Wikimedia Meta-Wiki

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Kamassian

< Requests for new languages
​
submitted verification final decision

This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

A committee member provided the following comment:

This request was rejected because it was made by a user who does not speak any Kamassian, and created pages in a fake Kamassian on Incubator. It is left here as a documentation of the user's frivolous activities. The rejection of this request is without prejudice to any new request, which Kamassian speakers would be very welcome to create at Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Kamassian 2. --MF-W 04:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code xas (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Kamassian Language name in English
Language name калмажи шəкə Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q35991 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality no indication Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL xas.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name википедия "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

edit

Kamassian is an Uralic language which died in 1989, but because this language is documented there are a few people (including me) who want to revive it and. Even though this is not yet large a, Wikipedia would help it just like other dead Uralic languages got a wikipedia incubator such as Livonian or near dead Uralic languages like Votic. I love editing wikipedia for smaller languages and i can make many articles. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 07:15, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

edit

Vote Pro. It is not the first initiative of the extinct Uralic language revival. Social activities on some of dormant Sami languages and Livonic have its success (perhaps not in the Wiki-environment, but in the whole life). As I can see, this Kamassian project has got more chances for development than, for instance, all other Samodiy languages Wikipedias in Incubator. As I know Southern Selkup, I'm going to do my best with writing articles in Kamassian little by little. Grigoriy Korotkih (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No dormant Sami languages have been revived on Wiki or off. Some Sami languages that still have native speakers are being revitalized but that has nothing to do with Kamassian, which has not a single native speaker left. -Yupik (talk) 05:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no difference between Kamassian from the one hand and Tundra Enets, Ket and Nganasan from the other hand. Any speakers have never written even a word. There don't exist points why Kamassian differs. Especially in case when a team ready to create articles appeared. Grigoriy Korotkih (talk) 13:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. -Yupik (talk) 16:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No. Considering that the Samoyedic languages that actually do have native speakers left are not prospering in the incubator, there is no likelihood that the Kamassian incubator project will be successful and actually be in native Kamassian instead of a bastardized version with heavy borrowing from Russian. One only has to look at the whole debacle of the Scots Wikipedia to see just how wrong good intentions can go. -Yupik (talk) 05:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Kamassian language though is documented and there are more than enough resources to be fluent. Also Kamassian is already very russified by grammar and vocab, secondly i am not even a Russian native but my native language is related to Kamassian, thus i doubt there will be extra russian influence from my articles. A good example of a revived Uralic language without native speakers is Livonian, and the livonian wiki grew alot --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 06:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per [1], I'm afraid that your language isn't eligible for any Wikimedia sites (except Wikisource), and maybe more suitable for a Wikia site. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:07, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support, Kamassian needs to be revived and the livonian wiki also prospered even though it has no native speakers Faakina (talk) 07:20, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Per [2],) The comments there were very mean, and calling a project which was worked for many hours a ”mockery”, is just being mean. also i do not work on the nenets incubator i only made 2 pages there and i did not make the main interface. For the extra russian loans in kamassian are small in number because we know more than 1600 words. Then please give it a chance before deleting it all, or even if this gets rejected please do not delete all the pages and leave it like the Enets wikiincubator which still exists but is rejected as a project. Out of the words which i have used in the kamassian articles, only ~4 were extra loans from russian which were not documented. Please do not delete the attempt before it even has been worked on ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 07:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct your erroneous claim of "wikipedia admins". I am one person and I am not an admin on here or on Meta. No one else is responsible for my opinion but me. -Yupik (talk) 16:57, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i was not reffering to you but [3] (link here), you are right though that it was not plural and i fixed it, also added the link there so no misunderstanding. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 17:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I swear me an some other people involved can make it to up to 300 pages, maybe even to 400! If we are just given a chance to do it it would then be the largest samoyed wikipedia in incubator.--ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 07:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki can succeed and many people want to contribute.

