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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Zlatiborian

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Zlatiborian Wikipedia

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submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process.
This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 22:02:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • Number of speakers: approximately 20-30 thousand
  • Locations spoken: Zlatibor and neighbouring regions
Comments
  • This Wikipedia has been requested before (by me), but since I found little support of other users, I've deleted the request.--Ђорђе Д. Божовић 14:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sellack Alex and George, both on en: and here, a lot of people made clear that the Zlatiborian language and this request were mere hoaxes, and though I know very little about Serbian dialects it seems clear to me that they are right. Besides, your edits are even considered "vandalism" there. Come on, Wikipedia is not for jokes. Withdraw this silly "request" now! Caesarion Velim, non opto 15:54, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • You would recognize the difference if you could just see some examples of it. Zlatiborian and Serbian are very similar, but a Serbian would say: Nigde na svetu nema lepsega grada od Beograda, but a Zlatiborian says: Nidje na svijetu nema ljepseg grada od Biograda. Or, while a Serbian says: Letos behosmo u Gruziji, posecivasmo hramove i manastire, a Zlatiborian would say: Ljetos bijasmo u Djurdjiji, posjecivasmo crkve i manastire, etc.

Former Yugoslavia is an area of a lot of disagreements. For example, there was no Bosnian language when Bosnia was part of Yugoslavia, and there also were no Croatian, Montenegrin and other languages. Serbian linguists recognized Bosnian language in 2004! And Montenegrin, Zlatiborian, etc. are still not recognized by Serbia. All these languages are similar. They are so similar that their speakers often don't need a translator to understand each other, but they are not as similar as Serbian linguists present them. Plus, if Zlatiborian really is only a dialect of Serbian, and Serbian Wikipedia is in literary Serbian only, than really should be a Zlatiborian Wikipedia, since it would be Serbian (or better say Serbo-Croatian) dialectical (regional) edition. Any way you look, Zlatiborians do need their language/regional edition Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects to work on in their (mine too) native language/dialect.--Ђорђе Д. Божовић 13:07, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    • I am quite well aware of the Serbian Croatian and Bosnian case - to me it is just largely a political case. But why was it impossible to convince any of the users that Zlatiborian is something of a distinct variant? All of them voted for deletion, and really, not all of them are Serbian nationalists, I can tell you. Caesarion Velim, non opto 16:47, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, those who weren't Serbian nationalists were foreigners who are not introduced with the situation. However, Serbo-Croatian languages are languages used in all of the former Yugoslavia, including some regions in neighbouring countries, too. All South Slavic nationalities speak discint dialect of that language. Serbo-Croatian languages (you may say dialects) are base for standardisation of the literary languages: Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Montenegrin, Zlatiborian... Dialects of Serbo-Croatian are spoken by the whole people of Yugoslavia, but literary languages developed from Serbo-Croatian preserved many local (dialectical) characteristics and they remained very similar, but still different. For example, Croats and Zlatiborians say kava (coffee), Serbs say kafa, Bosniaks say kahva, and Montenegrins say kava or kafa, depending on Montenegrin dialect (northern or southern); or Croats and Bosniaks say sjever (north), Serbs say sever, Zlatiborians say šjever, and Montenegrins say sjever or śever, depending on newer or older standardisation of the Montenegrin language. Those are variants of a same word, and they all can understand each other, but look at this: Serbs and Bosniaks say hotel, Croats say gostionica, Zlatiborians say konačište, while Montenegrins use all these forms. As you can see, some languages often use the same words. In the first example (coffee), Croatian, Zlatiborian, and Monetenegrin were same, in the second example (north) Croatian and Bosnian were same, in the third (hotel) Bosnian and Serbian were same... Montenegrin is very specific about this - it has different forms depending on dialect and standardisation age. Northern Montenegrin dialect are very similar to Zlatiborian, they are almost same, while the southern dialect is different. Plus, the older standardisation is closer to Croatian language, and the new Montenegrin standardisation is based on southern dialect and is different. Discussing the Serbo-Croatian dialects is an interesting theme, but it takes some political controversies as you said. I know many people that are willing to work on Zlatiborian Wikipedia if it opens. Creating the Zlatiborian Wikipedia would show if the language (dialect if you want to say so) is different from Serbian or not. Beside, you can always ask for locking up the Zlatiborian Wikipedia and other projects in Zlatiborian if you think that it should be done, right?--Ђорђе Д. Божовић 17:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nicola Shishovich: Support as a native speaker who wants to work on it.
