Wikimedia Meta-Wiki

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Ukrainian Latin

< Requests for new languages

Ukrainian Latin Wikipedia

edit
submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

there is only one wikipedia per language GerardM 11:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal summary
  • Language details: Ukrainian Latynka (Ukrajinśka Latynka ukr ISO 639-3)
  • Editing community: PaoloLaGotto (NP)
    List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your
    name if you are a native speaker of this language.
  • Relevant pages: development wiki project
  • External links:
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.

Western Diaspora Ukrainian to be written with the Latin Alphabet

edit

Diaspora Ukrainians speak a different dialect of Ukrainian, still untouched by the years of Soviet influence. Many younger Ukrainians use various Latin versions for writing. Some Polonized Ukrainians use a Polish Abecadlo for writing. Also, different words are sometimes used because of Western influence on Ukrainian. There were two different versions of the Latynka, Josyp Lozynski's (resembles the Polish alphabet) and Jozef Jireček's (resembles the Czech and Slovak alphabets). This Latynka Wikipedia is to be written in the more recent version by Jozef Jireček with standardized orthographic rules. See Links for PDF which gives a brief introduction to the regulations.

Western Diaspora Ukrainian is a Ukrainian dialect with Portuguese, English, French, Spanish, or Western European influences. Even though this Ukrainian dialect tries to stick with recent changes that have been made in Ukrainian, it still uses a bigger Latin-Polish vocabulary.

Different from Latinized Russian, which is only a transliteration

edit

Ukrainian actually has a history of when the Latin alphabet was used. It is still used by some. This would encourage more people to use it. So it is not just the same idea as the one used for Latinized Russian, which has no orthography for the Latin alphabet. It was going to appear more like a transliterated version of Russian, than an actual Latinized Russian Wikipedia. There are a set of orthographic rules. Not like the examples shown in Latinized Russian, where there were several different ways of writing one word.

English Diaspora Ukrainian Standard Ukrainian
European Union Evropeiśka Unija - Европейська Унія Європейський Союз
Europe Evropa - Европа Європа - Jevropa
head scarf fustka - фустка хустка
How are you? Jak śa maješ - Як ся маєш? Як справи?
helicopter halikopter вертоліт, but also гелікоптер
spicy pikantný from Spanish гострий but also пікантний
déjà vu deža viu дежа вю
budget biudžet бюджет
bureau biuro Polish spelling бюро Russian spelling
residency rezydencija - резиденція місце проживання
ambulance ambulansa - амбуланса швидка допомога
project projekt - проєкт проект - proekt

Ukrainian is different in various parts of the world. The Latin alphabet was used in various times of Ukrainian History. And since many Western Ukrainians already are familiar with the Latin script, there should be a Latin Ukrainian Wikipedia.

Many Diaspora Ukrainians have contributed many words to the Ukrainian language. Clearly, as the examples above show, most words were borrowed from Polish or Czech.

Note, this is not a proposal for a Latin transliteration Wikipedia for Ukrainian, but a Ukrainian Latynka Wikipedia, that uses a western vocabulary and the vocabulary of the Ukrainian Diaspora, written with a alphabet that most Diaspora Ukrainian use, maybe not necessarily for Ukrainian, but for other languages that they speak in the countries of their residence.

Latin Ukrainian Cyrillic Ukrainian
Šče ne vmerla Ukrajiny
Šče ne vmerla Ukrajiny i slava, i voľa,
Šče nam, bratťa molodiji, usmichneťśa doľa.
Zhynuť naši vorižeńky, jak rosa na sonci.
Zapanujem i my, bratťa, u svojij storonci.
Dušu j tilo my položym za našu svobodu,
I pokažem, ščo my, bratťa, kozaćkoho rodu.
Ще не вмерла України
Ще не вмерла України і слава і воля,
Ще нам, браття-молодії, усміхнеться доля.
Згинуть наші вороженьки, як роса на сонці,
Запануєм і ми, браття, у своїй сторонці.
Душу й тіло ми положим за нашу свободу
І покажем, що ми, браття, козацького роду.

Benefits

edit

Having spoken with many Ukrainians about such a topic, there were various reactions. But mostly they were interested in the subject. Some Ukrainians like the idea of having a Latin and Cyrillic alphabet side by side to use whenever one is easier at that moment. Similar to the situation in Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Some Ukrainians who reside in Ukraine, have also mentioned when attempting to learn another language (that uses the Latin alphabet), it is at times difficult for them to grasp a hold on to the Latin alphabet, since it is not one they are accustomed to. But if there would be something that they could use to encourage the use of the Latin alphabet, particularly when writing or reading Ukrainian, it would make it easier to get accustomed to.

