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Tell us about Lombard Wikipedia

general opinion

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Borderline. Some italian people, that understand one of the lombard and south swiss languages, are trying to save it. No real community is never born there, no real "wiki-senior" writer on it. At the moment is plain shit (sorry but is plain truth, in my opinion) I hope that someone could maintain it before I leave it. The problem is, obviously in my opinion, the lombardy-as-a-nation and lombard-is-a-unique-language POV. Also silly ISO language definition is a problem (lumbard IS NOT one language whatever ISO said)--DracoRoboter 23:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC) Scusatemi per l'inglese maccheronico: riscrivo il concetto più sotto in italiano.[reply]

  1. La wiki lombarda è borderline. Nonostante gli sforzi di una certa quantità di utenti della wiki in italiano, che ultimamente hanno cercato di salvarla dallo sconcio creato in precedenza, rimane ancora una schifezza. Non è stata creata una vera comunità, e non esiste una vera cultura wiki tra chi ci scrive. In prima persona ho cercato di dare una mano ma mi sto velocemente stancando: spero che qualcun altro avrà la voglia di fare manutenzione dopo che me ne sarò andato. Il fatto che una buona parte dei (pochi) utenti paiano considerare la Lombardia una nazione, oltre a pensare che il lombardo esista come lingua unica, sono a mio parere dei gravi problemi. (il lombardo non esiste come linguaggio unico e il fatto che wikipedia continui a fidarsi dell'ISO in merito a queste questioni mi pare immensamente stupido)

The above user doesn't fit comfortably with this wikipedia: that's his right. But this is NOT his wikipedia, it's a wikipedia which he is against (BTW he doesn't agree with wikimedia standards as ISO). Some people asked to close this project, mainly on political grounds: simply beacause they do not think that something not Italian-speaking should exist in Italy. (Please search a page like "Closure of Lombard wikipedia" here in meta, amongst proposal). This project is now awakening from that shock: that's what the above user and other ones would like to prevent, against wikimedia's general goals. User:Olve said that this fact could have put the Italian chapter in a grim light: I don't know, but the above user really is in. The quality of this project is still poor: the reasons above should widely justify that: it has been destroyed (thousands articles deleted). Now a community is forming again.

I think that it is important to support bilinguism, 'cause it is the same to support peace, inter-comprehension and tolerance. I think that lombard Wikipedia can do well in this sense. I think that it is not tolerable to read that an admin speaks angrly against our minority language that is endangered in Lombardy (read the Red Book of Endangered Languages)(Our language is not in danger in Southern Switzerland probably because the Confederation has a different politic about its minority languages). I hope that EU's multilinguistic politic will change the nationalistic way of doing of the Italian State, but it will be difficoult untill the italian schools teach that italian language is the best and all the others are shit, minority languages includes. --Br3nn0s 15:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm against this kind of irritating nonsense not against lmo.wikipedia. Anyway: il mio inglese purtroppo non è abbastanza buono per spiegare in che modo la realtà è stata distorta nella descrizione qui sopra. --DracoRoboter 17:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC).[reply]

il lombardo è una lingua? si? no? boh? mi sembra una discussione tanto inutile, l'importante è che la wiki ci lasci scrivere in lingua madre. Però tu spiegami se è nato prima l'ovo o la gallina e ti dirò se il lombardo è una lingua o meno! ciao! --Aldedogn 16:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

lmo.wiki

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Questionaire

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Contributors

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  • Wikimedia Statistics can be difficult to interprete. What is your impression, how many steady contributors do you have?
  1. Less that 10. I have the impression, without any proof, that some of historical and new users are sockpuppet, or maybe meatpuppet, of the same person. --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. 10 to 20--West 13:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Many articles seem to have been deleted on the (self-commenting) political ground that there is no Lombard language--West 13:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    La me scusa: se g'entra che la roba chì? A parte il fatto che non è vero --DracoRoboter 21:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree with West. --Br3nn0s 14:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Less than 10. The >90,000 deleted articles were not deleted on political ground, but because: 1) they were bot-generated junk with more English than Lombard text; 2) they were written using an ortography that, at least at the time, was unpublished and hence constituted original research. I don't know what's the status right now. Note that nobody is debating the existence of Lombard languages, but rather the existence of a single Lombard language. Balabiot 06:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are your contributors mostly native speakers?
  1. yes. Anyway "lumbard native speakers" in my opinion, usually are italian native speaker that knows also Milan (Bergamo, Como...) language --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Generally yes, but not always.--West 13:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree with West. Also in other nations there is bilinguism, such as in Belgium or Canada or Spain. --Br3nn0s 14:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Yes, their should be. Keep in mind that there is no organisation structured to teach any kind of Lombardian dialect outside the native region. Pratically one can learn the dialect only living side by side and talking with people alredy fluent of this. --Bramfab 08:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where do your contributors live (regions/country)?
  1. Lombardy, south switzerland. --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Lombardy Southern Switzerland, Eastern Piedmont, potential contributors (but not actual as far as I know) also from Sicily--West 13:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree with West. --Br3nn0s 14:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Mainly from northern part of Lombardy and Canton Ticino from Switzerland, contribution from other locations are usually more related to technical stuff (links, templates ....)--Bramfab 08:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How common is it that your contributors meet in real life?
  1. Never (AFAIK). --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I meet two --West 13:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I meet somebody, three or four. --Br3nn0s 14:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other Wikipedias

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  • Do you have special contacts with another Wikipedias (maybe in related languages)?
  1. No, I don't. I plan EN.WP--West 13:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. it.wiki (also admin there) --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. it.wiki, en.wiki. --Br3nn0s 14:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you translate a lot from other Wikipedias? Which ones?
  1. never. --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. For the moment I work on templates and technicalities.--West 13:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. templates and something else from english, french and italian ones. --Br3nn0s 14:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Organization and support