  • Supportski para estiquerle al Hombre. --Node ue 00:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Skafa 21:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. We don't need any more Serbo-Croatian wikipedias - 4 is more than enough. --Chamdarae 01:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Firstly, let me say that I'm usually very enthusiastic towards the creation of new language Wikipedias. I also recognise the fact that what used to be called dialects in the past by various nationalists are actually languages, and that regional languages are a very important, but only recently-appreciated, part of linguistic heritage and therefore must be strongly supported. It is for this reason that I supported the founding of the Aromanian Wikipedia, which many people consider to be a Romanian dialect; the Voro Wikipedia, which many consider to be an Estonian dialect; the Samogitian Wikipedia, which many consider to be a Lithuanian dialect; the Occitan Wikipedia, which some consider to be a French dialect. However,, even in this context, I oppose the Zlatiborian Wikipedia because there is virtually no documentation on it out there (it borders on original research, even) and from the samples you have given me, it seems very similar to Serbian or Croatian. The fact is - maybe the speech is a bit different, but is there actually a well-defined written form? I come from Transylvania in Romania, and here we speak a dialect of the Romanian language - an actual dialect, not one that is actually a language. This Tranyslvanian dialect has a number of differences to the standard dialect of Romanian - some sounds are changed, verbs are contracted, etc. For example, instead of saying "Eu sunt foarte..." (I am very...) we say something sounding like "Io îs fõrte". Instead of "cartofi" (potatoes) some of us use the regionalism "croampe". As you can see, when you write it down, the difference is not smaller than the difference between Zlatiborian and Serbian. But a version in Transylvanian would be absurd, if only because there isn't a consistent written standard. There are just regional words and regional differences of speech that people use arbitrarily. If we approve Zlatiborian, it means having a version in all the possible speech differences that people make in a language, and speech varies so much more significantly than the written form. This would mean having - in the case of Romania, about 15 Wikipedias, in Serbia maybe 15, in France maybe another 15, in the United States maybe 15 (because even there speech changes - a Texan pronounces a word differently than a New Yorker)... all in all, much too many! What I'm trying to say is - we don't have Wikipedias for regional dialects or variants, but rather for regional languages. Zlatiborian can only be accepted if it's a separate language, not if it's a regional variation of the Serbian language. Maybe I'm on the wrong track here - if yes, I'm open to discussion. Ronline 08:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • SUPPORT, can't wait to tell the others! -- Danka 1:24, 30 October 2005 (CEST)
    • Ronline, you say instead of saying "Eu sunt foarte..." (I am very...) we say something sounding like "Io îs fõrte". Instead of "cartofi" (potatoes) some of us use the regionalism "croampe". So, not all of you say croampe, and you don't write Io îs fõrte, but saying something that sounds like that, right? Although Zlatibor is part of Serbia, and Serbian is the only official language, we don't use Serbian and Zlatiborian words equally. We speak Zlatiborian (usually with friends and family) or Serbian (in formal situations), but not both mixed. And in Zlatiborian, if we say something, we write it in that very same way, we don't have the same words like in Serbian that are just pronounced differently, no! --Danka 1:52, 30 October 2005 (CEST)
      • But does Zlatiborian actually have a written tradition? I mean, do people actually write in Zlatiborian? I could technically write Transylvanian - and in many colloquial texts and novels people have used "Transylvanian", especially in dialogue - but the dialect doesn't have a standard form or written tradition. With the "Io îs fõrte" example, I meant pronunciation. We wouldn't write it like that. And in Transylvania, when we deal with the public administration, or even in shops, people generally speak closer to standard Romanian, whereas at home, especially in rural areas, we speak with more Hungarian words, with more Transylvanian colloquialisms. What I'm trying to get at - if you can show me that Zlatiborian has a standard written form different to Serbian, and is mentioned in a credible source as a language, rather than an accent or a dialect, I will wholeheartedly support it. I appreciate the efforts of the six users here who have tried to promote Zlatiborian, and for that I'm keeping an open mind :) Ronline 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • First book printed in Zlatiborian was one Orthodox gospel from the monastery of Rujno, at the north of Zlatibor, in 1535, only 50 years after Gutenberg's invention of movable type. Zlatiborian always used Cyrillic alphabet, although some Zlatiborians today write using the Latin alphabet. Cyrillic is still official, however. Zlatiborian alphabet is called Azbuka, after the first two letters, that are called az and buki. Azbuka has been changed upon the time. The first Zlatiborian Azbuka had 42 letters. That number was decreasing, as the language was changing and some letters became unnecessary, and the current Zlatiborian Azbuka was formed by the beginning of the 19th century. It is identical to Serbian alphabet, both alphabets have 30 identical letters. Only those letters have different names in Serbian and in Zlatiborian. For example, Zlatiborian letters az and buki are in Serbian called a and b. Zlatiborian isn't just a local pronounce as Transylvanian. We write the language that we speak, and exactly the way we speak. Zlatiborian, like the other Slavic languages, has the phonetic orthography, which means that all words are written just as they are pronounced. Of course, there are few exceptions. But generaly, our language is very, very easy for spelling. :) --Danka 10:47, 31 October 2005 (CEST)
