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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Bahrani Arabic

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submitted verification final decision

This proposal has been rejected.
While this request has technically been rejected, in reality this is a request that has been sitting open or on hold for a long time with little evidence of a community coming together to build a project. If a community comes together in the future and makes a new request, LangCom would consider that new request without prejudice.

A committee member provided the following comment:

Per Ethnologue, attitude towards the language among the native population is negative. Waiting for the substantial native population to stand behind the project. --Millosh (talk) 04:50, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No further progress has been made on this test. Closing request as stale, but test will remain available at Incubator. LangCom will entertain a new request in the future if a community appears. For LangCom: StevenJ81 (talk) 16:13, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code abv (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Bahrani Language name in English
Language name العربية البحرانية Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q56576 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality no indication Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL abv.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name Wikipédia "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Discussion

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Comments/Questions

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I think the decision to approve should be based on consensus among linguists within scientific community, as can be extrapolated from available literature. I have increasingly heard the varieties of Arabic referred to as languages rather than dialects, and I'm partial to the former definition. Like in many other cases, such as with French and Chinese, quite divergent varieties are designated as dialects when, in fact, they qualify as separate languages. Thus, I feel it is important to consult whatever academic literature we can find on this topic, especially more recent ones.

Moreover, as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_Arabic#Classification, Bahrani seems to be classed as a subvariety of Peninsular Arabic. There have been other users who have commented on the similarity between Bahrani and Gulfite, so we should at least determine how similar Bahrani is to Gulfite and all other Peninsular varieties, and how similar the various Peninsular varieties are to each other. If scientific consensus regards it as markedly divergent enough, then I would support the creation of a Bahrani Wikipedia. Otherwise, if the differences are to few/small, I'd rather we create a Peninsular Arabic Wikipedia, which would also encompass a much larger group of people and thus, potential readers. Nederbörd~enwiki (talk) 10:33, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support

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Bahrani Arabic has nearly 310,000 million native speakers in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iraq and Iran. There are many books written in Bahrani, like (الجمرات الودية) by Mulla Atiah al-Jamri. (Click here for more information) -- Szyizm 18:52, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean 310,000 native speakers, not 310,000 million. Jafeluv 09:12, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am not even sure what this "institute" means, or its mandate. Interestingly, it does not list BRITISH ENGLISH and AMERICAN ENGLISH as separate languages, despite having distinct pronunciation and spelling. On the other hand, it lists several Arabic dialects (Bahrani, desert, ...) as separate languages. Hhhhmmmm. Still . عمرو بن كلثوم 02:34, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Spelling differences do not make different languages, and the pronunciation is only slightly different compared to other languages. British and American English cannot be considered separate languages. I do not know Arabic, but I am sure there will be more difference between standard Arabic and its dialects. And see SIL International for more info about the institute. We follow their standard to decide what is a language (in the broader sense) and what isn't. SPQRobin (talk) 11:31, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
American is considered a separate language by many specialists and authorities. There has been a book on this and in the states many prestigious universities consider it a separate language (e.g. San Diego State University American Language institute). Just google "American language". Back to our issue here, Bahraini to Arabic is like Texas dialect to Northeastern English. عمرو بن كلثوم 13:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just like spelling differences do not make different languages, so do names neither make different languages (American or English, what's in a name?). In addition, their introduction says "English language". SPQRobin (talk) 17:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since there are spelling differences and Ethnologue shows that some people are embarrassed by it, then obviously it seems to be a language to me worth reviving, sounds like a situation similar to the Scots language and English in the UK.Luciferwildcat (talk) 03:22, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Many of those arguing against a Bahraini Arabic Wikipedia seem to be opposed to the idea of having a Wikipedia for what is being called a regional 'dialect' in addition to the overall Arabic Wikipedia. The various 'dialects' of Arabic are actually quite divergent and, depending on the definition you use, could qualify as distinct languages (in terms of not being mutually intelligible). Language use and the issue of dialect-vs-standard are very contentious in the Arab world, and unfortunately non-Arabs frequently adopt ideological positions regarding Arabic and its use without realizing. There is indeed a long tradition of writing in most of the Arabic 'dialects', including Egyptian, Levantine, Bahraini, as well as in other Gulf dialects, and it shouldn't be the job of wikipedians to decide which 'dialects' qualify for extending their written traditions to Wikipedia and which don't. Furthermore, there is already a quite active Egyptian Arabic (masry) Wikipedia. The Bahraini Wikipedia would be substantially different from masry in terms of phonology, grammar and lexicon.
Something merged from Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Bahrani (merged by Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:45, 25 January 2017 (UTC))[reply]

Bahrani dialect has borrowed some vocabulary from Persian, Hindi and more recently from English, and It's very different than Standard Arabic.

