Wikimedia Australia/Meeting 2/Log

Wikimedia Australia Meeting 2, April 24 2006. Times are UTC+10 (EST).

[20:00] <enochlau> meeting's on at 8?
[20:00] <cartman02au> meant to be yes :)
[20:01] <Angela> are we expecting anyone else or shall we start now?
[20:01] <Jude> I'm here.
[20:02] <Bduke> I'm here, but it is the first time I have ever used IRC
[20:02] <EuropracBHIT> I'm here.
[20:02] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you.
[20:02] <cartman02au> I'm here of course
[20:02] <Angela> welcome to IRC Bduke :)
[20:02] <cartman02au> welcome bduke
[20:02] <Bduke> Thanks
[20:03] <Angela> "goals" is the first thing on the agenda, which seems a good place to start.
[20:03] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, what do we want to do?
[20:04] <Angela> Very broadly, we should aim to share the goals of the Wikimedia Foundation.
[20:04] <EuropracBHIT> Promoting free knowledge and content?
[20:05] <cartman02au> agreed, else we would not be a chapter of the WMF
[20:05] <enochlau> yes, but that's all a little too vague
[20:05] <Angela> "growth and development of open content, social software WikiWiki-based projects" and support of the projects basically.
[20:05] <enochlau> i think setting goals of a concrete nature would also be advisable
[20:05] <cartman02au> what is "social software"?
[20:05] <enochlau> sounds good
[20:06] <EuropracBHIT> Like blogs, wikis, Technorati, chat ...
[20:06] <EuropracBHIT> And podcasts!
[20:06] <enochlau> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_software
[20:06] <enochlau> lol
[20:06] <Angela> cartman02au: "Social software enables people to rendezvous, connect or collaborate through computer-mediated communication and to form online communities." according to a certain encyclopedia :)
[20:06] <EuropracBHIT> And like Whiteboard and Writely - colloborative word processors.
[20:06] <EuropracBHIT> What about getting a constitution written and a physical presence?
[20:07] <cartman02au> i understand now
[20:07] <EuropracBHIT> (Is that what you mean by concrete goals, Enoch).
[20:07] <enochlau> Yes, that's what I meant - some real things we can do
[20:07] <enochlau> although we could still be a little more specific
[20:07] <enochlau> for example, specifically what kind of open content?
[20:07] <enochlau> for schools? austalian encyclopedic content?
[20:08] <cartman02au> I think both
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> Both would be good.
[20:08] <Angela> pfctdayelise suggested we form an organisation group, which could be one goal (maybe even during this meeting)
[20:08] <enochlau> ok
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> What would the organisation group do?
[20:08] <EuropracBHIT> Hi pfctdayelise.
[20:08] <Angela> see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Meeting_2#Organisation_group
[20:08] <cartman02au> I think that we should encourage people to participate in WMF projects
[20:08] <pfctdayelise> hello!
[20:08] <enochlau> hey
[20:09] <cartman02au> Bron: Basically, it would be a group that investigates the forms the organisation could take
[20:09] <cartman02au> then reports back
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> I see. Within a particular timeframe?
[20:09] <enochlau> that sounds like a good idea
[20:09] <enochlau> how busy are people currently?>
[20:09] <Angela> I think it would be good to start working out a timeframe.
[20:09] <pfctdayelise> yeah, me too
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> I have two days a week with TAFE committments.
[20:09] <EuropracBHIT> But on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays I can work with Wikimedia Australia things.
[20:09] <pfctdayelise> by the next ICR meeting? a month?
[20:10] <cartman02au> I am busy as hell this week but from next week I will be quiet again
[20:10] <Angela> The timeline should include things like when the documents will be finalised, when we will actually incorporate, when we get approval to be a chapter, etc.
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> Before the end of the financial year.
[20:10] <Angela> what is ICR?
[20:10] <cartman02au> we need to remember that the documents are dependent on the structure
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> I think that was a slip of the keyboard ...
[20:10] <enochlau> why dont we aim to get structure and documents in a month?
[20:10] <cartman02au> each structure has a different requirement
[20:10] <enochlau> and we do this on the meta wiki
[20:10] <enochlau> so it can be viewed by all
[20:10] <enochlau> and commented by all at all times
[20:10] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you.
[20:11] <pfctdayelise> I meant IRC, sorry
[20:11] <cartman02au> enoch: I think that is reasonable
[20:11] <aussieman> internet relay chat what you are doing now
[20:11] <EuropracBHIT> So we're looking at basically three structures: company, co-operative and charity?
[20:11] <cartman02au> I was looking at the UK guy's documents and they are *similar* to what we would need for a company
[20:12] <cartman02au> no, company, co-op or association
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> What are the differences?
[20:12] <pfctdayelise> they're not mutually exclusive: most/all charities would be set up as companies (ie have ABNd)
[20:12] <cartman02au> a charity can be in any of those forms
[20:12] <pfctdayelise> * ABNs
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> I see.
[20:12] <enochlau> oh right, so a charity is not a type of organisation - it's one of the other types but registered as a charity?
[20:12] <cartman02au> yes
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> So maybe write out the charity as a company?
[20:12] <EuropracBHIT> I feel most comfortable with the association model.
[20:12] <cartman02au> e.g. the one I used to be involved in was an incorporated association
[20:12] <Angela> The structure might depend on the goals though. If a goal is to raise donations, it makes more sense to be a charity.
[20:13] <enochlau> could someone quickly summarise the 3?
[20:13] <Bduke> Agreed - incorporated association
[20:13] <EuropracBHIT> Yes - one goal can be to raise donations.
[20:13] <EuropracBHIT> But donations for WHAT?
[20:13] <cartman02au> co-operative: operates in one state (too expensive to operate in others) and sort of operates for the benefit of members
[20:14] <pfctdayelise> donations for whatever we think up next :)
[20:14] <enochlau> donations: hosting local projects, somehow find a way to get money to the US organisation if possible?
[20:14] <EuropracBHIT> No, I want it to operate in all states.
[20:14] * Mark_Ryan is now known as Mark_Away
[20:14] <enochlau> or do what the germans do - provide services in germany for the benefit of the US organisation
[20:14] <EuropracBHIT> Or at least be recognised in all states.
[20:14] <EuropracBHIT> :-)
[20:15] <cartman02au> association: registered in a single state, can operate australia wide upon application to ASIC. Allowed a few assets and is to operate according to it's founding documents. All money to be spent on goals
[20:15] <Angela> If one goal is going to be promotion of Wikimedia projects in Australia, the donations could go towards that. For example, publicity materials to show on stands at events.
[20:15] <Bduke> Associations can incorporate in one State and operate in all
[20:15] <EuropracBHIT> There are a few interesting events we could show close to now. I'll research. Thank you Brian.
[20:16] <cartman02au> company: most flexible, in the case of a non-profit company - registered australia wide but requires auditing
[20:16] <cartman02au> bduke: yep, you get a ARBN for $330 form ASIC to operate auswide
[20:16] <cartman02au> *from
[20:16] <enochlau> cool, thanks for the clarifications
[20:16] <EuropracBHIT> Thanks as well.
[20:16] <cartman02au> they are rough and quick ones
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> Who will be on the organising committee?
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> And what will that committee do?
[20:17] <cartman02au> associations and companies are similar. A company can do more but costs more to operate
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> (Sorry if I haven't been following the agenda ... )
[20:17] <enochlau> "Structure group (I hesitate to say committee) - perhaps we can get a small group (3-5) of people interested in hashing out the details of WMA's structure together. They can go away and do all the research about what is the best format for us, bring back their conclusions by a certain date, everyone can offer their comments and then we can move forward."
[20:17] <enochlau> (from the meta page)
[20:17] <EuropracBHIT> I think we should be an association and then after a certain time be a company.
[20:18] <EuropracBHIT> The co-operative is nice from a values point of view, but I don't know how it works really. How it will be practical (or even if).
[20:18] <cartman02au> My idea on what to spend money on could be providing funds to other educational organisations as well to assist them to use wikis, participate in projects, etc
[20:18] <pfctdayelise> I think it's better to be more formal, ie incorporated.
[20:18] <EuropracBHIT> I agree.
[20:18] <Angela> would te main difference with being an association mean we couldn't get tax-free donations?
[20:18] <cartman02au> The co-op is great in terms of values but is horrendously expensive to operate nationally
[20:18] <EuropracBHIT> And take the first steps towards that.
[20:18] <EuropracBHIT> I hate expense ...
[20:19] <pfctdayelise> we can also spend money on supporting aus wikipedians in their efforts to promote/produce content for wikimedia projects - eg Wikinewsies
[20:19] <cartman02au> Angela: An association could get tax free status
[20:19] <Angela> Ok.
[20:19] <EuropracBHIT> And Wikibookians.