Actualy, Azbuka was originated by Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic, from na older alphabet, and is now a Serbian name for alphabet, which was named (alphabet) after first two letters in Greek alphabet - alpha and beta. What you wrote here is a histori of Serbian Cyrillic Alphabet. You are making this up as you go. Бране Јовановић 11:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Neutral - Is there a single renowned linguist in the world (outside former Yugoslavia) who would consider this a separate language? Of course, I don't want to deny the inhabitants of Zlatibor the right to consider their local idiom a "language". But then again, spoken language differs slightly from the written standard everywhere. In fact, strictly spoken no two individuals in the world share a completely identical language. For that reason, in order to facilitate written communication among people, common standards have been set up. For the area and the linguistic continuum Zlatibor is part of, that written standard language is Serbian (or, according to others, Serbo-Croatian). I'm trying to consider this issue as unprejudiced as possible but still can't think of a single reason why Wikimedia Foundation should support an encyclopedia written in a small local dialect. Such a project would most certainly not be in line with Wikipedia's goals. Arbeo 10:02, 1 November 2005 (UTC) (change Arbeo 18:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC))[reply]
  • Oppose - Belgian man 12:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • User Danka said it all correctly: Zlatiborian has a written tradition. It is not a dialect of the neighboring Serbian language, it is the discint language that has its own dialects (those are Eastern and Western Zlatiborian dialect). I don't see what there is not to be understood. Zlatiborian is not a spoken variant of Serbian, but you somehow keep thinking that Zlatiborian is written in same way as Serbian, and just spoken differently. Please, Zlatiborian words are pronounced in the very same way that they are written (with few exceptions). So, if the pronounce is different, then the written language is different, too. And if words are written differently, then they are pronounced differently, too. In Zlatiborian you write as you speak, and you read as it's written (again, there are few exceptions). So Zlatiborian is different from other South Slavic languages (including Serbian) in writing and in pronouncing. It is similar to Serbian, in fact Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin and Zlatiborian are very similar languages, so similar that they were considered to be one single language, called Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian. That language was the official language of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia, a former country, was an unitary country for all Southern Slavs except Bulgarians. Yugoslavia actually means the country of Southern Slavs. An unitary country had an unitary language... When Croatia and Bosnia got independence from Yugoslavia, Croatian and Bosnian were admitted as distinct languages. The Serbs, people with the biggest population in Yugoslavia, with ideas of uniting the whole Balkans under their power (so-called Greater Serbia), didn't want to admit the difference. The theory of the unitary Serbo-Croatian language actually was their idea. Yugoslavia became smaller country than before - without of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, and Macedonia, it remained with Montenegro and Serbia only (with Sanjak, Zlatibor, Vojvodina, Kosovo, Krajina, and other nonautomous regions within Serbia). Now nationalism rose in Serbia, and Slobodan Milosevic, the nationalist leader of the Socialist Party became the president. Serbo-Croatian still was the official language in the smaller Yugoslavia, but then that idea was left, and Serbo-Croatian was renamed to Serbian, under Milosevic's nationalist preassure. According to Serb linguists, there are no Montenegrin, Zlatiborian, and Bosnian languages, but Serbian only, and Croatian, the only discint language they admitted. In 2005, Serbs finally admitted Bosnian, too. Montenegro and Zlatibor are still parts of Yugoslavia (that in 2004 changed its name to the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro), and Montenegrin and Zlatiborian are still not admitted by the Serbs. They claim that Montenegrin and Zlatiborian are dialects of Serbian. Actually, according to them, the Zeta-Southern Sanjaki dialect is spoken in Montenegro, and the Eastern Herzegovinian dialect is spoken in Zlatibor (although Zlatibor is far away from Herzegovina). They even refuse to use the adjectives Montenegrin and Zlatiborian. And the only language admitted by the Serbia's central power as the official country's one is Serbian. However, Zlatiborian remains to exist through the every-day language of the Zlatiborians, and through the literature that is in Zlatiborian published by several Zlatiborian publishing houses. Come on, you guys, the language really exists!