This would also help Latin Ukrainian become a more literary variant, equal to Cyrillic Ukrainian and possibly help standardize it, more than it has already been. So that, Ukrainian will not need a transliteration system, but will already have a Latin alphabet not only for transliterating into all languages, not only English (current system only works with English) but to actually be used in newspapers, magazines, travel documents for travelers with foreign names that may have trouble cyrillicizing them into Ukrainian, or Ukrainians trying to latinize their names into other languages.

Orthography

edit

There is a standardized orthography for writing Ukrainian with the Latin alphabet which makes Ukrainian appear more "European" so to speak. It is based on Polish, Czech, Croatian and Belarusian Lacinka orthographic regulations. It takes Ukrainian orthography back to where it would have ended up today, if Ukrainian were to still be written with the Latin Alphabet that was imposed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Other versions are just mere transliterations, but this orthography uses standardized regulations to write Ukrainian.

The conversation concerning Latinized Russian did not pass, because it was more of way to transliterate Russian. The Ukrainian Latin Alphabet is different, because it is still used today. There are several if not many articles using the Latynka, not a transliteration system. This quote is from the discussion concerning Latinized Russian:

Viel mittelasian Sprachen verändert ihre Schriften nach Latinisch (anfangt von Türkisch). Die Reihe an Slawischen zur Zeit. Übertritt nach latinisch Schrift wird beitragen, daß europisch und amerikanisch Menschen verstehen besser slawischen Sprachen. Latinisch Schrift ist Fortschritt, Zukunft und Zivilisation. --Deutscher Friedensstifter 19:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Bother to explain why you write your commments in completely broken German? --Johannes Rohr 23:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC) Here the translation of this comment for non-Germans:Many middle Asian languages change their writing system to Latin (beginning with Turkish). It's now time for the Slavic ones. The change to the Latin script will contribute to a better understanding of the Slavic languages for European and American people. Latin script is progress, future and civilization. (End of translation)


Latin Ukrainian Cyrillic Ukrainian
Vsi ľudy narodžujuťśa viľnymy i rivnymy u svojij hidnosti ta pravach. Vony nadileni rozumom i sovisťu i povynni dijaty u vidnošenni odyn do odnoho v dusi braterstva. Deklaracija Zahaľnych Sprav Ľudyny, Statťa 1 Всі люди народжуються вільними і рівними у своїй гідності та правах. Вони наділені розумом і совістю і повинні діяти у відношенні один до одного в дусі братерства. Декларація Загальних Справ Людини, Стаття 1

Question

edit

If the proposal for a new Ukrainian Latin Wikipedia does not meet the requirements for approval, would it be possible then to make the Ukrainian Wikipedia have articles in Cyrillic and in Latin as it is in the Serbian Wikipedia? This way, the Ukrainian Wikipedia will still be one Wikipedia, but will have articles for Ukrainians born in Ukraine and for Diaspora Ukrainians in both scripts??

This would be fine.. it is however for the uk.community to decide. Thanks, GerardM 12:50, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
edit