[20:19] <EuropracBHIT> Right now I'm on the Languages Wikijunior book.
[20:19] <pfctdayelise> it seems like it will be hard to get tax free donations no matter what the form, right?
[20:19] <Angela> It seems like a long process, but not impossible.
[20:19] <enochlau> is any familiar with the requirements for charity status?
[20:19] <cartman02au> ANgela: The thing is would the turnover be less than $500,000
[20:19] <pfctdayelise> EuropracBHIT: everyone, but wikinewsies strike me as possibly needing funds (eg for press registration)
[20:19] <EuropracBHIT> Everything above $2 is tax deductible ... not free.
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> Yes I agree.
[20:20] <cartman02au> We can have income tax exemption and deductible gift - they are easy
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> For the Commonwealth Games and things ... like accreditation.
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> What sort of funds ... what ballpark ... for the wikinewsies?
[20:20] <cartman02au> the fundraising licence is the issue, although if members donate money then that is not required AFAIK
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> Donating money would be good to start with.
[20:20] <EuropracBHIT> Any sources of seed money?
[20:21] <Angela> The Foundation will give a grant to get the chapter started.
[20:21] <cartman02au> If we are approved by the foundation they will assist
[20:21] <cartman02au> we both wrote that at the same time
[20:21] <Angela> :)
[20:21] <EuropracBHIT> So we go through the Chapters committee?
[20:21] <cartman02au> kind of
[20:21] <cartman02au> the chapter approval process is a bit odd at present
[20:21] <enochlau> What does it take to be approved?
[20:22] <cartman02au> ChapCom looks at it, sends it to foundation's legal people
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> Have you approved a chapter before in your short time?
[20:22] <cartman02au> yes
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> So we give them a proposal.
[20:22] <cartman02au> Wikimedia Switzerland
[20:22] <pfctdayelise> we have Angela on our team, it can't be too hard ;)
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> So we follow the Swiss strategy.
[20:22] <cartman02au> We show the ChapCom the founding documents
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> That would be constitution, rules and mission statement.
[20:22] <EuropracBHIT> And all we've talked about here.
[20:23] <EuropracBHIT> Any other documents needed to make?
[20:23] <Angela> It's basically chapcom and legal approval of the bylaws.
[20:23] <EuropracBHIT> Are the bylaws in a stage where they can be approved, or do they have holes? They look right to me.
[20:23] <Bduke> Sorry. What is ChapCom?
[20:23] <cartman02au> ChapCom looks at them from a "foundation" point of view. ChapCom then sends it to the foundation's lawyers who will pick them apart. ChapCom gets it back, looks at them along with the lawyer's changes then sends to the board
[20:23] <cartman02au> Chapters committee
[20:23] <pfctdayelise> ...what bylaws?
[20:23] <EuropracBHIT> So the lawyers fix the holes.
[20:24] <cartman02au> lawyers make the holed
[20:24] <cartman02au> *holes
[20:24] <EuropracBHIT> Um, the ones in the constitution?
[20:24] <EuropracBHIT> No, the rules!
[20:24] <Angela> The bylaws are basically the rules, I think.
[20:24] <EuropracBHIT> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Draft_Rules
[20:24] <EuropracBHIT> These?
[20:24] <enochlau> dont rules go into the constitution?
[20:24] <cartman02au> We had an issue with Wikimedia CH, their relationship with the foundation is written pretty much the same as Wikimedia DE and FR, it wasn't any good this time
[20:25] <EuropracBHIT> So Wikimedia is an association incorporated in the state of Victoria ...
[20:25] <cartman02au> the constitution should give us a rough framework
[20:25] <EuropracBHIT> And it goes by the rules of Victorian law ...
[20:25] <Angela> See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/bylaws for an example
[20:25] <EuropracBHIT> (It has a lot of waffle in it. Article 3 looks like what we want ...)
[20:25] <pfctdayelise> hm I don't know why they're called "bylaws", they looks suspiciously similar to a regular ol' constitution, but ok
[20:25] <enochlau> yeh
[20:26] <enochlau> "Please note: the Memorandum of Association will probably replace these bylaws - please work/comment on that document instead."
[20:26] <enochlau> so it seems as if this is getting superceded by a formal document
[20:26] <enochlau> with legal status?
[20:26] <cartman02au> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/NSW_incorp_assoc_constitution.pdf
[20:26] <Spook> sorry to interupt, but whats being discussed?
[20:26] <cartman02au> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/NSW_incorp_assoc_rules.pdf
[20:26] <EuropracBHIT> What about things like meetings, committees ... where are they written? And when will they be written inside?
[20:26] <pfctdayelise> yes, let's copy the UK's :) it looks pretty good
[20:26] <EuropracBHIT> Thanks for the links, Nathan.
[20:27] <cartman02au> Spook: We are discussing the formal documents needed to become a chapter
[20:27] <EuropracBHIT> Board, chair and dissolution seem pretty similar to what we would need.
[20:27] <EuropracBHIT> And I like the 99 years rule.
[20:27] <pfctdayelise> is this really a free document cartman02au ? :P
[20:27] <EuropracBHIT> And um the membership database ...
[20:27] <cartman02au> which?
[20:27] <pfctdayelise> both of them
[20:27] <Angela> Whether it's constitution, or bylaws, or whatever, the thing the foundation needs to approve is mostly what our relationship with them is and whether our goals meet these. If they approve of that, we get a license to use the name Wikimedia and the logos.
[20:27] <EuropracBHIT> But it's a model that we can make a free document from.
[20:27] <cartman02au> elise: If I remember rightly I wrote them both with my old charity
[20:28] <EuropracBHIT> We have a moral relationship with the foundation.
[20:28] <EuropracBHIT> Surely they ought to approve of that?
[20:28] <EuropracBHIT> What goals meet the 'moral relationship' aspect?
[20:28] <cartman02au> The moral relationship needs to be stated
[20:28] <Angela> it's partly a check that we're not claiming anything we shouldn't be, like "control over the projects"
[20:28] <cartman02au> at the same time we can not also appear to have a legal relationship with WMF
[20:28] <pfctdayelise> OK. so who is interested in being part of a group to hash out some specifics of models WMA could take, over the next month?
[20:28] <EuropracBHIT> As we would do if we were donating money to them.
[20:29] <EuropracBHIT> I'm interested.
[20:29] <Angela> Me too.
[20:29] <cartman02au> I'm interested too
[20:29] <cartman02au> Bron: Not necessarily
[20:29] <Angela> assuming no one objects to a non-Australian being involved :)
[20:29] <pfctdayelise> man, that's great, because this part doesn't interest me at all ;) I'm so happy someone will do it
[20:29] <pfctdayelise> you're adopted now :)
[20:29] <cartman02au> Bron: An organisation can give another money without being legally related
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> I see.
[20:30] <cartman02au> I've been here before LOL (the planning stage)
[20:30] <Spook> donation?
[20:30] <pfctdayelise> of course people not here at the moment are also welcome to take part in this month group
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> Do you know who would be interested/
[20:30] <enochlau> yarr
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> And who isn't here?
[20:30] <cartman02au> Spook: give them money for a purpose
[20:30] <enochlau> bainer?
[20:30] <pfctdayelise> hm, thebainer? he wrote a lot of those rules IIRC
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> Yes.
[20:30] <Angela> We would have a legal relationship with them if they're licensing us their trademarks. I think the issue is to make sure we don't claim legal responsibility for the content.
[20:30] <Spook> this is all going way over my head.
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> Okay. So the content is free and anyone can use it.
[20:30] <pfctdayelise> Spook: have you seen http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia ?
[20:30] <EuropracBHIT> We're not going to interfere with that.
[20:31] <Spook> pfctdayelise: No, but still. :S
[20:31] <enochlau> I'm sure we'll draft sensible rules etc
[20:31] <pfctdayelise> but we're not going to say "only WMA members can edit aus-related articles" either
[20:31] <cartman02au> Angela: We do in that respect but we cant say that we are legally representing the foundation (I didnt state myself rightly before)
[20:31] <Angela> Yes, that's true.
[20:31] <cartman02au> Angela: Did you see the discussion about Wikimedia CH?
[20:31] <Angela> Yes.
[20:31] <cartman02au> that was the issue there
[20:31] <enochlau> could you summarise the salient points for us here please?
[20:31] <enochlau> just the issue of how theyre related?
[20:31] <cartman02au> It wasn't clear that they werent legal representatives
[20:32] <cartman02au> (according to Brad, who I must say is really cool)
[20:32] <enochlau> so we should not be legal representatives, but we should be representatives of the ideas or the principles that wikimedia represents?
[20:32] <cartman02au> yes
[20:32] <pfctdayelise> the only thing that might need major adapting in these constitutions etc is something about the form of the AGM etc. it's not reasonable at this stage to have one in person. we'd have to have one on IRC.