I am very close to changing my vote to support. However, some things need to be cleared up. Firstly - is written Zlatiborian ever used in public life? Things like the media, shops, etc.? Secondly, I think you'll have a very hard time convicing enough people at Wikimedia that Zlatiborian is an actual language, separate from Serbian and with a literary tradition. That is because when you search for "Zlatiborian" on Google, the first search result is from the Wikimedia network. There are virtually no external sources on Zlatiborian. The fact that the English Wikipedia article on the language got deleted, and that the Babel template was declared a hoax, all reduce the credibility of this project. I'm not expressing my personal viewpoint here, but the perceived views of the community. I think this is one of the most controversial language proposals yet, and while I appreciate the organised way in which the Zlatiborian Wikipedia team have presented their arguments, and their hard work so far, I think there still is a lot to be done in actually convincing people to support this project. Additionally, zb is not an acceptable subdomain code. Languages that don't have ISO codes conventionally get the generalised language family ISO code followed by the SIL code (for Aromanian, the code was roa-rup, "roa" meaning Other Romance languages and "rup" being the SIL code for Aromanian - now Aromanian has its own ISO code - rup, so the Wikipedia should be moved there). Anyway, so because Zlatiborian has neither an ISO code neither a SIL code, there is quite a problem. I think the SIL code can be substituted by a three-letter code like "zbr", so the code should be sla-zbr. Using just zb goes against Wikimedia convention and is unfair when other languages, that are actually recognised by linguistic bodies get much longer codes. Ronline 07:11, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at things from a different angle (yes, I'm capable of doing that!) it doesn't seem more illogic to have separate wiki for Zlatiborian than one for Bosnian. Still, the issue Ronline mentions persists: there seems to be absolutely no mention of the language, neither in books nor on the Internet. I mean, since you're not some undiscovered tribe somewhere in the highlands of New Guinea, how can that be? Anyway - I'll contact a slavicist at our university sometime soon and find out what is their view on the subject. Arbeo 09:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Actually some people have suggested that there shouldn't be separate wikipedias for Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian either, especially since there's a Serbo-Croatian wikipedia as well. In most cases there has been resistance among the community to starting new wikipedias in what are obviously mutually intelligible varieties of a single language (eg American English, Brazilian Portuguese, Triestin, etc etc). Serbo-Croatian is one of the few languages where wikipedias have been set up for different national varieties of a single language. Maybe there should be more discussion about having multiple wikipedias for a single language. I agree Zlatiborian (and Montenegrin) should be treated the same as any other variety of Serbo-Croatian, as well as national / regional varieties of English, Portuguese and other languages. But I don't think having separate wikipedias is the answer. --Chamdarae 19:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Actually Chamdarae, while Serbian, Bosnian, and Croatian form pretty much part of a linguistic continuum, Montenegrin and Zlatiborian have some sharp differences. Many people think of Zlatiborian as a sort of mix of Slovene and Serbian, and Montenegrin even has a bigger alphabet than Serbian. --Node ue 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Arbeo, you wrote since you're not some undiscovered tribe somewhere in the highlands of New Guinea, how can that be?, asking for how come there's no any mention of Zlatiborian at the Internet. Well, you see, we actually are some kind of a tribe living somewhere in the highlands. We are in Europe, but we live on a mountain Zlatibor (actually, I live in the near-by Serbian city Uzice, where lives mixed Serbian and Zlatiborian population, and the local population speaks a variant of Zlatiborian, but my family is originally from Mt. Zlatibor). Zlatibor's highest peak is Tornik at 1497 meters, and other places are just about 500 meters lower. Secondly, most of Zlatiborian families are organized somehow very similar to old Slavic tribes. We are a people that have very long tradition and customs that we practice since the Middle Ages. Kraljeve Vode, Zlatibor's capital, and Cajetina, Zlatibor's old capital, are the only urban towns at Mt. Zlatibor, other places are villages where people still keep cows, pigs, sheep, and other animals. In Zlatiborian villages people still live like long time ago. They have electricity, phones, and television, but their lifestyle is not much different than the lifestyle of their grand-grandparents. Some villages (like Mackat, Sirogojno, Mokra Gora, Kremna, Sljivovica, etc.) are closer to the 21st century, and they even have computers. In Kraljeve Vode and Cajetina situation is much better. There people live in a very modern and European usual way. So why there are no mention of Zlatiborian on the Net? Because computers get to Zlatibor several years ago, and it's not practice there for firms to have their pages yet. However, there are a few sites about Zlatibor made by the Serbs (they love coming to Zlatibor for their summer and winter holidays - the mountain is very famous at the whole Balkans). Don't make me wrong now, there are a lot of people in Zlatibor who are able to work with computers, but making sites on the Internet is not their practice. Also, who could say anything about Zlatiborian when the communist power presented Serbo-Croatian, and Serbian nationalist leader Slobodan Milosevic admitted only Serbian. "zb" is very suitable code for Zlatiborian, because Zlatibor got its name after two Zlatiborian words: zlato (gold) or zlatni (golden), and bor (pine tree). If there must be three-letter code, it should be "zlt" or "zlb" or "zla". It should be voted. And one more thing, Ronline asked is Zlatiborian used in books and media. Yes, certainly! There is only one Zlatiborian TV channel so far, and that's TV "Cajetina". I think that TV "Zlatibor" is supposed to be created soon. Several years ago, before TV "Cajetina" there was TV "Cigota", the first Zlatiborian TV channel (Cigota is name for one of the Zlatibor's peaks). About books, Zlatiborians are well-known through the Balkans as very smart and clever nation. Living in an area of a very fresh and clean air, totally natural, with a lot of clean, good water, and healthy food, Zlatiborians always were symbol of South Slavic literacy and smartness. Milisav Djenic, his daughter Nena Djenic-Ajdanic and Ljubisa Djenic are well-known Zlatiborian historians, who wrote plenty books about the history of Zlatibor. Michael Cupovic (1934-2004) was the most famous