Arguments in favour

edit

Arguments against

edit
  • Same language in different script. See Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Latinized_Russian which was rejected. This request and other future requests of Latin variants of existing Cyrillic Wikipedias should be rejected too. A.M.D.F. 20:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Responses to Objection: The Latinized Russian did not have a standardized orthography. It was going to appear more like a transliteration of the existing Cyrillic Wikipedia. The Ukrainian Latynka is not a transliteration system for Ukrainian.
      • You wrote: "younger Ukrainians use various Latin versions for writing.", "There were two different version of the Latynka". So, your Latinized Ukrainian doesn't have standardized orthography too. A.M.D.F. 18:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Responses to Objection:Young Ukrainians do use various forms of transliteration, some stick to the two Latynka versions that were introduced. There were two version of the Latynka, one by Josyp Lozynski which resembled Polish, and the other by Jozef Jirecek, which resembled Czech and Slovak. They were used at different times. The latter is the most recent. I propose the use of this particular one since it is the one that is most used. If you want to see the orthography, please press on the PDF and see for yourself. There's over 100 pages explaining how to use it. Some Ukrainians, such as myself, welcome the idea of becoming more westernized. Western Europe wants Ukraine to become more Western in her politics, including Ukraine's Western Slavic neighbors. But Ukraine's Eastern Slavic neighbors for some reason always disapprove. No disrespect to you, but really, what are your reasons for your disagreement? Are they politically motivated? Again, no offense.
          • Policy says: The subcommittee does not consider political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political communities. Your latinized wikipedia is a political community of people, who wants to look westernized. If you want to be more westernized, forget the Ukrainian language and use only English or only French, or another Western language and write it with Latin alphabet. A.M.D.F. 13:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Responses to Objection:No, You have it all wrong. This is not a political agenda. We're not trying to say that we speak a different language from Standardized Ukrainian, as in the case with Moldovan and Romanian. Perhaps, a dialect, but we still recognize our proud Ukrainians. Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina use both script without political strife. Yes, some Ukrainian welcome the idea of become more Western, but this is a script they have to use for the majority of their life as immigrants in a new country. I can read Ukrainian with both scripts, but I prefer Latin because it is easier, since it is the first alphabet that I learned to read in. I read Latin Ukrainian at a faster pace that I read Ukrainian in Cyrillic. So it is not political. It is to make Wikipedia more accessible!! Your quote: Your latinized wikipedia is a political community of people, who wants to look westernized. If you want to be more westernized, forget the Ukrainian language and use only English or only French, or another Western language and write it with Latin alphabet. seems very politically motivated. You don't even speak Ukrainian and you are so worried about Ukrainian using both scripts. The thing is, Ukrainian already uses both, not to look better than the other, but because it is more convenient for them. Why would I want to forget my native language? I take pride in being Ukrainian. I'm not nationalistic, but I am a patriot. And for you to make such a comment is uncalled for! The thing is, I already speak English, French, Spanish, Hebrew, and Russian. So I don't need to forget one to speak the other.
            • Responses to Objection:Like I said above, you seem like your pushing for something political. For example, every time Ukraine attempts to have closer ties with the West, her Eastern neighbor is always stopping her from moving forward. Like in the case of NATO making a base in Crimea, Kremlin expressed deep discontent. Why? Is this a coincidence that you seem to be on the same side? The thing is, you don't even speak Ukrainian and your showing such fierce opposition. It really makes me think like you have another reason to be in disagreement. Otherwise, you really don't have a good reason.
              • I don't like that periodically someone wants to change a non-latin script of his language to latin like in these requests: Eurofarsi, Latinized Russian. They were rejected, this request will be rejected too. A.M.D.F. 18:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • If you are a patriot, you should be a patriot of true slavic Cyrillic script. You are not. Why do you like an alien alphabet for your native language? A.M.D.F. 19:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • Responses to Objection: First, you're not Ukrainian, so I don't expect you to understand. I don't need to be told how I must demonstrate my patriotism. Second, the Latin Alphabet is NOT foreign to Ukrainian. I keep on stressing that in this article, but I guess you haven't read it. And third, Ukrainian Cossacks used the Latin script; politicians, priests, poets, all whom were patriots, used the Latin alphabet. Are you saying they weren't patriots?? I know how you feel about the Cyrillic alphabet, since you express it openly on your profile. But Cyrillic doesn't works for Russian, and thats fine. I myself wouldn't support a Wikipedia for Latin Russian, because it is a foreign script for Russian. But Ukrainian used and still uses both scripts. I want more people to be aware of that. I want Cyrillic and Latin to be SIDE BY SIDE, as in many other Slavic nations who are patriotic of who they are. You can't say Cyrillic is a Slavic alphabet, because Poles, Czechs, Slovaks are also Slavs. Kazakhs are not, and they use Cyrillic. I don't mean to exalt one over the other, but both scripts played an important role in Ukraine's history. I want to bring this to the surface.
                • No, you're wrong. Latin alphabet is foreigh for Ukrainian too. Cyrillic is a true Slavic alphabet, because it was invented by Slavs and for Slavs. You know it. Традиційно для запису текстів українською використовувалася кирилиця в різних її варіантах. Жодна з пропозицій латинізувати українську у минулому писемність не отримувала широкої підтримки. A.M.D.F. 21:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Responses to Objection: А чому пропозиції латинізувати українську в минулому не отримала широкої підтримки? Яка причина? Під час Австро–Угорської Імперії, також і до цього часу, українці думали що будь–яка ініціатива латинізація це тривання щоби полонізувати українську націю і зруйнувати українську індивідуальність. Сьогодні, Польща не загрожує українські культурі й індивідуальності. Якщо ви проглянули PDF Гарвардського професора про сучасну українську латинку, ви зрозумієте що латинка також i важлива як і кирилиця.
        • Responses to Objection: A čomu propozyciji latynizuvaty ukrajinśku v mynulomu ne otrymala šyrokoji pidtrymky? Jaka pryčyna? Pid čas Avstro-Uhorśkoji Imperiji, takož i do ćoho času, ukrajinci dumaly ščo buď jaka iniciatyva latynizuvaty ce tryvanńa ščoby polonizuvaty ukrajinśku naciju i zrujnuvaty ukrajinśku indyviduaľnisť. Śohodni, Poľšča ne zahrožuje ukrajinśki kuľturi j indyviduaľnosti. Jakščo vy prohľanuly PDF Harvardśkoho profesora pro sučasnu ukrajinśku latynku, vy zrozumijete ščo latynka takož i važlyva jak i kyrylyća.
          • Responses to Objection: Translation: Why did attempts to latinize Ukrainian fail to gain wide acceptance in the past? What's the reason? During the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as well as before that, Ukrainians believed that any attempt to latinize them was an attempt to polonize them; it was believed to be a threat to the Ukrainian nation and an attempt to destroy Ukrainian identity through assimilation. Today, Poland is not a threat to Ukraine's culture and unique identity. If you read the PDF by a Harvard Professor about the modern Ukrainian Latin alphabet, you will understand why the Latin is just as important as the Cyrillic alphabet.
      • Responses to Objection: So you are also saying that Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, etc. are not loyal to their own cultural background because they betrayed their heritage by choosing the Latin alphabet, instead of Cyrillic? Quote from what you had to say: Cyrillic is a true Slavic alphabet, because it was invented by Slavs and for Slavs. Ummm ... It was not invented by Slavs, but Byzantine Greeks. And Cyrillic is the true Slavic alphabet. If that's something you want to argue, then you're wrong. St. Cyril and Methodius invented the Glagolitic alphabet, which isn't used today.
      • Responses to Objection: So maybe, that makes us all traitors because Ukrainians, Russians, and Belarusian don't use the original Glagolitic alphabet that was actually created by Cyril and Methodius, intended to be used for Slavs?? This particular argument about which alphabet was originally intended to be used, it leads nowhere. Because one cannot say, Cyrillic is for all Slavs. Or Latin is foreign. You know, the Roman Empire was in Scythia before it was even Christianized. So there, Scythians, the first people who were in Ukraine and in Russia, probably used the Latin or Etruscan alphabet. Or maybe we should switch to Greek or Phoenician because they were the first in Crimea? You can go on forever, saying which one is foreign and which one is native. You grew up using the Cyrillic since grade school, so it seems native to you. For 10 million of Ukraine's Western Diaspora, Latin is the alphabet used starting from grade school. So, for them, both Latin and maybe Cyrillic are native.
  • Responses to Objection: Emz Ukaz, concerning Drahomanivka which was banned by the Russian Empire would have made Ukrainian appear more Western, resembling Serbian. Ukrainians did not object to that, but the Russian Government did. Also, if you read the Wikipedia article about Latynka, you will see that there were propositions during the Soviet Union, but they were not welcomed by the Soviet Government. Every time the Latin alphabet was introduced, it was discouraged by our Eastern neighbor, or by Russian-speaking Ukrainians aiming at closer ties with the East.
  • Responses to Objection: Turks are not any less Turkish for changing their alphabet from Arabic to Latin. Same case with Moldovans, Romanians and Azeri Turks. These are the ones that changed it most recently.
  • Even though this argument sometimes gets heated, I don't mean for anything to come off as offensive. I'm just trying to bring up questions that I believe need answers. I have nothing against AMDF and I respect your opinion. Your objections have only helped the cause.
Requisites for eligibility
1. Project does not already exist No. There is uk:.
2. A valid ISO-639 1–3 code No. uk and ukr are for Ukrainian, not for Latin Ukrainian or Diaspora Ukrainian.
3. Sufficiently unique language, that could not coexist on a more general wiki. No. If a proposal is about script, it can coexist in uk: (same way as sr: or kk:). If a proposal is about some "dialect", it can coexist too (same way as British English and American English in en:).
4. A sufficient number of living native speakers Don't know how many people write Ukrainian in Latin script. If such a people exist, they are minority.