[20:32] <cartman02au> we should represent WM morally
[20:33] <cartman02au> this is really difficult to state
[20:33] <enochlau> has anyone found out whether we are allowed to have AGMs online?
[20:33] <enochlau> i think that was an issue raised at hte last irc meeting
[20:33] <cartman02au> I know a company can
[20:33] <pfctdayelise> video conferencing...? I'm sure there must be people who do it
[20:33] <cartman02au> For an an incorporated association I do not know
[20:33] <Angela> Pfctdayelise: I think the french chapter has a semi-real-life/semi-IRC meeting so people who can't go to the real one still chat to the people who are there via IRC and can vote on IRC too.
[20:33] <pfctdayelise> because otherwise we will never make quorum :)
[20:33] <cartman02au> Even if we did VoIP conference calling
[20:34] <cartman02au> Angela: That was the idea I had before
[20:34] <pfctdayelise> Angela: meetings is not the problem, but I'm thinking of the legal req's for AGMs and SGMs
[20:34] <cartman02au> we would need a kick-ass typist at meetings
[20:34] <pfctdayelise> heh :)
[20:34] <pfctdayelise> make that a requirement for the Secretary
[20:34] <Bduke> You can certainly have an AGM with groups in each city and a phone link
[20:34] <enochlau> just log and do minutes afterwards?
[20:34] <enochlau> right
[20:34] * cartman02au couldnt make meetings which were too far from Bathurst. The chance of a meeting here is 0
[20:34] <enochlau> well universities have high bandwidth wall to wall video conference technologies
[20:34] <enochlau> accessgrid
[20:34] <cartman02au> Bduke: there would be a physical presence there
[20:35] * Jude likes to think he is a kick-ass typist ;D
[20:35] <enochlau> if we can convince them to lend it to us, maybe that's an option since there's probably a node in each capital city
[20:35] <Bduke> Yes, ANZAAS does it that way
[20:35] * cartman02au wonders if NSW Education dept does
[20:35] <pfctdayelise> cartman02au, get recruiting! :)
[20:35] <Bduke> Uni video conferencing costs big $
[20:36] <pfctdayelise> hey I know the teacher's unions have meetings via Skynews, somehow.
[20:36] <pfctdayelise> that's the reason they tell us for all going down to the pub on teacher strike days ;)
[20:36] <cartman02au> At my school they used to use satellite but now I have no idea how it is done
[20:36] <pfctdayelise> yeah satellite
[20:36] <cartman02au> The dish there isnt even hooked up
[20:36] <enochlau> irc is probably fine, but the problem is identification?
[20:36] <enochlau> like how do you know that i am who i say i am?
[20:36] <pfctdayelise> hm
[20:37] <cartman02au> for some it is easy, for others it isnt
[20:37] <pfctdayelise> yeah, I don't think we can use IRC for votes.
[20:37] <pfctdayelise> for discussion yes, but not for formal votes.
[20:37] <Angela> You can use IRC cloaking to prove someone is a particular user on the wiki.
[20:37] <enochlau> that still doesnt help
[20:37] <Angela> It works for the French chapter. They elected their oard on IRC.
[20:37] <enochlau> we need to identify usernames to physical people
[20:37] <Angela> That's done when users submit their membership forms.
[20:38] <enochlau> hmmm
[20:38] <cartman02au> I think it would work
[20:38] <pfctdayelise> oh really... interesting
[20:38] <cartman02au> else surely we can have some form of login system for chat
[20:39] <cartman02au> Surely there is a chat system that requires authentication if that is a genuine concern/requirement
[20:39] <pfctdayelise> does anyone here speak fluent French, German etc? maybe we could have some volunteers to go and connect with the existing chapters and pick their brains for ideas and tips
[20:39] <cartman02au> I know a company can hold AGMs however it likes (as long as it conforms to the bylaws)
[20:39] <Angela> Anyway, AGMs are still a long way off. Perhaps we should focus on what we need to do to get a chapter before discussing the details of chapter meetings.
[20:40] <cartman02au> Elise: no need to, I can just ask Delphine :)
[20:40] <enochlau> Let's look at:
[20:40] <enochlau> Domain names (wikimedia.org.au vs. au.wikimedia.org etc.)
[20:40] <pfctdayelise> cartman02au:Delphine?
[20:40] <cartman02au> I like both LOL
[20:41] <enochlau> i like the first one =) although i dont really care
[20:41] <pfctdayelise> I vote for org.au, but it's not too important
[20:41] <cartman02au> the former chapter's co-ordinator who has links to both organisations and is very multi-lingual
[20:41] <Angela> surprisingly, I was able to register wikimedia.org.au. I didn't think I would be until we were a real organisation :)
[20:41] <pfctdayelise> the other one can RDR to the preferred one
[20:41] <cartman02au> That did surprise me also
[20:41] <cartman02au> I prefer .org.au but still likt the other
[20:41] <enochlau> they've loosened it up recently
[20:42] <enochlau> moving right along...
[20:42] <enochlau> Do we need a separate wiki for Wikimedia Australia yet?
[20:42] <cartman02au> not yet I dont think
[20:42] <pfctdayelise> nah
[20:42] <enochlau> (btw is someone keeping a log of this? so we can write down the answers into the meta page)
[20:42] <Angela> I am.
[20:42] <cartman02au> I am too
[20:42] <enochlau> thanks
[20:43] <enochlau> i dont think we need one, meta shoudl suffice?
[20:43] <Angela> Yes, I think it will for now.
[20:43] <cartman02au> for now
[20:43] <enochlau> ah, money! "Where will our money come from?"
[20:43] <cartman02au> I think eventually we will need a seperate wiki, but not right now
[20:44] <cartman02au> This is the one thing I hate talking about but is important to determine our form
[20:44] <cartman02au> Angela: Does the board receive financial statements from the chapters?
[20:44] <Spook> I'm a uni student. I have no money to give. :p
[20:44] <Angela> Not officially,though if we ask for them, we'll presumably be given one.
[20:45] <cartman02au> I'm a pensioner who volunteers at a school. Ditto
[20:45] <pfctdayelise> I think $20/year membership sounds about right
[20:45] <Angela> Initially, we can get a grant from Wikimedia for start up costs. Once we have members, we'll get money from membership fees, and after that, hopefully we can attract donations/grants/sponsorship for whatever it is we want to do.
[20:45] <cartman02au> I cant remember which chapter it is but one of them has a large sum of cash
[20:45] <pfctdayelise> we can do a supercheap conc rate too if we want ($5)
[20:45] <Angela> The German chapter has a lot of money.
[20:45] <pfctdayelise> yes, grants! woot
[20:45] <Angela> (enough to get an office and hire a CEO)
[20:46] <cartman02au> That's the issue with setting up
[20:46] <cartman02au> I heard about the CEO being advertised in Germany
[20:46] <pfctdayelise> ?!
[20:46] <Angela> http://www.wikimedia.de/2006/02/wikimedia-sucht-geschaeftsfuehrer/
[20:46] <enochlau> how did the german chapter get so much money?
[20:46] <cartman02au> they robbed a bank?
[20:46] <enochlau> the edited the locks on the front of the bank
[20:46] <pfctdayelise> er, I am Template:De-0
[20:47] <Angela> They get a lot of donations. Wikipedia is very very popular in Germany. They also get a percentage of the DVD sales by Directmedia.
[20:47] <Spook> OTemplate:Ja-1 :P
[20:47] <Spook> *I'm
[20:47] <enochlau> oh wow, dvd sales
[20:47] <Jude> <-- Template:En-0. ;D
[20:47] <pfctdayelise> yeah, the German chapter seems particularly successful to me
[20:47] <Angela> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/German_Wikipedia_DVD_sells_out_first_10,000-copy_run
[20:47] <enochlau> could we follow their path of selling merchanidising?
[20:47] <cartman02au> the thing is are we likely to have a turnover in excess of $500,000 + in the next few years?
[20:48] <Spook> so how are we going to scam them?
[20:48] <enochlau> i can't imagine so
[20:48] <pfctdayelise> I think a lot of it is unpredictable though. we won't know what potential is out there until we exist, and we're out there pushing it
[20:48] <Angela> We could definitely sell merchandising if we have permission from Wikimedia to use their trademarks on it.
[20:48] <Jude> I want a Wikimedia t-shirt, if we do any merchandise.
[20:48] <enochlau> turnover = income or expenditure?
[20:48] <cartman02au> both
[20:48] <enochlau> income + expenditure?
[20:48] <Angela> We might to find an Australian alternative to the cafepress shop at cafepress.com/wikipedia for example.
