17:15 < Jon_H_> We have a cornucopia of ideas from this chat
17:16 < Jon_H_> Who can help Austin and I between now and the next chat on 17 Dec?
17:17 < Jon_H_> Austin, what do you think we can accomplish between now and then?
17:17 -!- Asaf [57454837@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.69.72.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
17:18 < Austin> We can individually ping the groups of people we were talking about earlier; notably, the grant applicants.
17:18 < Austin> Try to ping more individual chapter members
17:19 < delphine> I can help with pinging individual chapters members
17:19 < Austin> (Which I've been doing, for the ones I know personally)
17:19 < delphine> (if that's what's needed, I'm not sure I get the whol epicture here)
17:19 < Jon_H_> Thanks Delphine
17:19 < Jon_H_> Yes, we are trying to broaden participation
17:19 < Jon_H_> I can step up the interviewing ... Austin, can you coordinate the ping campaign?
17:20 < anirudh> If the list of interview questions has been finalized, I'd like to start following-up on those with a few of the listed individuals.
17:20 < anirudh> Initial questions
17:20 < Jon_H_> Anirudh, that list of questions is finalized
17:21 < Austin> Yeah, I'll summarize the ping campaign on the list
17:21 < Jon_H_> I'm already using the questions in interviews
17:21 < Jon_H_> Anirudh, feel free to start to interview
17:22 < anirudh> thank you.
17:24 < Jon_H_> BTW, we we also wanted to check in on the logistics for the meeting in January in Frankfurt ... if anyone has any issues, please let us know ... SJ, will you be able to join us?
17:24 < Austin> Jon: Sj confirmed the other day; you might not have seen my e-mail
17:24 < Jon_H_> Great news1
17:25 < Jon_H_> Sounds like we will have a full house in Frankfurt. :-)
17:25 < Austin> I was glad to see everyone on the original working group confirmed, plus some of you great folks here
17:25 < delphine> don't forget your mittens
17:25 < delphine> it's -6 here :P
17:25 < Austin> Man, it's snowing here
17:25 < Austin> I went and bought a couple new sweaters today
17:26 < Jon_H_> Or hat for those us follically challenged
17:26 < effeietsanders> delphine: that is just normal hae
17:26 < anirudh> So, January is like ultra-freezing cold?
17:26 < Austin> Jon: I have plenty of folicles, and I'm bringing a hat too
17:26 < Austin> anirudh: not ultra-freezing, just regular freezing
17:26 < delphine> (and snowing, of course)
17:26 < Austin> Pack layers :)
17:27 < delphine> yeah, pack layers
17:27 < anirudh> heh okay. the lowest temperature over here in January will never go under 12 C
17:27 < Jon_H_> And keep your extremities covered
17:27 < delphine> anyone arriving really early should tell me, I might even be able to pick them at the airport ;)
17:27 < effeietsanders> Jon_H_: my nose?
17:28 < Jon_H_> Indeed
17:28 < effeietsanders> hmm, is a snowball fight part of the program?
17:28 < Jon_H_> Could generate a whole new set of insights
17:28 < Austin> It could be
17:29 < anirudh> http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,669936,00.html
17:29 < anirudh> ze Germans have a bad reputation.
17:29 < Austin> anirudh: a good coat would be good, but layering sweaters and such will probably suffice; anyway, the meeting venue and hotel will most likely be in the same place, so you won't have to trek through miles of snow or anything
17:29 < anirudh> thanks.
17:30 < Jon_H_> Quick time check ... we said we would finish by 1630, and we are almost there. Thanks for the offers of help on encouraging participation on the web. Any more ideas or offers?
17:35 < Austin> I guess that's it. :)
17:36 < Jon_H_> Looking forward to our next chat in 2 wks