So, this request should be refused. A.M.D.F. 19:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Against. Support arguments by A.M.D.F. Latinized Ukrainian is used in internet portals and maybe in mobile phone messages, but it shouldn't be used as wikipedia project. In addition to this, such a wikipedia would bring disunity in Ukrainian related projects. That's my opinion. --Visconsus 09:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Responses to Objection: You obviously did not read the article. I have contributed much to the Cyrillic Ukrainian Project, and I would continue doing so even if I were to contribute to the Ukrainian Latynka Wikipedia. It would not bring disunity. I believe that the Cyrillic Wikipedia is just as important as a Latin Wikipedia.
  • I agree with the first comment, and certainly with the second. No. --Anonymous DissidentTalk 23:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even though I have some understanding for the "diaspora" argument put forth above, I am in fact against allowing additional, rarely used scripts for well-established literary languages that feature one default script. Aside from quality and neutrality concerns that tend to come along with small community "auxiliary Wikipedias" (important to keep in mind that we're not talking about an additional language here), I wonder if is really too much to ask for to expect somebody who wants to create (and read) quality content in Ukrainian to be willing and able to use that one script probably 99 % of all Ukrainian literature is written in. An encyclopedia in Ukrainian that's cut off from the vast majority of Ukrainian literary production seems neither a prudent nor a promising undertaking to me. (One should also bear in mind that we're not taking about a huge script barrier here, like e. g. Chinese script opposed to Latin script, but Cyrillic which can easily be learned by anyone literate in Latin script). --ARBE0 15:52, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Against. I agree with A.M.D.F., Visconsus et al; I have yet to see that Ukrainian Latin is officially recognised as a language, and not as a dialect, offshoot or something of that nature (rather like "1337" is to English). Moreover, is there anyone who does not speak/understand normal Ukrainian but does speak/understand Latinised Ukrainian? If not, then surely the wikipedia would not bring any benefit (see Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Pre-reform Russian). It Is Me Here 20:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again and again. Latinised Russian, latinised Mongol (nearby topic), latinased Ukrainian... what else? Even latinized tatar failed (whicn was not an original research as other do but an official attempt). It sometimes seems that there is the one person or joint group of persons who offer all this latinised variants. Sura 20:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Against. I don't see any usefulness in this proposition. It is a further attempt to pull the Ukrainian culture away from its Orthodox Eastern Slavic roots. While other nations with own alphabets (Greeks, Jews, Hindus, Georgians, Armenians, Japanese) are proud of it as of a further unique attribute of their cultural individuality, we observe an opposite tendency in modern Ukraine: a striving for mediocrity and adaptation. Psychologically, I think, the deep reason for it is a hidden subconscious wish to insult the "Moskals", even at the price of betraying the cultural heritage of the own forefathers. Who will write in this idiotic Translit? Except for some freaks nobody. Voevoda 23:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other discussion