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  • Is there a Wikimedia chapter in your country? How does your language relate to it?
  1. it depends. There is no "lombardy country", anyway WMItaly do exist and lombardy is in Italy --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC) I live in Italy an WMI exist. WMI tries to support all languages spoken in Italy. --DracoRoboter 21:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Dont make confusion. We are not speaking about politics, but from a linguistic point of view. Lombard language is spoken in Lombardy, that is in Italy, but Canton Ticino and southern part of canton Graubunden are in Switzerland. It is a great mistake to misc politics and Wikipedia. Stop to think about italian as the language of he nation Italy. Italian is spoken also in Southern America by the italian migrants. The nationalist concept that you defend is absolutely unpolite and it'd not have to do with wikipedia. Keep your political ideas far from wikipedia. --Br3nn0s 14:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Veramente ho solo scritto che non esiste una nazione lombarda (cosa oggettivamente vera). Comunque non avevo capito la domanda, pardon. --DracoRoboter 21:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there work groups in other organizations about Wikipedia?
  1. No chapter. It could be thought that WMItaly seems hostile (see the proposal of closing and the votes therein)--West 13:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No chapter, but I don't think that WMItaly seems hostile: only some people that don't understand that their political nationalism that is against all minority languages that are present in Italy have nothing to do with wikipedia. --Br3nn0s 14:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. No chapter, also because of the perceived (I would say alleged) hostility of WMI by the current contributors. Balabiot 06:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your Wikipedia and the linguistic community

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  • Is there a language institution for your language, like an Academy, or a club of people interested in your language? Do you have contact with them?
  1. dunno --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. CENTRO DI DIALETTOLOGIA E ETNOGRAFIA - Bellinzona (Tessin-CH) - CIRCOLO FILOLOGICO MILANESE (Milan) DUCAT DE PIASSA PONTIDA (Bergamo); probably this list is incomplete --West 13:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Yes, the list is incomplete, also the Lombardy Region with its Assessorato alle Culture, Identità e Autonomie della Regione Lombardia that promoted Centro delle Culture Lombarde - Busto Arsizio (VA, Lombardy, IT).
  • Who (else) supports you?
  1. mom (not all the time :( ) --DracoRoboter 00:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Nobody--West 13:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. friendship with some cultural associations and many friends. --Br3nn0s 15:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Some local associations are active for teaching and preserve local dialects, unfortunately dialect stimulate also the interest of political groups trying to promote "their" dialect wisdom for not languages purposes.--Bramfab 08:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How looks your public outreach for your edition? Do you have flyers, give lectures, trainings etc.?
  1. N/A. No --DracoRoboter 00:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. They are planned in the next future --West 13:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Yes, Circolo Filologico Milanese http://www.filologico.it/ has many courses of lombard language, and also Vus de l'Insubria Association http://www.giurnal.org/pagine/curs.htm, and also many other local association in Bergamo http://www.ducatodipiazzapontida.it/, Varese http://www.malnate.org/CALENDARIO%2006/005%20MAGGIO%2006%20indice.html, Como http://www.famigliacomasca.net/ and many others. The list is not complete.
    do you speak about wikipedia or about languages? --DracoRoboter 21:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you get feedback from readers?
  1. no --DracoRoboter 00:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. yes --West 13:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. yes, many readers. --Br3nn0s 15:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What other encyclopedias exist in your language?
  1. none (afaik) --DracoRoboter 00:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. none --West 13:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. There is a project that involves Lombardy Region Administration. --Br3nn0s 15:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Content

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  • Does your edition concentrates on certain topics, like your region and language, or Latin Wikipedia on Roman history and Christianity?
  1. no --DracoRoboter 00:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. no, it doesn't--West 13:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. no. --Br3nn0s 15:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did your edition enjoy text donations, for example from older encyclopedias?
  1. no --DracoRoboter 00:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. no, it didn't--West 13:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. no. --Br3nn0s 15:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Language

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  • Is there a generally accepted norm about your language (spelling, dictionary, pronunciation)?
  1. A (unique) lombardy language do not exist so... (there is a norm about Milan language, e.g., but Milan language is not the same language as Bergamo-Language) --DracoRoboter 00:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Of course, the above user is not a linguist and he seem not to categorise exactly what he speaks about. There are essentially three norms: "phonetic", "classical" and etymological.
  3. Yes. --Br3nn0s 15:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. I agree with the (not signed) second user above. However, it is imprecise. Lombard languages form a continuum of dialects, not all of them mutually intelligible. For Milanese/Ticinese languages the phonetic and classical norms are used. For Eastern languages (Bergamo) I think that the most used norm is phonetic. Balabiot 06:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  5. First at all what is named as Lombard broadly covers two differents dialect realities (spite of whatsover is written about by not native speakers) resulting from the separate history of Lombardy, which generated different norms ("phonetic", "classical" and etymological) and different basic vocabulary --Bramfab 08:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How do you deal with different spellings, dialects etc. (like B.E. lift and A.E. elevator)?
  1. I try to fight with users 'till blood spring out. But seriously...: there are a lot of different languages in lombardy so we just can't deal. --DracoRoboter 00:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. We allow maximal freedom of use, even if this can cause confusion: this seems to be friendly, whereas the above does not --West 13:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. I agree with West. --Br3nn0s 15:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. At present the situation cannot be managed in a homogenous way due to the coexistance of differents languages, so I'm agree with one conclusion of West: definitively there is confusion --Bramfab 08:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See also

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