[20:48] <enochlau> or max(income, expenditure)
[20:48] <pfctdayelise> WP is really quite advanced in Aus, considering the population here and the number of meetups we've had, even the fact we're having this discussion
[20:48] <cartman02au> max
[20:49] <enochlau> i see
[20:49] <cartman02au> the amount of money coming in and going out
[20:49] <cartman02au> generally its like which ever is greater, remove the other
[20:50] <Angela> If we want a turnover in excess of $500,000, we could achieve that. I don't know if this is really what we want our goal to be though.
[20:50] <cartman02au> This is the thing, I dont want to setup as a association (around $500) if we need to convert to a company in say the next 2-3 years (costing another $330)
[20:50] <cartman02au> At the same time, I dont want to be a company if we aren't making enough money to justify audit costs
[20:50] <cartman02au> remember accountants aren't cheap
[20:50] <pfctdayelise> how much are audit costs?
[20:50] <enochlau> put it this way, if we're turning over 500,00, $330 is peanuts
[20:50] <Angela> True.
[20:50] <enochlau> although we dont want to waste money of course
[20:51] <cartman02au> true
[20:51] <cartman02au> audit costs can range from $700 +
[20:51] <enochlau> volunteer accountants?
[20:51] <enochlau> im sure there are some wikiaccounts floating around
[20:51] <Bduke> Is there a limit on icorporated associations' money? The Professional Ass od Chemsits is incorporated now and has a big turnover
[20:51] <cartman02au> Who are registered as company auditors with ASIC?
[20:52] <cartman02au> Bduke: When I was talking to NSW fair trading they said it was $500,000 in NSW
[20:52] <Bduke> The chemists are incorporated in Vic. I'll check it
[20:52] <cartman02au> I agree that $330 out of $500,000 is peanuts, but there is also time involved in rewriting dicuments etc
[20:52] <cartman02au> *documents
[20:52] <cartman02au> My idea is get it right first up :)
[20:53] <cartman02au> The least the governing documents are changed the more stable the organisation will be
[20:53] <pfctdayelise> yeah
[20:53] <pfctdayelise> so let's make this a priority for our working group: get it right the first time ;)
[20:53] <enochlau> yep
[20:53] <cartman02au> indeed
[20:53] <enochlau> perhaps the working group should do estimates
[20:54] <Angela> But it's still important to have the right structure for the chapter as it is now, even if that might change in future. there's not much benefit to forcing us to fit another structure too early.
[20:54] <enochlau> and develop answers for different cases... if we sell merchanise, if we dont...
[20:54] <enochlau> hmmm
[20:54] <Angela> I agree with enochlau. the estimates are something to work on outside of this meeting.
[20:54] <cartman02au> Angela: That is true too, but a company is flexible. I think 2-3 yrs is short term
[20:54] <cartman02au> indeed
[20:55] <cartman02au> Although 2-3 years in wiki terms is an eternity
[20:55] <Angela> 2-3 in a start-up organisation is an eternity too.
[20:55] <cartman02au> I would argue that :)
[20:56] <enochlau> what about sponsorship?
[20:56] <cartman02au> If you are looking at creating something that has the means to operate long term then it is nothing, but yeah I think that is probably for discussion outside of this meeting
[20:56] <cartman02au> that is something I thought could work both ways (and I could be wrong)
[20:57] <pfctdayelise> we have to be able to survive those first 3 years, and not hobble ourselves
[20:57] <cartman02au> exactly and not have ridiculous expenses
[20:57] <EuropracBHIT> Don't educational organisations write triennal reviews?
[20:57] <cartman02au> I thought they were done at the end of each semester
[20:58] <enochlau> schools do it once a year?
[20:58] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, for the charters and things. I think they're done that way in Victoria - every three years.
[20:58] <EuropracBHIT> for Schools of the future.
[20:58] <cartman02au> self-analysis twice a year. Reporting once a year in DET
[20:58] <EuropracBHIT> I see.
[20:59] <cartman02au> but NSW can be weird
[20:59] * cartman02au will not start on about DET
[20:59] <pfctdayelise> Also, I don't have a problem with setting up in, say, SA, if their state laws are particularly easy to deal with
[20:59] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, they seem to incorporate a lot of organisations for just this reason.
[20:59] <pfctdayelise> also takes the heat away from the NSW/VIC dilemma ;)
[20:59] <enochlau> ...
[20:59] <cartman02au> Keep in mind that the public officer for the organisation (who is generally on the committee) must live in that state
[21:00] <EuropracBHIT> Who do we know who's the public officer? And what do they do?
[21:00] <EuropracBHIT> Any of the committee members in SA?
[21:00] <enochlau> we vote for them?
[21:00] <Angela> "the public officer"? Won't there be more than one officer?
[21:00] <cartman02au> The public officer files documents with the government
[21:00] <Angela> Is anyone involved in these discussions so far from SA?
[21:00] <cartman02au> Angela: The public officer is the person who puts their name to tax forms, association reports, change reports, etc
[21:01] <Bduke> The Public Officver reports on out incorporation activitiies/ S/he is responsible to the Sate incorporation body
[21:01] <cartman02au> We would have more than one officer of the organisation but one public officer
[21:01] <cartman02au> and the tax office
[21:01] <cartman02au> they could be anyone but typically they are on the governing committee
[21:01] <enochlau> well SA was just a hypothetical state
[21:01] <Spook> WA!
[21:02] <enochlau> obviously if no one lives there
[21:02] <Angela> Is this public officer necessarily an involved person? I was wondering if there are companies in SA who do this by proxy if it's such a popular place to incorporate.
[21:02] <pfctdayelise> I think I read someone say SA was particularly good :) but it shouldn't be TOO hard to find someone, as long as it's not like the Christmas Islands
[21:02] <cartman02au> A company needs an office to do it. An association must have their public officer there
[21:02] <enochlau> hmmmm'
[21:02] <EuropracBHIT> Speaking of offices, I read in the Epoch Times there were some good ones for $50 lease in Sydney.
[21:02] <Bduke> Angela. I think it is important to have a good Public Officer on the committee and involved
[21:03] <EuropracBHIT> It was in an advertisement for that paper.
[21:03] <cartman02au> Australian corporations law is complicated
[21:03] <Angela> EuropracBHIT: do you think we need an office?
[21:03] <cartman02au> I dont believe we do yet
[21:03] <EuropracBHIT> I don't know ...
[21:03] <pfctdayelise> i agree, not yet
[21:03] <enochlau> the sydney crowd doesnt think we need an office
[21:03] <cartman02au> If we are going to focus on demonstrating how good online resources are we should be seen to operate online for now
[21:03] <Angela> So far, none of the chapters do, though the german one soon will. I can't really see a need for it in the near future.
[21:03] <pfctdayelise> what would we put there?! let's operate out of our committees' shoeboxes until absolutely necessary
[21:04] * cartman02au wonders, do I fit into the Sydney crowd
[21:04] <EuropracBHIT> That's a good point.
[21:04] <EuropracBHIT> And have an IN shoebox and an OUT shoebox.
[21:04] <pfctdayelise> :)
[21:04] <cartman02au> True
[21:04] <Angela> An office is very expensive, even if you can get one for $50 lease, you've got maintenace and insurance costs to deal with.
[21:04] <cartman02au> We need an "office" for the government, but this can be someone's house
[21:05] <Angela> can it be a PO box?
[21:05] <enochlau> what about contact/interview with the press?
[21:05] <EuropracBHIT> Well, my house was once a home business ...
[21:05] <enochlau> where will they see us?
[21:05] <EuropracBHIT> In a lobby or foyer ...
[21:05] <cartman02au> Wikimedia CH registers their office to the house of the president
[21:05] <EuropracBHIT> Or in a special room.
[21:05] <cartman02au> Angela: No, must be a physical address
[21:05] <Angela> That's what I thought.
[21:05] <enochlau> hmm the house of the pres sounds good
[21:06] <EuropracBHIT> Or the secretary.
[21:06] <EuropracBHIT> They're the ones who keep the documents.
[21:06] <enochlau> yep
[21:06] <cartman02au> except under the incorporated association system it would have to be in the state we incorporate under
[21:06] <pfctdayelise> cartman02au:under the association model, can we be individually sued for stuff? this is an important plus for the corp. model.
[21:06] <cartman02au> I dont like saying "Lets vote for our president but they must live VIC"
[21:07] <cartman02au> no incorporated associations are like a company in that respect
[21:07] <cartman02au> they are seperate from their members
[21:07] <EuropracBHIT> Good. So we don't get sued.
[21:07] <enochlau> even co-ops are safe right?
[21:07] <cartman02au> that is the purpose of incorporation
[21:07] <EuropracBHIT> I don't want to do anything sueable!
