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Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Norwegian

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submitted verification final decision

This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

A committee member provided the following comment:

  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code no (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Norwegian Language name in English
Language name norsk Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q9043 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality no indication Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL no.wikivoyage.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name Wikivoyage "Wikivoyage" in your language
Project namespace Wikivoyage usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace Wikivoyage--diskusjon "Wikivoyage talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:WikiVoyage-logo.svg This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Europe/Oslo "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Proposal

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Norwegian is the official language of Norway, with over 4 million native speakers. The test project at Incubator has a lot of pages, so I think it's the right time to request the creation of a separate subdomain. DraconicDark (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Added a note at w:no:Wikipedia:Torget#Norsk Wikivoyage. — Jeblad 11:52, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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  • I'm not sure if creating this Wikivoyage under no.wikivoyage.org is proper or not, because Norwegian is a macrolanguage as pointed many times by @Jeblad:, if this test Wikivoyage is Bokmål only, then I would Oppose this (in this case, please can you consider move this test project to Wy/nb?), but if this test project can also include Nynorsk, then I may Support. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • About the language code: The code “no” is a macro code, and if that is being used then both Norwegian Nynorsk and Norwegian Bokmål should be supported. Checking a few pages and it seems like most of them are Norwegian Bokmål. Should the project be sustainable they should probably have both language variants, to get more contributors.
    About the size of the expected community: Comparing to recent changes at Swedish and Finish it seems like the activity would be to marginal to support a community. Norway has slightly less population than Finland, and activity at Finish Wikivoyage should be comparable. — Jeblad 11:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per above, this test Wikivoyage must be splitted to a Bokmål one and a Nynorsk one. --60.26.9.247 07:46, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not Norwegian

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  • "Åtte av de mest populære bosetninger blant turister " [[1]] is not Norwegian.
  • "Den norske Wikipedia er en av de mest besøkte norske innholdssiden på nettet, og derfor når noen destinasjonsartikler får mest mulig syn på norsk Wikipedia i sommersesongen, dette kan ofte hjelpe oss forstå hva er de stedene som for øyeblikket er mest interessante for norske høyttalere. " [[2]] is not Norwegian. In addition w:no:Høyttaler means loudspeaker
  • "fra den tilsvarende engelske utgaven av Wikivoyage, hvor i mange tilfeller innholdet har blitt utviklet over flere år av mange erfarne turgåere. " [[3]] is not Norwegian. Turgåer is someone going for a walk on foot. The word stems from w:no:Tur and to walk.
  • "Ti av de mest populære destinasjoner som ligger utenfor lokaliteter: " [[4]] is not Norwegian.
  • How many users have edited this site? Is it possible to get a list of all the editors? This is probably the only way to find the amount of editors who are able to write correct Norwegian. The few samples I found shows that every page on the site needs to be checked to make certain that the pages actually are in Norwegian. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 13:39, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Dyveldi: This can simply be queried by [5], can't you, or you wanna ping all of them? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 13:51, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to Liuxinyu970226 for providing a link to the statistics.
- The statistics show that User:Wikijunkie have made 1532 of the total 1735 edits. 142 edits is made by User:ויקיג'אנקי and the rest of the edits is about 3,5% of the total. I do not recognize any of the usernames as regular editors on Norwegian WP.
- 1532 edits is a lot of work and I wish to make it clear that the work in itself should be respected even though the result have some problems.
- User:Wikijunkie have been asking for help on Norwegian WP on about 30 userpages and on w:no:Wikipedia:Tinget (Village pump) [[6]]. The result shows that he was not able to genereate any interest.
- The user seems to be mostly active in Hebrew and have 70 666 edits on he.wikipedia.org [[7]]. Apart from asking for help on Norwegian WP he have added links to this project in 6 articles to the dictionaries (parlør) made here, but have not otherwise been active in Norwegian.
- User:ויקיג'אנקי have no edits on Norwegian WP and 121 730 in Hebrew [[8]].
- Among the things that needs to be fixed is turgåere and høyttalere, but consequently all the articles needs to be read and checked for similar mistakes. In addition Wy/no/Engelsk parlør and Wy/no/Dansk parlør needs to have the suggested pronunciation fixed. I am not able to recognize what sort of sound alphabet is used and the pronunciations look a bit strange to me. This means that the rest of the "parlør"/dictionaries needs the attention of someone who speaks the different languages in addition to speaking Norwegian.
- I do not know how Wikijunkie have learned Norwegian, but I am afraid that he needs to learn more. He should be given a chance to revise this site. Furthermore the site needs editors who edit on the other no/nn/nb-projects to be viable. There is far to few editors on the project to let it fly on its own yet. I think that moving this project from the incubator is premature. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 18:03, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, just ignore my 10 edits, all of them are just because I was found Scribunto errors in the test. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, I found @Gálaniitoluodda: who has 3 edits in that, and @Af420: has one. May be if both can fix the grammar errors. For the time being, this test project seems very like based on Google Translate-based Norwegian, which looks very like mixed Bokmål and Nynorsk grammars, and hence non of the nb/nn-N users can understand the entire project. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:01, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. If Google Translate is involved it explains the two sentences I quoted above. I do not understand what the sentences is supposted to mean. Google is neither Bokmål nor Nynorsk it just does not produce Norwegian. If Google is involved you will need to locate the original text to find out what the original says and do the translation all over again. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 05:53, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, did not answer all of the question. All Norwegian users will be able understand both Bokmål and Nynorsk. The difference is one of dialect although they are listed as separate languages. All Norwegian users are not proficient in writing both though. The text will in these cases be quite understandable but not strictly correct one or the other. Here we have a choice of words which renders the sentences not legible. I am not able to find out what the quoted sentences should be in English. I would be guessing if I tried. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 06:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and Questions from LangCom