Zlatiborian poet. We was writing poems for kids, poems about Zlatibor, about the love, and about life in a village. His poems are something that every Zlatiborian kid learns the first of all. Ljubivoje Rsumovic is even more famous poet from Zlatibor, but he moved away to Belgrade, Serbia, and declarating himself as a Serb, he wrote in Serbian. His poems are very good, and that's something every Serbian kid learns the first... In addition, Mirjana Stakic and Dobrosav Obradovic are two more Zlatiborian writers, but less known. Mirjana Stakic was director of the National Library in Cajetina, and she is representative of the modern poetry. He also wrote novels, such as Anina prica (Ann's story), the perl of Zlatiborian literature. As I heard, her new novel about some Zlatiborian woman that fought Turks in the Middle Ages (Turks hold Zlatibor 1463-1807) was published several days ago. Dobrosav Obradovic was very smart kid, he is probably the youngest writer in the world - his first book of poems was published when he was five years old. As you can see, usage of the Zlatiborian is concetrated on Mt. Zlatibor and neighboring regions, such as Uzice. You actually can find something about Zlatiborian on the Internet if you look for златиборски језик or just златиборски, but that's in Zlatiborian, so that wouldn't help, would it? Oh, by the way, comparing Croatian, Bosnian, Zlatiborian, Montenegrin, and Serbian with American and British English or Brasilian and real Portuguese isn't good enough. Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Zlatiborian and Serbian are more different than American and British English are. First of all, Croatian and Montenegrin are Latin, Zlatiborian is Cyrillic, and Serbian and Bosnian are both Cyrillic and Latin. Croatian, Bosnian, Zlatiborian, and Montenegrin use the Ijekavski way to replace the Old Slavonic letter yat, while Serbian uses Ekavski way to replace yat. In addition, there are some Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian dialects that use the non-literal Ikavski way of replacing yat. Plus, every language has its own vocabulary, with many similar or totally same words, but many different, too. Arbeo, you are right - if there are separate Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian wikis, there should be Zlatiborian and Montenegrin, too. Having these two additional wikis would completely cover the whole area of former Yugoslavia, and every man would find wiki best for him to work on. I think that there is some other language in eastern Serbia that is closer to Macedonian than to Serbian, but is considered as a Serbian dialect. It is very specific, its speakers really declarate themselves as Serbs (most of them, some are declarated as Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Romas), but that language/dialect has declension, verb forms, and vocabulary very different from Serbian. This language is called Pirotian, Svrligian, Nisavan, Leskovan, etc., I'm not sure what's its real name. You should check this, too, and see if this wiki should be created, so anybody from former Yugoslavia and the whole Western Balkans would be able to work on his native language Wikipedia. --Danka 12:11, 3 November 2005 (CEST)
OK - just a few more questions (I am learning a lot about my region, Southeastern Europe, from this!) This point that not many people have web pages in Zlatibor doesn't really explain the fact that there is no content in this language on the Internet. I have searched for "златиборски језик" and Wikipedia is still the first result, with no other results. I have also searched for TV "Cajetina". No results that mention a Zlatiborian language. The other thing is - does this TV station broadcast in Zlatiborian, with captions written in Zlatiborian, different from Serbian? When TV Zlatibor will broadcast, will it be in Zlatiborian, different from Serbian, written differently than Serbian? Does Zlatiborian have a standard written version? Or, because it is written like it is spoken, it differs across different localities in the Zlatibor. Other than that, I would love to support the Zlatiborian Wikipedia. The fact that there is absolutely no coverage on this language, when there is coverage on much smaller and obscure languages, is a problem. Ronline 07:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comprehensive reply, Danka! Well, my point wasn't exactly that there should be Zlatiborian and Montenegrin Wikipedias because there are already Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian ones. I was simply acknowledging the existance of a special situation here (which is not considered ideal by many). Then again, languages are very complex structures that are subject to historical, politicial, social, religious, economic and many other, even emotional, influences. Therefore, evaluating requests solely from a linguistic perspective will not always do justice to such complex situation. After considering all aspects yet once more, I've come to two conclusions: 1) I must change my vote to "neutral" 2) I must visit your region some day. Arbeo 18:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Many people from all over the world visit Zlatibor. Every day of the year there is atleast one hundred tourists here. Atleast, no matter is it summer, winter, spring, or autumn! Many foreign languages can be heard here, most of all English, French, Russian, Slovenian, Greek... and Serbian. More than half of Serbia is coming to Zlatibor anually. They just love this mountain, maybe that's why they want it so much to be totally theirs. When I search Google for златиборски језик or zlatiborski jezik, I find some stupid sites that just count statistics of the region. A few years ago, The Zlatiborian Language Institute was founded in Cajetina, and today it's settled in Kraljeve Vode (translated to English, the name of this town would be the King's Waters). I've worked at the Department for the Regional Demography of this Institute from 1994 to 1996, but I'm still in contact with other people working there, and I think they will soon make their Web site. But that's just a rumor, I can't say for sure. About spelling and pronouncing, yes, we do write in the very same way as we speak (with a few small exceptions), and no, it's not true that everyone writes in his own way as he speaks. Zlatiborian is a standardised language, and we write and speak in the way that's been normed by the specialised linguists during the 19th and the 20th centuries. There are two dialects of the Zlatiborian language: Western, the dialect that's been used in Zlatiborian literature, and the literary language is based on it; and Eastern, that is spoken in the regions of Zlatibor closer to Serbia, and some influence of Serbian can be found in this dialect. These dialects are not different by the accentuation, nor by the vocabulary; they are just different by the historical development, with Western as the original Zlatiborian, and Eastern as the dialect infuenced by the Serbian language, with some words coming from the Serbian vocabulary.