  • from Hindi: bānka 'ceiling fan'
  • from Hindi: sōmān 'equipment'
  • from English: lētar 'lighter'

Many Bahrani people can't understand Standard Arabic and they don't benefit from Arabic Wikipedia. 77.69.173.14 14:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

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  • Oppose -- If we are going to create an individual Wikipedia for every Arabic dialect then 10% of all Wikipedias will be for the Arabic dialects. There is no a real need for this, because the Arabic dialects do not have an essential difference in grammar from the Arabic language, it is just a slight difference in the pronunciation of some words. the standard Arabic is the official language for all of gulf countries, and it is the language of eduction in these countries, in addition to the fact that the dialects of these countries differs slightly from each other. so, even if the population of these countries numbers some tens of millions, this is not an enough reason to create an individual Wikipedia for their dialects --عباد ديرانية 16:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC).[reply]
  • Oh god no! -- I oppose all these proposals for Arabic dialects. It made no sense to create a Masry wiki. Now where getting Bahrani Nationals trying to get their wiki?! No! It's like saying we need a project for American English, or Belgian Standard Dutch. Those "languages" are just dialects, and so is Bahrani Arabic.

Insteat of making a wikipedia for every country, why dont you make a wikipedia for the whole golf region so you have more people participating and more articles>

basiclly we shoulkd start off with 4 wikpedias for middle east and north africa

1- maghribi for north african countries 1- Egyptian - is already made 2- shami levent countires 3- khaligi golf countries

and then we may extend and make for specific sub countries if they really are different to make their own language

--216.249.0.130 17:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose -- According to third eligibility criteria which states "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects". This rule applies to the "Bahrani Arabic dialect" that could coexist on a more general wiki (Arabic Wikipedia). In fact there are a number of Bahranis users who are active or been active in the Arabic Wikipedia. In addition, the number of native speakers of this Arabic dialect is not 310,000 million speakers as claimed; the right number is only 310 thousand speaker. Another reason for opposing this proposal is the fact that there is only one enthusiastic user (who is the applier by the way) about this new project. --Osa osa 5 02:14, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I refused this because the official language is Arabic in Bahrain. 79.112.101.152 07:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose -- The spoken language of Bahrain is no different from other Arabic dialects in Iraq, Arabia or Iran coastal areas. It is to Arabic like Provenςal to French. In addition, there is no written pieces in this dialect, and I doubt any contribution to such a wiki 131.104.122.149 15:43, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose of course oppose!! since when bahrani is a written language!? the official language in bahrain is Arabic, and has been since more than a thousand years! at least the most common and used language if there was nothing called an "offical language" back then, i doubt any contributions to such wiki-- bassem788Bassem788 19:49, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose -- Bahrain historically and geographically is part of the Arab World, Arabia in particular. Bahrainis speak a dialect of Arabic that is very close to the ones spoken in neighboring countries such as Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia ( Eastern Region ). They don't speak a distinct language from their neighbors and they never did, why should their dialect be introduced as a Wikipedia Language?!

  • Oppose, I don't think that a new wikipedia for a dialect of 310,000 native speakers will be useful even for them as the offical language for bahrain is the arabic language. also, I think it will not find enough active users to continue. Statistically, after several years in wikipedia arabic (which is the offical language in bahrain) while there is more than 340 million arabic speakers, only 2200 active users in arabic wikipedia, so how many active users will be in the Bahrani Arabic wikipedia? and for how long it will continue?!!!!. أبو حمزة 21:10, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Besides the fact that Bahraini is just another dialect of Arabic, I doubt the presence of substantial support for such a wiki. I am not sure about the significance or nature of the book mentioned by the user suggesting this project. Is it really written in a spoken dialect? I would not even know how to write in this dialect, although I am a native Arabic speaker and fully understand the dialect. Having said this, this project will find no contributions and will fail if ever started. عمرو بن كلثوم 13:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose first of all there is no bahraini languege exisiting in the world , only there is bhraini accent , secondly if we are going in this way we should be ready to creating 100 wikipedia because every place in arabic country has accent after that every body come to say this languege , finally if its creat its be farce ali32liver 12:20, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • No! This is going to be a long argument. Here's the first argument: Bahrani Arabic is just another DIALECT of Standard Arabic. There are differences between American and British English, Mexican and Castillian Spanish, Belgian French and Parisian French and Austrian Standard German and German Standard German, but do we really need wikis for those dialects? No. Bahrani Arabic can be compared to let's say Moroccan Arabic and Syrian Arabic (except the accent of course). Second, there is a serious lack of interest in this project. Most Bahranis are contributing to the Standard Arabic Wikipedia. Essentially all these proposals for separate Wikipedias in Arabic dialects are useless since you can get the same content in Standard Arabic. Compare Moldovan to Romanian. Moldovan and Romanian are EXACTLY THE SAME (with the exception of a different accent and in Transnistria a different script). In the old "Moldovan" Wikipedia, the articles were the same as many old 2006 Romanian articles, but in Cyrillic. --Speedy Gonzalez 03:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not very good idea. Oppose --Midnight Green 07:37, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose --U.Steele 21:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I had enough with dialects getting their own Wikipedia. Remember, all English speakers are using the English Wikipedia. The Arabic Wikipedia is the Wikipedia the Bahrainis need. Supporters of this Wikipedia proposal, I suggest you should go to the Arabic Wikipedia and collaborate (not a personal attack, just a suggestion). This Arabic-language split is already about to happen. This is not the Belarusian Wikipedia community, which have two Wikis. I'm tired of this "nonsense" (again, not a personal attack, as I made the word more deceptive by using quotation marks). Hillcrest98 (talk) 02:41, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose. Bahrani Arabic is simply Gulf Arabic, which itself is not so different than Modern Standard Arabic besides a higher portion of Persian loanwords and some phonological differences. Please remember that even in the Palestinian market most signs are in the MSA form. We do not need another Wikipedia for any dialect other than those who are extremely different such as the Moroccan dialect.
  • Oppose. This isn't even a language
Any Arabic Slang Language is not a formal human language, it is slang ! having a Wikipedia in a slang Arabic, will lead for many problems, the main leading one : more Arab-speaking wikipedians will be starting more wikipedias in other slang dialects, therefore we shall have someday in the future more than 30 Wikipedia's in Slang dialects ! each Arab speaker would want to start a Wikipedia of his own dialect ! and we should keep in mind, that not only regional states have their own dialects, the cities within those countries and states have more specific slang's and dialects, and this will make the true value of Wikipedia drop down when it will be filled with slang's !