edit
It does not have. ukr is an ISO 639-3 for normal Ukrainian. Wikipedia in Ukrainian is already existing. A.M.D.F. 18:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • All if not most dialects fall under the same ISO 639 code. Ukrainian has 3 codes, just like Belarussian, one of the three being the Tarashkevitsa. Belarussian has two Wikipedias. Also, Serbian and Bosnian, languages that both use Cyrillic and Latin don't have designated ISO codes for each script.
      • Belorussian is a special case. Tarashkevitsa was created first, later it was replaced by normative variant. Instead of deletion old be-wikipedia was moved to a separate domain. Serbian and Bosnian doesn't have different codes for each script. ISO 639 codes are codes for languages, not for scripts. A.M.D.F. 13:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • EXACTLY MY POINT, thank YOU!! A.M.D.F. Latin Ukrainian does NOT NEED a different ISO code, because it still qualifies as Ukrainian, even though being a dialect. Serbian and Bosnian use both scripts and have only one code for both scripts. SO DOES UKRAINIAN! Thank you again!
  • A.M.D.F. Here's a question for you: If the proposal for a new Ukrainian Latin Wikipedia does not meet the requirements for approval, would it be possible then to make the Ukrainian Wikipedia have articles in Cyrillic and in Latin as it is in the Serbian Wikipedia? This way, the Ukrainian Wikipedia will still be one Wikipedia, but will have articles for Ukrainians born in Ukraine and for Diaspora Ukrainians in both scripts?? This wouldn't be such a waste of resources, according you. Remember, Latin Ukrainian is not a transliteration system, but an actual alphabet. See the PDF. There are over 100 pages of a book about Latin Ukrainian Orthography, something Latin Russian does not have.
Retrieved from "https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Ukrainian_Latin&oldid=25158033"