Well, many people, including a lot of Dutchmen, go to Amsterdam, and so I am to conclude that the Amsterdam speech is a separate dialect as well? Caesarion Velim, non opto 22:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This seems to be a rather complex hoax perpetrated by Ђорђе Д. Божовић (Đorđe D. Božović). Other "native speakers" supporting this language (SellackAlex, Nicola Shishkovich, Danka) are most probably his sockpuppets with names based on real life acquaintances for an added dose of "realism". Is it possible to somehow check this? --Elephantus 10:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it could be a hoax. That's the confusing thing - the native Zlatiborian speakers here have put in a lot of work for this proposal, but there is no proof at all that this language actually exists. And a lot of the justification seems made up, like "websites will be coming soon", "there is not much Internet in Zlatibor". Anyway, what made me suspicious was this message: "Interesting... I don't find myself irresponsible. However... I've asked for deletion of those articles, they really were stupid. I'm sorry, I've made confuse in Wikipedia. It was a little joke. Sorry again.--Ђорђе Д. Божовић 12:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)" at User talk:Millosh#Romsko srpski jezik and "I've deleted the request for Zlatiborian Wikipedia. There's no such thing as the Zlatiborian language, it was a joke.--Ђорђе Д. Божовић 12:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)". Could you explain please? Was this some sort of bet or project on how you can deceive Wikimedia in order to found the first Wikipedia in an inexistent language (if yes, I'm requesting the creation of a Wikipedia in the Rogerian language, the language spoken in the Rogerius quarter of Oradea, Romania ;) Ronline 10:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The reason for this is partly due to the cultural history of Zlatibor. Djordje was shamed for telling the truth, and ridiculed. So, he withdrew it and gave the explanation of "it was a joke" to avoid the further shame from Serbian nationalists. Now, he saw that this was actually proposed by somebody else. Before, he was the only one supporting his position, and it was weak for that. But this time, instead, somebody else proposed, and now the truth can prevail. --Node ue 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, I think it is not as much a hoax as a typical case of balkanisation. When Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak and Montenegrin are all to be considered seperate languages, the Zlatibor dialects might different enough from standard Serbian to be considered just another language in the Serbo-Croatian spectrum. So in the minds of the proposers, it will surely be a language. I however think breaking up the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia was already undesirable from a linguistic point of view, but elevating another regional variant of it which isn't even official anywhere would create a hell of a precedent: you'd have to admit hundreds, even thousands of new Wikipedias in slightly different regional variants. But why don't you set up a Wikicity? Caesarion Velim, non opto 10:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Language does not exists as such, only in the head of Ђорђе Д. Божовић, who's been advocating it all along. This is his 3rd or 4th try at this, and he only refines his arguments, doesn't give any new supporting evidence, and apologizes every time for his "irresponsibility" --Бране Јовановић 11:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yet another Serbian nationalist who wants to continue the oppression of the illustrious history of Zlatibor, its illustrious people, and beautiful language. Why, I ask, is it that all Zlatiborians have voted "yes", but all Serbian nationalists have voted "no"? It went the same way with all Zlatiborian language votes on en.wikipedia. --Node ue 05:13, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • And I suppose you are the one to tell who is a nationalist and who is a helpless defender of the poor language that doesn't exist. Listen Mark, you don't know the first thing about this. Have you ever been there? Have you ever heard people talk there? Why are you so supportive of the people when you don't seem to have a clue about this matter. All you care is to support the lesser,

no matter for what cause and no matter if they're right or wrong. And what you call a "Serbian nationalist" is actually what Djordje and his friends stand for. He's announced numerous times that he's a Serb and he's proud of it, but here he goes creating a language. No hard feelings, but I don't see your motive in here. --Dungodung 15:27, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