[21:07] <cartman02au> yes, they are incorporated
[21:07] <cartman02au> neither do I
[21:07] <enochlau> i mean if u join the co-op bookshop you dont get sued :P
[21:08] <pfctdayelise> EuropracBHIT: you don't have to do something suable to get sued!
[21:08] <enochlau> but can we ensure that at least one committee member lives in the state
[21:08] <pfctdayelise> that's the problem
[21:08] <enochlau> in which we register?
[21:08] <EuropracBHIT> Then register where most of the committee members are?
[21:08] <cartman02au> I dont see that as a problem
[21:08] <enochlau> well we could have "state" reprsentatives
[21:08] <EuropracBHIT> That's fairly logical.
[21:08] <enochlau> so there's at least one person from said state
[21:08] <cartman02au> relatively
[21:08] <Angela> We should get legal advice on this to find out exactly what the liabilities of officers are and what they can be sued for.
[21:08] <pfctdayelise> like a 'ward' system for states? that could be divisive
[21:08] <enochlau> nono
[21:08] <cartman02au> officers normally can only be sued personally if they do something stupid
[21:08] <pfctdayelise> like Vic has x members so they get x representatives...
[21:09] <Angela> You can get board & officers insurance to cover things like this in the US. Maybe there's something similar in Australia if it is going to be an issue.
[21:09] <enochlau> just to enusre there is at least one contacy from eahc state
[21:09] <cartman02au> I prefer free and open committee elections
[21:09] <EuropracBHIT> I don't recall any insurance of that kind here.
[21:09] <EuropracBHIT> (Is there?)
[21:09] <cartman02au> Neither do I
[21:09] <enochlau> i think get legal advice
[21:09] <enochlau> or at least law student advice
[21:09] <pfctdayelise> we could maybe have branch heads though, it would be handy to have people to report back from local meetups etc
[21:09] <cartman02au> Alot of the things that officers can be sued for can also end them in gaol
[21:10] <EuropracBHIT> Like you or Bduke?
[21:10] <cartman02au> look at Rodney Adler
[21:10] <EuropracBHIT> And Rene Rivkin.
[21:10] <cartman02au> elise: yes that would be cool
[21:10] <enochlau> alright, let's try not to do anything stupid then
[21:10] <Angela> good advice :)
[21:11] <enochlau> everyone happy that they're not going to jail? :D
[21:11] <EuropracBHIT> Yes.
[21:11] <pfctdayelise> as long as WMA pays my speeding fines ;P
[21:11] <cartman02au> ROFL
[21:11] <cartman02au> elise: dont get caught or dont join a car club that the police throw off mount panorama
[21:12] <Angela> Back to the agenda... one thing on it is comparisons of Draft Wikimedia Australia documents with those of other chapters, but I think that's something the organising group will do anyway as part of creating those documents.
[21:12] <enochlau> yep
[21:12] <cartman02au> I think so
[21:12] <EuropracBHIT> I can't read any other languages.
[21:12] <cartman02au> We also need to consider that Australia is legally different
[21:12] <enochlau> Registering trademarks in Australia
[21:12] <EuropracBHIT> Does anyone speak other languages?
[21:12] <cartman02au> All other chapters must have their documents in english
[21:12] <EuropracBHIT> Good.
[21:13] <enochlau> right
[21:13] <Angela> Registering trademarks is maybe an issue for the Foundation at this stage.
[21:13] <enochlau> ok
[21:13] <pfctdayelise> cartman02au: yes, but if we can incorporate the best ideas they've had into our documents...
[21:13] <EuropracBHIT> What trademarks would we want? Those of the projects?
[21:13] <cartman02au> I think Australia has a trademark agreement with the US
[21:13] <EuropracBHIT> Because of free trade?
[21:13] <enochlau> so i cant start up a "wikimedia" tomorrow?
[21:13] <cartman02au> I think we have for a while
[21:13] <cartman02au> not entirely sure there
[21:13] <pfctdayelise> separate working group for the draft documents, right? or not...?
[21:13] <EuropracBHIT> Yes.
[21:14] <Angela> I'll ask the Foundation trademark committee for advice on this and report back at the next meeting.
[21:14] <cartman02au> the group that is looking at the structure too yes
[21:14] <EuropracBHIT> At least that's what I understand from an hour ago.
[21:14] <cartman02au> there is a trademark committee?
[21:14] <EuropracBHIT> That's the trouble with advice ... you never know where to ask the right people ...
[21:14] <enochlau> is there a colour scheme committee too? :)
[21:14] <Angela> Cartman02au: yes, soufron and some others. It was the first committee to exist.
[21:14] <cartman02au> isnt that legalcom?
[21:14] <enochlau> are these committees elected on meta or something?
[21:14] <Angela> Legalcom doesn't exist.
[21:15] <cartman02au> maybe I have the two mixed up
[21:15] <Angela> Enochlau: they weren't elected. they were self-organising mostly.
[21:15] <enochlau> ah ok
[21:15] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, I remember.
[21:15] <cartman02au> enoch: the selection of members was delegated to certain people, they selected the committees mainly
[21:15] <Angela> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_committees - they're supposed to all make clear how new members can join, but not all of them have yet
[21:15] <cartman02au> well as far as I am aware
[21:16] <enochlau> oh wow, today's the first i've heard of them =)
[21:16] <pfctdayelise> don't you just join a mailing list and make the occasional insightful comment...
[21:16] <cartman02au> LOL Trademarks committee is what I though LegCom was
[21:16] <cartman02au> hell no
[21:16] <EuropracBHIT> I think I knew about them since February.
[21:17] <pfctdayelise> hm the SPCom looks useful
[21:17] <EuropracBHIT> Do you mean the people who run Wikimania?
[21:18] <EuropracBHIT> Um, the borad page seems to hate me.
[21:18] <enochlau> anyway back on topic: Should education be one of the goals?
[21:18] <Angela> Since this meeting is going on quite long already, I wonder if it might be better to move the Education part of the agenda to a separate meeting? It's a huge topic that could quite easily be discussed for 2 hours on its own. I expect this is going to make up a significant part of what the chapter does.
[21:18] <enochlau> sure
[21:18] <EuropracBHIT> Yes. We can reach a lot of peple this way.
[21:18] <EuropracBHIT> Oh, all right.
[21:18] <cartman02au> Wikimania falls under the events committee
[21:19] <cartman02au> I agree that it might need to be moved yes
[21:19] <EuropracBHIT> What does the SPCommittee do?
[21:19] <enochlau> next q then: Should hosting servers be one of the goals?
[21:19] <Angela> Unless anyone wants to cover it now? I'm just thinking we should aim to keep this <90 mins or it'll go off-topic again.
[21:19] <cartman02au> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special_projects_committee
[21:19] <enochlau> see the "How does the whole thing work ?" section
[21:19] <cartman02au> I think we should define what needs to be looked at there
[21:20] <pfctdayelise> maybe, but not right away
[21:20] <EuropracBHIT> Hi pru.
[21:20] <Angela> I don't personally think hosting servers is going to be very useful.
[21:20] <cartman02au> I mean what goals do we have with respect to education
[21:20] <cartman02au> I don't at this stage
[21:20] <pru> Hi -sorry for being so late
[21:20] <EuropracBHIT> Make WikiReaders about school subjects.
[21:20] <enochlau> but if we help out with wikis for educational institutions
[21:20] <enochlau> then maybe we need hosting of some sort?
[21:20] <cartman02au> If we did maybe a local wikicities type thing but besides that
[21:20] <EuropracBHIT> EG: English or Geography.
[21:20] <pfctdayelise> yeah
[21:20] <enochlau> maybe to start with we dont host it oursevles
[21:21] <cartman02au> enoch: they would generally be onsite
[21:21] <enochlau> oh right
[21:21] <EuropracBHIT> And Wikijunior specifically tailored for the Australian curriculum
[21:21] <cartman02au> can we stick to one topic
[21:21] <EuropracBHIT> Hi Tim.
[21:21] <TimStarling> hi
[21:21] <Angela> do you mean hosting Wikipedia or hosting non-Wikimedia stuff?
[21:21] <enochlau> non wikimedia stuff
[21:21] <pfctdayelise> non-WM.
[21:21] <enochlau> as mentioned last time, none of us see any pressing need to host a local mirror of wikipedia
[21:21] <cartman02au> enoch: I setup a Mediawiki server at my school this week, with a modified copy of mediawiki
[21:21] <cartman02au> I dont think there is a need and it is technically infesible
[21:22] <EuropracBHIT> And you can set up WordPress things. It's similar.
[21:22] <cartman02au> wordpress?
[21:22] <Angela> I think it's unrealistic. Wikia just got $4million funding to host wikis. How is WMA going to raise anywhere near that? Especially if you're likely to want to do it without ads.
[21:22] <Alphax> CMS.