I also notice there are some wikis without a request, can the kamassian wiki stay in the incubator in a similar fashion as the nganasan incubator, which has pages in there but has no request or as the enets one is rejected but the wiki pages still exist ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 09:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I vote pro, because I feel that we should support any aspiration to extinct language revival. Samoyedic languages are in very bad condition now, and Kamassian wikipedia will be a step towards improving situation. Comment left by Kaarkemhveel


Main points against this and my attempts at answering it:

  • Point 1: Not enough editors, answer: Many people want to contribute to this.
  • Point 2: Not the same as old Kamassian with Russian loans. answer: Russian loans are mainly only geographical or science related, also if kamassian survived they would have most likely loaned them from Russian anyways. I doubt Kamassians had a word for "basqueland" or "orkney". All the main vocab is documented and we know more than 1600 words, though with using some grammatical endings, we can get close to 1900 Kamassian words.
  • Point 3: Scots wikipedia example: The scots wiki problem was caused by people thinking they don't have to study grammar because the language was so close to their native language. Though with Kamassian no language is close enough that you can understand it without studying, though Selkup is the closest relative they can't understand each other.

Anyways if this gets rejected (or pages deleted) i am ready to move to wikisource --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

if this language however doesn't fit the wikipedia rules, i think its possible to move to wikisource for now. i don't want to break the rules either, but i dont want another mean answer like this https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/langcom/2020-November/002717.html --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 18:18, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, you can't move that to Wikisource, Wikisource is for hosting pre-existing texts, not for creating new ones. - Also, it's not like this language doesn't fit the wikipedia rules, it's that we don't want projects pretending to be Kamassian which are really Russian with some Kamassian words. --MF-W 19:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i read that wikisource allows translations, and i could have translated important texts (such as famous bible passages). and as i told you almost all extra russian words are related to geography or science or things that came after Kamassian died, almost all the words used come from Kai Donners Kamassisches Wörterbuch nebst Sprachproben und Hauptzügen der Grammatik, 100% (not even a single tip of grammar is outside of the book) of the grammar is from the book and ~95-90% (depends on the topic) of vocab, almost all of the main vocab is documented, as i said 1600+ base words and using grammatical endings you can make it to ~1900 words, but many words in Kamassian have multiple meanings such as the word "baar" which can mean: all, whole or most, or the word "malji" which can mean little, small, tiny, alone, only. I assure you its not just Russian with some Kamas words mixed, You should take a look at the book where most of Kamassian is documented, to see for yourself how much is documented. click here, there is also a smaller english grammar book and if its needed i can link here, though Kamassian already when it was being documented was very russified (also turkified), and words such as "saamyj, ili, i, da, dorova, moožet" were already part of Kamassian when it was documented. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2020 (UTC) by move to wikisource i ment move efforts there, such as translating texts --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 19:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for suggesting I look at that book. I have a paper copy of it sitting not 1 metre from me and a digital copy too. That book is not written in the alphabet you're using and the version of the alphabet being used is not the version from the Kamassian-Russian dictionary online either. As far as I know, Künnap never used Cyrillic to write Kamassian, even when writing in Russian. You write in the English Wikipedia article that the word for river is 'дьаға' in Kamassian, Künnap, who has studied the language and is a professional linguist writes it as 'Ʒ́аγа'. Who has decided that it is written дьаға in extended Cyrillic? -Yupik (talk) 21:13, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On a side note, the tables that have been added to the English Wikipedia article about the language have not been properly cited, making them copyvios since they have been taken directly out of Donner's book. -Yupik (talk) 21:25, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did try to say the same thing with different words as donner so it wouod not be copyrightable, i can try to fix the English wiki more so its not as much of copying from there. But on the alphabet it is basicaly the same as the ones used in the Russian dictionaries. The thing is the word for river d’aɣa could also be spelled with dž instead of d’. But i used d’ because donners book had d’. Also künnap used the UPA which too many people can’t read ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 06:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you want the English wiki can be changed to the IPA :) ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 06:02, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]


So after the drama about profiles will this be deleted or not, or will this just be rejected but pages left like the enets one, and i assure you this is not just Russian with some Kamassian words, me and others would love to contribute, but can we? --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 14:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, you can't. You have shown multiple times now that you don't know any of the small languages you are claiming to want to help. You have also knowingly used multiple accounts to push up your numbers, and are now upset that you have been caught. So you're claiming nonsense like "I wanted a fresh start", when you still used them after the supposed fresh starts, or when these accounts you allegedly left behind for fresh starts did exactly the same things as you did in subsequent accounts. You canvassed people into supporting your dubious activities. All of that needs to stop. --MF-W 15:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]


My last words here: i didn't know that having many profiles is banned and my motivation was not for the projects to seem larger, i won't edit again though i got blocked anyways. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 10:02, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest to just reject this RFL based on this comment. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:38, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kamassian&oldid=22565892"