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Comment Comment User:WikiJunkie and User:ויקיג'אנקי are the same person. (The Hebrew is the transcription of "Wikijunkie".)
Question Question: Is there an actual fluent-Norwegian-speaking community here at all (Bokmål or Nynorsk)?
Question Question: There is a decent amount of content here, but if it's all junky Google-translate content, is it worth preserving?
Preliminarily, if it is worth preserving the content, then I'm inclined to mark the request eligible, with the important caveat (to be memorialized both here and at incubator:Wy/no) that long before final approval, the community must decide among these four options:

  • It is only Bokmål. In that case, the test would be moved from Wy/no to Wy/nb.
  • It is only Nynorsk. In that case, the test would be moved from Wy/no to Wy/nn.
  • It contains both, and should be divided. In that case, we'd divide it.
  • It contains both, and will remain that way. In that case, it can stay at Wy/no, and be approved as no.wikivoyage.org eventually.

StevenJ81 (talk) 15:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but User:ויקיג'אנקי is not my Account. It is User:WikiJunkie not me. Please look at the correct spelling of the Username. My Username is Wikijunkie with a small "j" in the middle and I am not involved here. --Wikijunkie (talk) 16:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. My mistake, and my apology. Corrected above. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, the initial mistake using lowercase j was mine. I apologize. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 17:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Comment - answers to questions. This does not seem to be neither Bokmål or Nynorsk. It is not really Norwegian at present. [[9]] says Fransk er et rumensk språk which in english means that French is a Rumenian language ... e som "i" eller som 'e' i "en" is clearly not correct pronounciation, likewise y som 'j' i "ja". I can really not make head nor tails of the pronounciation in the different parlør. And looking at this [[10]] it is very clear that this is not Norwegian. Some of it is possible to understand, some not. Every page needs to be checked by users fluent in Norwegian. The content probably comes from a different language Wikivoyage. The problem is that none of the pages reveal where the original text comes from. It is not always apparent what the text is supposed to say and to give the site a workover it will be necessary to find out what the original said. Whithout a source for the text a retranslation will be difficult. This community does not seem to have Norwegian-speaking users. It is not in any state to be moved from the incubator. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 17:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If we have reason to believe that this was copied from somewhere else without attribution and translated, then this test project is a copyright violation and should be deleted. The place to request that would be incubator:I:RFD. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:23, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I thought translation (possibly not complete, but partly) from another Wikivoyage would have been ok? It should have been stated outright though if that is the case. The quality of the language is the issue. Wherever the original might have come from does not really matter. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 20:12, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Copying from another Wikivoyage is allowable ... IF there is attribution. If there is no attribution, then copying is construed as violating the terms of the licensing agreements these wikis use. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:54, 11 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Following those responds, I think that we should delete the de facto Wy/no project, and invite the actual Norwegian native speakers to restart this project from scratch. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:46, 18 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Queried WikiJunkie on Incubator. Likely we will delete the test there, then reject this request as being based on hoax content added to Incubator. @DraconicDark: That's not intended as a negative reflection on you, just to be clear. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:33, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@StevenJ81: No offense taken. The only reason I made the request was that I thought there was enough content. Seeing as there is actually almost none (upon closer inspection, I see that the Incubator test is full of empty pages, meaning I was tricked), rejecting this request is perfectly reasonable. The only thing I ask is that, should there be actual interest in this project in the future, a new request should be allowed. DraconicDark (talk) 19:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Request for help from Norwegian speakers