[21:22] <enochlau> right, but do we have the manpower to go out to help people set this stuff up?
[21:22] <pfctdayelise> geez some people are fashionably late all right ;P
[21:22] <Alphax> (sorry, had to eat)
[21:22] <EuropracBHIT> I don't drive and I use public transport.
[21:22] <enochlau> hey i ate and chatted at the same time :P
[21:22] <Angela> Enochlau: I don't think we have many tech people involved yet.
[21:22] <cartman02au> enoch: In the case of schools, I dont think it's the manpower but the $$$
[21:22] <EuropracBHIT> So maybe in a few suburbs I know ...?
[21:22] <enochlau> hmm that's a worry, because the education goal seems rather distant then?
[21:23] <pfctdayelise> hopefully we will attract tech people, as the official WMF rep's in this country
[21:23] <EuropracBHIT> Then find ways to do it cheaply.
[21:23] <enochlau> $$$ for what? server equipment?
[21:23] <cartman02au> enoch: We just had to find a ocmputer laying around and reuse it
[21:23] <cartman02au> yes
[21:23] <pfctdayelise> and they will naturally gravitate to Tim, of course
[21:23] <EuropracBHIT> Or borrow servers.
[21:23] <Angela> Enochlau: servers, developmenr and staff.
[21:23] <enochlau> hmmm
[21:23] <cartman02au> In the case of NSW schools servers should be easier when web services comes up
[21:23] <Angela> You could promote the use of Wikipedia in education without hosting wikis for people.
[21:24] <cartman02au> yes
[21:24] <enochlau> that's true, we could do seminars? webcasts?
[21:24] <Angela> Most schools want to host their own stuff anyway, not use a potentially insecure third party.
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> Like exhibiting at shows.
[21:24] <cartman02au> but I think we should also look at promoting the use of wikis themselves
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> What is 'insecure' about Wikipedia/Wikimedia?
[21:24] <cartman02au> Angela: Exactly
[21:24] <pru> Amongst teachers there is a huge need for education and promotion
[21:24] <Angela> Providing information to schools on how to use Wikipedia would be a good example.
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> They can have their projects about it.
[21:24] <enochlau> dispelling the "public toilet" myth is still important
[21:24] <pru> There is a very low rate of understanding in this area
[21:24] <EuropracBHIT> And target to a key learning area.
[21:25] <cartman02au> Euro: I am using Mediawiki to host photos. Because the kids there are disabled some parents dont want the photos being released to the public
[21:25] <Angela> EuropracBHITL I don't mean Wikipedia is insecure. I mean WMA hosting websites for people would be.
[21:25] <cartman02au> DET is paranoid about anything being offsite
[21:25] <EuropracBHIT> I see. Thanks for the clarification.
[21:25] <cartman02au> When web services comes online it will be worse
[21:25] <EuropracBHIT> What if Wikipedia did a deal with DET so it could be onsite?
[21:25] <EuropracBHIT> Like, exclusively providing education services.
[21:26] <EuropracBHIT> We feed/funnel them what they need.
[21:26] <cartman02au> Wikipedia isnt too bad for that, but hosting things for schools outside the DET network is a problem
[21:26] <enochlau> do you reckon there's real interest among teachers? because wiki technology doesnt really kick off if only one or two teachers are really interested in it
[21:26] <Alphax> We'd need it to be login-only and a secure way of creating and distributing logins
[21:26] <enochlau> the other teachers will see it as just more work they have to do
[21:26] <cartman02au> Quite a few teachers where I work are interested in it
[21:26] <Angela> Personally, I don't think hosting non Wikimedia projects makes sense as a goal for WMA, but I'm open to discusion if you think differently.
[21:26] <pfctdayelise> well, it won't kick off if they don't know about it at all...
[21:26] <pru> Smaller states, eg ACT & SA are looking for some assistance. They don't have the centralised service of NSW or QLF
[21:26] <cartman02au> I think that we dont need to host at present
[21:26] <pfctdayelise> well is a goal of WMA to support and encourage the use of wikis in general?
[21:27] <cartman02au> I think it should be
[21:27] <pfctdayelise> or only with restrictions, ie open editing, free license?
[21:27] <EuropracBHIT> Yes.
[21:27] <cartman02au> they are so useful :)
[21:27] <enochlau> should be != it is
[21:27] <EuropracBHIT> Those restrictions make sense.
[21:27] <Angela> I'd rather encourage them to use Wikimedia content, not just wikis in general (at least in my Wikimedia role anyway)
[21:27] <pfctdayelise> but a school wouldn't want open editing
[21:27] <cartman02au> true
[21:27] <cartman02au> here we have an issue
[21:27] <Alphax> AFAIK promoting the use of wikis is not a goal of the WMF....
[21:27] <enochlau> perhaps repackaging of wikimedia content? a "stable", vandal free version for distribution?
[21:27] <cartman02au> 1. Do we promote free and open content and then say hey let's use wiki
[21:28] <pfctdayelise> i think there is value in encouraging wiki-use in general, regardless of how open it is.
[21:28] <EuropracBHIT> Yes, like on CD and DVD?
[21:28] <pfctdayelise> but maybe that's not for WMA
[21:28] <cartman02au> but with 2. we use wiki for whatever we like
[21:28] <cartman02au> Euro: Even onsite WP servers if we had to
[21:28] <cartman02au> I could see value in that too
[21:28] <enochlau> cartman02au, is a major concern for teachers vandalism and the fact their students might see the random penis on wikipedia?
[21:28] <cartman02au> There are 2 concerns
[21:28] <EuropracBHIT> What about designing content and ways to access Wikimedia for the disabled?
[21:28] <pru> Depends on what the learning goal is. Some schools get students to develop an article collaboratively, then post it to an open wiki
[21:28] <cartman02au> 1. Students vandalising the content
[21:28] <pfctdayelise> i think the major concern should be the vandalism they cause!!! :P
[21:29] <enochlau> lol
[21:29] <cartman02au> 2. The content being inaccurate because of it's "open" nature
[21:29] <Alphax> 3. students accessing "inappropriate" content?
[21:29] <EuropracBHIT> (2) is a pretty important concern.
[21:29] <cartman02au> Euro: I would be interested in accessibility
[21:29] <cartman02au> alpha: possibly
[21:29] <pfctdayelise> ok guys we should be wrapping up soon
[21:29] <pru> Let's start with helping teachers and students find out what a wiki is
[21:29] <pfctdayelise> any more topics?
[21:29] <cartman02au> when web services comes out in NSW schools we will be abl;e to access servers at any other school
[21:30] <enochlau> "Should PR be one of the goals?"
[21:30] <pru> YES!
[21:30] <pfctdayelise> yes?
[21:30] <enochlau> yes
[21:30] <EuropracBHIT> If you don't do PR then you can't do any of the other goals.
[21:30] <cartman02au> a single school could set up a local and "checked" WP server and let all others use it
[21:30] <pru> to PR and promotion
[21:30] <cartman02au> we need PR
[21:30] <Alphax> but without something to promote...
[21:30] <pfctdayelise> also being a press rep ala David Gerard
[21:30] <EuropracBHIT> Or Robert Merkel.
[21:30] <Angela> Alphax: we're promoting the Wikimedia projects.
[21:30] <pfctdayelise> we can just promote the existing projects.
[21:30] <Alphax> Right.
[21:30] <EuropracBHIT> He's done this sort of work for Wiki before.
[21:30] <cartman02au> Alpha: Promote the projects and our goals
[21:30] <enochlau> we need a dedicated person to talk to journalists etc
[21:30] <Alphax> yep. gotcha
[21:31] <pru> Develop some 'stories' of education use
[21:31] <pfctdayelise> FREE CONTENT OR DEATH!
[21:31] <enochlau> but we also need a focused effort to make ourselves known at shows
[21:31] <Alphax> :D
[21:31] <pru> and tell them to MCEETYA, systems, teachers, parents and students
[21:31] <cartman02au> running around naked?
[21:31] <EuropracBHIT> The Australian has good connections to shows.
[21:31] <Alphax> Well, start at LUGs and stuff
[21:31] <Angela> Getting more press would be good. Wikipedia gets way more press coverage in Germany than in Australia, and the other projects are barelt mentioned at all.
[21:31] <enochlau> LUGs?
[21:31] <Angela> Linux user groups.
[21:31] <pfctdayelise> Linux user groups
[21:31] <pfctdayelise> did you hear Mandrake is releasing a stable-ish version with their next release?
[21:31] <EuropracBHIT> But many more computers use Mac and PC.
[21:31] <pfctdayelise> like included
[21:31] <EuropracBHIT> That's excellent.
[21:32] <Alphax> that's been in the works for a while now...
[21:32] <cartman02au> We need to bring non-technical people in
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> So promote the stable version and say why you should have it in your computer.