2. how valid is a Slang Dialect : lets not forget it is a dialect : meaning there is total biding code to how to spell and write or read ! a dialect differs from a man to another ! for example in slang English : the word The : is turned into da and de ! as also it is a slang : a slang doesnt have a biding grammar or what so ever ! it is just what goes with the mouth ! a slang is saying what you feel your mouth can easily say ! this is how a slang develops ! and another thing is that in slang we might have sounds that do not exist in the formal language : for example in many slang arabic's we have the sound /g/ and there is no specific way to express this sound ! sometimes they use the Farsi letters sometimes else, here are four letters that all represent /g/ in slang arabic's :چ ڠ گ ڇ, and there are many more !

3. today we have a Wikipedia in a slang non-grammatical nor organized language, so why cant we have a Wikipedia in lolcat language, it already translated the bible : teh lolcat spek iz organizd !

4. if you accept to have a wikipedia in a slang language of a regional state, this means you now need to have a Wikipedia to each state in the US at least, having Wikipedia Masri, is a huge deal of turning Wikipedia into politically divided than nations and cultures contributing together, DO NOT TURN WIKIPEDIA INTO A POLITICAL DIVISION !

5. in All Arab & Algerian Universities, (and rest of the world), a scientific report - scientific page, in a slang dialect, even their own slang, is not acceptable and that report/page will never be regarded as true or even scientific unless in a formal Language like Formal Arabic Language !

6. having Wikipedia in this slang language or any other will lower the validity and the standards of Wikipedia : how would something valid/true/scientific and reliable as Wikipedia have a SLANG language, there is not scientific family in the world that would recognize a slang as a valid way to express science and studying !

7.when we have this Wikipedia & many others, that is already leading to more Wikipedias in other Arabic SLANG Dialects, the Arab-speaking Developers and editors will be divided in more than 30 Wikipedia in stead of all of them developing the one true formal language Arabic Wikipedia, thus they are destroying and corrupting in stead of uniting and building wikipedia, and expanding Wikipedia Arabic

8. treating Slang Arabic as equal for other formal Languages is a discrimination against the other slang-speakers of the world, thus for example we must also have Slang Arabic English, it is as the same level as Egyptian Arabic Slang, or Algerian or Bahrani Arabic

9. HAVING A WIKIPEDIA IN A SLANG IS STUPIDITY !

10. IT IS NOT A LANGUAGE , WIKIPEDIA IS GETTING FILLED WITH SLANG ARABICS, AND ARABS HAVE MANY SLANGS, THUS ARABIC SLANG WIKIPEDIA WILL NEVER END

and so I've presented my statement, with Logic and reasoning ! please respect and don not vandalize ! as I stress on you understanding #1 & #2 !

Ahmad Masalha !

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asm17hawkeye (talk)


  • Oppose The Masry Arabic page is enough for individual dialects. As an Iraqi without prior knowledge of Egyptian Arabic, and still learning Standard (American born and raised) I find Masry to be easy to read with even a limited Standard Arabic vocabulary. As I said, one dialect is enough. It may even be too much. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 98.177.247.139 (talk)
  • Oppose --Alaa :)..! 11:45, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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