        • You're the worst of the lot. My Zlatiborian brothers will surely find their glorious homeland free from the shackles of Serbian oppression when they stage a revolution against your long occupation, and the Zlatiborian language and culture will finally have a chance to be promoted internationally without fear of punishment by cruel Serbian nationalists. You think that you can claim that just because I am not a Serbian, I know nothing about this issue. Well, I have seen images of Zlatibor on television, and I read all about the Serbian occupation. I have a bumper sticker that says "Free Zlatibor Now! Boycott Serbia!", and I own some books on Zlatiborian language. My deepest hope is that after the Serbian tyranny ends, I may travel to Zlatibor and witness the beauty firsthand. That is, unless you and your Serbian nationalist goons destroy it first. --Node ue 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm just gonna laugh in hope that you were being sarcastic with this. By the way, Djordje announced that he doesn't want a zb wikipedia and that this was the last of his meta adventures. So, we could all stop with this... ;) --Dungodung 21:33, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Reason: Really no need. TheFEARgod 12:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - --Pokrajac 12:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose! I have problems with a couple of claims here. Firstly, there is no ISO for this language! Therefore, no matter how many "Zlatiborian linguists" consider this a separate language, it is not accepted worldwide and thus doesn't exist. This is only a mere variant of Serbian language and that's it! I think that failed attempts at creating an article, babel template and a project speak for themselves. Also, I agree with Elephantus: this is probably an elaborate sockpuppet project devised by Đorđe himself. Furthermore, someone said: "About books, Zlatiborians are well-known through the Balkans as very smart and clever nation." I'm having problems comprehending this. A NATION? Gimme a break. Should we create a separate continent for this almighty group of arrogant people that consider themselves to be above everyone else living in the Balkans. Then, there's this: "Zlatiborian is a standardised language, and we write and speak in the way that's been normed by the specialised linguists during the 19th and the 20th centuries." Where is it standardised? Substantiate the claims, and then we'll speak. Đorđe apologised and said that he wouldn't do stuff like this anymore, but here he goes again. Ronline is right - you can't just create 15 wikipedias per country, just because people speak a bit differently. And I'd like to see some evidence that these people are real and that they would get involved in creating the sla-zbr (or whatever) wikipedia. I just hate the branching! Just because Bosnian and Croatian diverged from Serbian, doesn't mean that "Zlatiborian" is. I am against the Serbo-Croatian project because there are many obstacles in the way of reunification and since that is out of the question and since languages in question differ more by the minute, I am totally against making a unified wikipedia that is to unite all south Slavs. That is bullshit and there are 3 wikipedias already (that came from the sh). Now creating Montenegrin and Zlatiborian and Pirotian and Dalmatian and Kosovian and Vojvodian and whatnot would be a waste of time. Since the three languages (sr, bs & hr) went in their own directions, there is no need to crack the Balkans to more pieces. Why can't people just be happy with what they have? They all of a sudden become greedy and start making demands and claims and it all leads to discord. --Dungodung 12:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
There is no ISO code for many languages -- Banyumasan, Samogitian, Võro... but does that mean they're not languages? no. You and your Serbian nationalist friends should go away and let Zlatiborians their own WP in peace!--Node ue 19:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I would've voted against them for the lack of ISO, but that's a different issue. --Dungodung 21:33, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Coat of arms of Zlatibor in deed was created by sample of the coat of arms of Serbia whose part Zlatibor was since 1815. Three mountain peaks on the coat represente three highest peaks of Zlatibor - Tornik (1496 m), Brijac (1480 m), and Cigota (1422 m). I've got no idea of the Slovenian coat of arms, and I don't care for it at all! Slovenes may have any coat of arms they want! Somebody asked where Zlatiborian was standardised. In Uzice and Cajetina. Plus, this is only 2nd time of requesting this wiki, and I was not the one who requested it this time. Mark, thank you for some real sense here. I don't know what does the word sockpupets actually mean, but it seems to me like I've captured Danka, Alexandra, and Nick and made them vote supporting. And finally, about the relation Serbia-Zlatibor: Zlatibor wasn't part of Serbia at all at the first time when Zlatiborians, people of Sorbian origin, came to what is today Zlatibor. Serbian leader Stefan Nemanja conquered Zlatibor c. 1180, and it remained a part of Serbia until Turks conquered Serbia in 1459. During that time, Zlatibor wasn't always a part of Serbia, but it was a part of Bosnia from time to time, too. Since 1459, Zlatibor was free and autonomous. However, Turks came here too, and won Zlatibor in 1463. Zlatibor was a part of Ottoman Empire until 1807. In 1804 Serbs started fighting Turks. In the 19th century, Serb was meaning Othodox at the Balkans, so Montenegrins, Zlatiborians, Macedonians and other Balkan's Orthodox Christians were calling themselves the Serbs, usually in this context: Serbian religion (and the real Serbs were saying Greek religion for Orthodox, and called themselves the Greeks). That's why Zlatiborians helped "their brothers Serbs" in 