[21:32] <cartman02au> I'd like to see more older people contrivute
[21:32] <pfctdayelise> yes
[21:32] <Angela> I'm not convinced the mandrake thing is still happening, but I don't know for sure.
[21:32] <pfctdayelise> oh ok
[21:32] <enochlau> that's hard - the feb sydney meetup had all but one IT ppl!
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> And maybe if people use the stable version they feel like contributing more.
[21:32] <Alphax> If there was a way to get updated stable content....
[21:32] <pfctdayelise> this is where like U3A could come in, too
[21:32] <EuropracBHIT> Melbourne was more diverse, as I recall.
[21:32] <cartman02au> enoch: that should be something to focus on
[21:32] <pfctdayelise> basically people making contact with little groups and going out to educate them
[21:32] <cartman02au> yes
[21:33] <EuropracBHIT> There was a historian, a scientist ...
[21:33] <pfctdayelise> there's a Brunswick history group/club IIRC
[21:33] <pfctdayelise> there'd be tons of similar small groups
[21:33] <Alphax> actually a friend of mine asked if there was a way to import Wikipedia (Wiktionary?) stuff into the Apple dictionary today
[21:33] <EuropracBHIT> Thank you.
[21:33] <cartman02au> or even holding local classes on contributing
[21:33] <enochlau> hmm
[21:33] <pfctdayelise> I think encouraging historians is really important.
[21:33] <Angela> Maybe like outreach into universties as well.
[21:33] <enochlau> most uni students know of wiki already
[21:33] <enochlau> at least in my experience
[21:33] <pfctdayelise> Angela: for students or lecturers?
[21:33] <Alphax> I'm wondering about historical societies and such
[21:34] <enochlau> the major factor is time
[21:34] <pru> But their lecturers don't
[21:34] <enochlau> true
[21:34] <Angela> Pfctdayelise: good question. I guess both.
[21:34] <pfctdayelise> my lecturer knows about it, each week I get to hear a bit of the latest article thebainer's been working on! ;)
[21:34] * Mark_Away is now known as Mark_Ryan
[21:34] <enochlau> thebainer is your lecturer?
[21:34] <pfctdayelise> no
[21:35] <pfctdayelise> he edits articles before we get the lecture, she uses WP material
[21:35] <enochlau> wow
[21:35] <pfctdayelise> he's my classmate
[21:35] <enochlau> that is impressive
[21:35] <Alphax> One of my lecturers last year used Wikipedia to brush up on stuff
[21:35] * cartman02au was going to go and do a research degree on wikiculture but cant be bothered
[21:35] <pfctdayelise> Alphax:how did you know? did they say?
[21:35] <enochlau> lecturers at usyd sometimes use wikipedia to provide definitions in assessments
[21:35] <enochlau> but otherwise it's fairly limited
[21:35] <cartman02au> thats still better than some
[21:35] <Angela> "Wikiparties" is on the agenda, so should social events be one of the goals?
[21:36] <pru> It's a huge culture shift for education
[21:36] <Alphax> pfctdayelise, yeah, she said that she used it and it was good. but it was electronics, one of the hard science areas
[21:36] <cartman02au> although I finished in 2003 so I wouldnt know
[21:36] <pfctdayelise> social events... a secondary goal I would say.
[21:36] <enochlau> wikiparties = parties with wikipedians or a huge mass editing frenzy? :D
[21:36] <Mark_Ryan> Oh poo, I missed the meeting
[21:36] <Angela> Hi Mark.
[21:36] <enochlau> we have logs
[21:36] <pfctdayelise> this is the tail end, it's still on
[21:36] <Alphax> Mark_Ryan, so did I :( but at least you can scroll up
[21:36] <Mark_Ryan> oh well, you gotta eat when you gotta eat
[21:36] <Angela> I'd like to have larger events than just meetups. A few countries are holding their own version of Wikimania, for example.
[21:36] <pfctdayelise> yes!!!!!!!!!
[21:36] <cartman02au> I can just imagine a room full of computers with people editing wikipedia/wikinews lol
[21:37] <Mark_Ryan> and Home and Away was on, and Today Tonight...
[21:37] <enochlau> bah what is it with ppl and not eating while chatting :P
[21:37] <Alphax> mm
[21:37] <EuropracBHIT> Awesome.
[21:37] <EuropracBHIT> And the football.
[21:37] * Mark_Ryan makes excuses
[21:37] <Mark_Ryan> hello, Angela :)
[21:37] <enochlau> you watch TT?
[21:37] <pfctdayelise> Wikimania Downunder!!!!!!! I so want to see it!
[21:37] <Alphax> :D
[21:37] <pfctdayelise> within 5 years people :P
[21:37] <enochlau> we can try and get it here
[21:37] <EuropracBHIT> And i!
[21:37] <Mark_Ryan> enochlau, don't laugh at me
[21:37] <cartman02au> I want to see it even though it is unlikely I can get there
[21:37] <Angela> We could hold a small version even if we can't get the official Wikimania here.
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> Your health problems are really getting into the way ... but that doesn';t mean you can't contribute.
[21:38] <pfctdayelise> yeah
[21:38] <Alphax> mmm
[21:38] <enochlau> i can imagine the bidding war for the city
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> A small version would really be good.
[21:38] <cartman02au> they suck seriously
[21:38] <enochlau> sydney/melbourne
[21:38] <enochlau> :S
[21:38] <pfctdayelise> imagine the sockpuppeting ;)
[21:38] <cartman02au> bathurst lol
[21:38] <Alphax> :D
[21:38] <Alphax> we've had a hard enough time with meetups
[21:38] <cartman02au> enjoy the country hospitality!
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> Sockpuppeting.
[21:38] <EuropracBHIT> And the cars.
[21:38] <cartman02au> indeed
[21:38] <pfctdayelise> well based on meetups i think melb would win
[21:38] <cartman02au> and the local car nuts
[21:39] <EuropracBHIT> Hey, nuts are good.
[21:39] <pfctdayelise> we should hold it in canberra to be neutral, just like our founding forefathers
[21:39] <EuropracBHIT> We should have more info on motorsport.
[21:39] <Alphax> nuts hold cars together
[21:39] <Mark_Ryan> who are the Perthlings present?
[21:39] <Alphax> you and Ali_K
[21:39] <Angela> Mark_Ryan: you...
[21:39] * cartman02au is a proud car nut
[21:39] <pfctdayelise> they get here in two hours ;)
[21:39] <EuropracBHIT> :-D
[21:39] <Angela> Ah. I didn't know ali was from perth.
[21:39] <Mark_Ryan> hm, that's about proportionate
[21:39] <cartman02au> I know we need more motorsport info
[21:39] <pru> Am an ex-perthling - now moved slightly east
[21:40] <pru> You'd all be welcome in SA
[21:40] <EuropracBHIT> Pru, are you comfortable with us incorporating where you are?
[21:40] <cartman02au> we were talking about SA earlier
[21:40] <EuropracBHIT> (If that's what we decide ...)
[21:40] <Mark_Ryan> Spook's in WA too
[21:40] <pru> That's fine
[21:40] <enochlau> someone still hasnt explaned why SA is so good for this
[21:40] <Alphax> enochlau, we're in the middle? :)
[21:41] <enochlau> heh
[21:41] <cartman02au> I dont get it either lol
[21:41] <Mark_Ryan> isn't South Australia really strict for fundraising or something? everything seems to have to have an SA Permit number
[21:41] <pru> We have the best wine?
[21:41] <enochlau> that's be somewhere near broken hill wouldnt it?
[21:41] <Alphax> mm. you have to have permits for everything I think
[21:41] <EuropracBHIT> Or in the Central Highlands of Victoria.
[21:41] * Ali_K notices flashing
[21:41] <cartman02au> most states are stirct on fundraising and it doesnt matter if you are registered there or not
[21:41] <EuropracBHIT> Jacob's creek is really good...
[21:41] <Ali_K> sorry, i was baking cookies
[21:41] <Alphax> :) realistically, Melbourne is most likely
[21:42] <EuropracBHIT> Are they nice?
[21:42] <Mark_Ryan> but the good thing is, we can send our empty cans and bottles to the foundation office in SA and raise our money 5c at a time
[21:42] <EuropracBHIT> :-D
[21:42] <enochlau> bwahaha
[21:42] <cartman02au> lol
[21:42] <Ali_K> and Commander_Keane went to sleep, sorry about him leaving in the middle of it
[21:42] <enochlau> dont u need to have bought it in SA?
[21:42] <enochlau> as in the cans/bottles
[21:42] * Mark_Ryan shrugs
[21:42] <Ali_K> yes, very good
[21:42] <cartman02au> I think that VIC is the ideal location personally to base the organisation
[21:42] <EuropracBHIT> Yeah, Melbourne.