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@Dyveldi and any other Norwegian speakers participating:
Would you mind going over to this Incubator project and looking at a couple of things for me? In particular, I would like to know whether at least the templates here are in reasonably usable Norwegian. If so:

  1. Probably that infrastructure should be retained for the use of anyone trying to do this in the future; and
  2. If there is such infrastructure, then I think I'd like to ask you to fix just the main page (incubator:Wy/no/Hovedside so that it is in good Norwegian (probably both Bokmål and Nynorsk).

We'll delete the rest of the content of the mainspace (unless you say some pages are completely ok). And if you say the templates are not usable, we'll delete everything. Thanks for your help. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:20, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Re 2) Seems someone have decided on bokmål/riksmål [[11]]. This tallies with my impression. I find very very few words that may be considered nynorsk and the few I find might as well be bokmål. Trying to write some in bokmål and some in nynorsk just will not work. You'll get a lot of "ei/en bok" (a book), "en/ein mann" (a man), "en/ein turist" (a tourist), "en/ei reise" (a voyage) etc. if you tried to write both languages in the same article.
Re 2) I'll need a mainpage which can be translated. I am not sure I quite understand the main page as it is now [[12]] and it is seriously different from the English Wikivoyage mainpage [[13]] which does really not contain anything to translate.
Re 1) I tried to search for templates, but the search turned out to give absolutely no results. Are anyone able to provide a link to a list of the templates on the site? I can try to do something with the templates if I just can find them and understand the purpose of the template.
Re 1) Tried to take a look at English Wikivoyage [[14]] and I'd go bonkers trying to fix that page. Someone have not figured out that what we call "thick L" is a r-sound [[15]] and forgotten to check a proper dictionary for the existence of some words. (Norwegian definitely is not a very large language but Old Norse is the basis of English and before William the Conceror brought French legal lingo to the isles the difference was only dialect. This clearly now belongs in the history books.) I am guessing the English Wikivoyage is in need of quite a bit of fixing as well and how much work will someone spend on writing about the same places in Norwegian? But I'll see if I can fix the templates. Please ping me. Even though I watch this page a ping is a welcome reminder. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 19:50, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dyveldi: Templates are at incubator:Special:PrefixIndex/Template:Wy/no.
As for an example of a mainpage, look at the templates first. If there is something worthwhile there, I'll draft a temporary main page for you in English. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:57, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'll take a look, probably tomorrow. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 19:49, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
StevenJ81. I did a few changes, se Talk:Requests for new languages/Wikivoyage Norwegian. Took a look at all the templates listed but they did not contain much text. A few seemed to contain instructions and I am unsure of what the instructions are supposed to be. I am not an expert on templates, rather the contrary. I hope the short comments I made are useful to someone who knows more about templates. --ツ regards. Dyveldi ☯ prat ✉ post 10:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dyveldi: Thank you. I know templates, so I'll look next. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:27, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion on talk page. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment

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Naturally, a Wikivoyage project in Norwegian should be eligible. In this particular case, however, the discussion above makes it quite clear that the test contents were not actually in Norwegian. Furthermore, while there many useful templates and modules imported from various other projects to this test project, there was no attribution whatsoever, making all of them technical copyright violations. Accordingly, this test has been deleted in its entirety.

  • For this reason, I am marking this particular request as rejected—not because no Norwegian Wikivoyage can be eligible, but because the particular Wikivoyage test described here cannot be eligible.

A new community of Norwegian speakers is welcome to create a new Norwegian Wikivoyage from the beginning at incubator:Wy/no. However, before you choose to do that, let me suggest the following:

  • If you intend to allow both Bokmål and Nynorsk content, then create the project at incubator:Wy/no.
  • If you intend a new Wikivoyage to be written only in Bokmål or only in Nynorsk, it would be better if you would start the project at incubator:Wy/nb or incubator:Wy/nn respectively.

For LangCom: StevenJ81 (talk) 15:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
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