1804. During those battles, Zlatibor got independence again (in 1807), but Serbia didn't. That's why Serbs made another war with Turks in 1815. In this war, there were no battles at Zlatibor, but Zlatiborians were helping the Serbs in Serbia. Serbia got autonomy, and it conquered Zlatibor again. That was an award for helping! Sad history, isn't it? Sad, but glorious. Jovan Micic, a Zlatiborian whose family is originally from Montenegro, was ruling Zlatibor and he was loyal to Milos Obrenovic, the prince of Serbia. When the House of Karageorgevics won the throne of Serbia, they killed Jovan Micic (he died in Serbian prison in 1844). That was his award for loyality! Zlatibor remained to be a non-autonomous part of Serbia until today, no matter that a Serb doesn't mean an Orthodox any more, and that Serbs weren't good brothers to Zlatiborians. --Ђорђе Д. Божовић 21:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Vojvodina became a part of Yugoslavia as late as the 20th century and yet, believe you me, I feel like I'm 100% Serb. Now, Djordje, to end this charade, you can roughly translate what you said in the sr: village pump so we can all forget about this and part happily ever after. :D --Dungodung 21:33, 6 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose --Dzordzm 04:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC) Another bizarre Serbo-Croatian incarnation. We don't have a Provence wiki, or a central New Jersey wiki, or a Soho wiki. "Zlatiborian" is a minor variation/dialect of Serbian that most of the purported 20-30.000 "speakers" would simply consider the purest Serbian. It pains me to say this but we Balkan people will obviously be in need of a little bit of outside stewardship for a while. Is there some reasonable Westerner to stop this and similar ridicules? --Dzordzm 04:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose --Gorann Andjelkovic 07:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Raetius 10:05, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral I am completely lost on whether this is a language. I am especially confused with the support from Node ue. Is this some wiki joke or something to actaully be taken seriously. I've also looked at the test wiki, which is already fairly developed. If actual textual evidence from a book can be shown, then I might support. Oh, and could the IP be tracked on the users? Falphin 02:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Judging by the testpages, Zlatiborian seems to be a synonym for the ijekavian varieties of south-western Serbia. The traditional language patterns of this region and its folkloric tradition were highly estimated during the Serbian language revival of the 19th century, but due to the fact that today in Serbia the ekavian variety prevails as the only standard, they are now considered substandard and, because of their similarities to the official standards of Croatian and Bosnian, may even be perceived as somewhat foreign by some speakers of the ekavian standard. The innovation of the initiators of this request is that they have proclaimed these varieties a separate language and named it by one locality of the region - presumably their own homeplace; the term Zlatiborian language indeed does not occur in linguistic literature at all, although there are many works about the language variety in question. The original reason for the placement of the request for a Zlatiborian wikipedia seems to be an internal quarrel in Serbian wikipedia, were a user writing in the ijekavian varieties of the said region was accused by others of using incorrect language or allegedly Croatian terms that were considered undesirable on Serbian wikipedia by these users. The recriminated user, feeling unjustly attacked for writing his favourite variety, reacted by placing this request for a separate wikipedia. (See sr:Разговор са корисником:Ђорђе Д. Божовић). At present, it seeems that he is returning to Serbian wikipedia, after having been assured that he will be spared of further unjust attacks. 141.20.240.15 03:18, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Now you should just sit down at your desk, take a pen and start writing a novel... You've got an interesting theme, don't you? First the language switched over from one variety to another, then people who spoke the old variety found a new name for it, then one of them (me, as I can see) came to Serbian Wikipedia and he was writing in the old variety, after which he was accused to write in a non-literal way, and even in a different languge - Croatian. Because of that, he requested a new Wikipedia in his favourite variety - favourite, that's what you said! And look, at present, it seeems that he is returning to Serbian wikipedia, after having been assured that he will be spared of further unjust attacks! Happy end... I shall just say that all my contributions to Serbian Wikipedia were in modern literal Serbian language. No old varieties, no non-literal words, no Croatian or Bosnian or what ever phrases! --Ђорђе Д. Божовић 17:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose --NeX xx:xx, X Xx 2006 (UTC)
  • oppose im just not convinced and it seems to be written nearly identically to serbian. and the proponant seems to be a shifty charicter Qrc2006 00:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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