[21:42] <cartman02au> how would they know?
[21:42] * Ali_K shares cookies
[21:42] <Alphax> enochlau, nope. Check a can sometime
[21:42] <Mark_Ryan> all the coke cans produced here in Perth have the SA refund stuff printed on them too
[21:42] <EuropracBHIT> Do they have like a state code?
[21:42] <cartman02au> not as far as I know
[21:43] <cartman02au> the labels are all the same
[21:43] <cartman02au> maybe when you buy it they secretly stamp it "bought in SA"
[21:43] <enochlau> then what's stopping someone from bankrupting SA by bringing in gigatonnes of the stuff?
[21:43] <Alphax> actually a few years ago people got really pissy because all the victorians were bringing stuff over
[21:43] <Mark_Ryan> Ali_K, he went to sleep, before 7.30pm? how old is he??! it's a public holiday tomorrow, you know
[21:43] <Ali_K> Mark_Ryan: he was up since 11 last night
[21:43] <pfctdayelise> hm I think this is officially veering :)
[21:43] <Mark_Ryan> enochlau, costs more to bring it in than you get back :)
[21:43] <enochlau> and as predicted, we've run out of steam after 1.5 hours
[21:43] <cartman02au> as do I
[21:44] <Mark_Ryan> probably worth more to melt the aluminium down
[21:44] <enochlau> Mark_Ryan: slave labour!
[21:44] <pfctdayelise> shall we all the official stuff done for, for now?
[21:44] <Mark_Ryan> enochlau, hey, I just turned up. I'm fresh.
[21:44] <Angela> shall we set another meeting for about a month from now?
[21:44] <pfctdayelise> yeah
[21:44] <pru> I missed earlier discussion on incorporation, but it does require a stable address/contact person
[21:44] <Mark_Ryan> I pick Melbourne.
[21:44] <enochlau> yar if we have nothing left, im heading outa here
[21:44] <pfctdayelise> maybe 5-6 weeks?
[21:44] <enochlau> law assignment to attend to
[21:44] <enochlau> that's for the committee to decide
[21:44] <Mark_Ryan> Melbourne's nicer than Sydney (sorry Sydneysiders)
[21:44] <enochlau> and report back after 1 month
[21:44] <cartman02au> I only pic victoria because that is where the most people are who are interested in setting up WMA
[21:44] <enochlau> Mark_Ryan: smog is nice
[21:44] <cartman02au> *pick
[21:44] <Angela> 5-6 weeks sounds ideal.
[21:45] <Alphax> alright, shall we say... May 29th?
[21:45] <cartman02au> somewhere around there yes
[21:45] <Alphax> or is Monday night not good?
[21:45] <Mark_Ryan> enochlau, I'm thinking of moving to Los Angeles just for the air
[21:45] <cartman02au> so long as it isnt may 25
[21:45] <pfctdayelise> mon=good
[21:45] <cartman02au> Mon=OK for me
[21:45] <Alphax> alright
[21:45] <pfctdayelise> says us who attended :)
[21:45] <enochlau> monday is ok
[21:45] <cartman02au> LOL
[21:45] <enochlau> i prefer weekends though
[21:45] <Angela> Anything after may 28 is ok with me.
[21:45] <pru> 29 is good
[21:45] <Mark_Ryan> can't we make it a Saturday night? :P
[21:45] <pru> Why?
[21:45] <enochlau> i dont always have the luxury of having no class tomorrow
[21:46] <Alphax> Mark_Ryan, yes, sure.
[21:46] <cartman02au> We can discuss it on meta
[21:46] <enochlau> yep
[21:46] <Alphax> right.
[21:46] <enochlau> as before
[21:46] <Mark_Ryan> it's not as if any of us here have Lives.
[21:46] <enochlau> any sydney ppl here?
[21:46] <EuropracBHIT> :-D
[21:46] <Mark_Ryan> does anyone really think they'll be out on a Saturday night?
[21:46] <cartman02au> if we had lives we wouldnt be wikifreaks lol
[21:46] <enochlau> who edits on a friday night?
[21:46] <pfctdayelise> assignments are a good substitute for lives, you know
[21:46] <enochlau> im asking about sydney cos we're supposed to have another wikimeet in may
[21:46] <cartman02au> Mark: What are you trying to say?
[21:47] <Mark_Ryan> I am on IRC every night.
[21:47] <Ali_K> il be out on saturday nights
[21:47] <Angela> please add suggestions to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Meeting_3 - I don't think IRC ever works very well for deciding on meeting times
[21:47] <enochlau> awww
[21:47] <Mark_Ryan> cartman02au, I'm calling us all geeks.
[21:47] <cartman02au> Well I am I think
[21:47] <pfctdayelise> hey Mark, I'll be out all right... at work!!!
[21:47] <enochlau> ...
[21:47] <Mark_Ryan> everyone join the mailing list if you haven't done so yet
[21:47] <cartman02au> I had a wiki holidat last week though
[21:47] <cartman02au> please yes join it
[21:47] <pfctdayelise> yes, mailing list!
[21:47] <enochlau> i dont get how to use it
[21:47] <cartman02au> If you don't join it I will harm your children or something
[21:48] <enochlau> i get the digest delivered once a day
[21:48] <enochlau> how do i reply to a particular message?
[21:48] <cartman02au> it's easier if you have individual messages for that
[21:48] <enochlau> :S
[21:48] <Mark_Ryan> so the ultimate conclusion of this meeting is to appoint me chairperson of the committee and resolve to set up the Association office in Perth?
[21:48] <enochlau> ok
[21:48] <enochlau> *New Zealand
[21:48] <EuropracBHIT> :-D at New Zealand.
[21:48] <Mark_Ryan> enochlau, just reply to it
[21:48] <Alphax> Mark_Ryan, er....
[21:48] <pfctdayelise> hey did anyone notice the kiwis invited us to their meetup? we never invited them, did we? :)
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> No ...
[21:49] <Mark_Ryan> the messages are so infrequent your message won't go unread
[21:49] <cartman02au> Who invited us?
[21:49] <Alphax> what?? they have enough people for a meetup?
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> And it was the New Zealanders who did it in the first place ...
[21:49] <Alphax> :D
[21:49] <enochlau> Mark_Ryan: but how does it know what thread to put it in?
[21:49] <Ali_K> LOL
[21:49] <enochlau> if i just reply like that
[21:49] <Mark_Ryan> I suppose they need the numbers more than us.
[21:49] <Ali_K> how do i subscribe?
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> Um, you make a thread.
[21:49] <enochlau> wikisheep
[21:49] <enochlau> sheep can edit
[21:49] <pfctdayelise> mail.wikimedia.org.au
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> :-D
[21:49] <Ali_K> ah right,
[21:49] <Mark_Ryan> enochlau, it happens on WikiEN-l all the time. not much you can do about it
[21:49] <Alphax> Ali_K, topic
[21:49] <EuropracBHIT> This is the funniest wikimeeting I've ever been to.
[21:49] <enochlau> ok
[21:49] <Ali_K> i see, lol, too busy eating cookies
[21:50] <cartman02au> mmmmmm cookies
[21:50] <enochlau> so are we done for tonight?
[21:50] <enochlau> if so, i must bid u all farewell
[21:50] <pfctdayelise> hello people, bikkies :P
[21:50] <cartman02au> Yes we are finished
[21:50] <cartman02au> goodnight
[21:50] <Alphax> yeah
[21:50] <EuropracBHIT> Bye Enoch.
[21:50] <enochlau> cya
[21:50] <Mark_Ryan> As chairperson, I would like to officially end this meeting.
[21:50] <cartman02au> can you send the cookies over IRC?
[21:50] * pfctdayelise snorts
[21:50] <Mark_Ryan> and I will end the meeting with a recital of the Rosary
[21:51] * EuropracBHIT snorts
[21:51] <Bduke> Bye all
[21:51] <pru> Hope their Anzac biscuits!
[21:51] <pfctdayelise> *plug* help improve w:CSIRO, it's the ACOTF! */plug*
[21:51] <Alphax> cya Bduke
[21:51] * EuropracBHIT hopes so too.
[21:51] <Angela> Bye.
[21:51] <EuropracBHIT> We will!
[21:51] * Mark_Ryan waves good night to the eastern statesers 1.5-2 hours in the future
[21:51] <pru> Bye all.
[21:51] <pfctdayelise> I will also depart. until next time, chaps.
[21:51] * pfctdayelise tips hat
[21:51] <Alphax> cya pru
[21:52] <Alphax> I think there's only one way to declare the meeting over
[21:52] * Alphax changes topic to 'Wikimedia Australia | Meeting over - see the agenda at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Australia/Meeting_2#Agenda | http://www.wikimedia.org.au/ | Please subscribe to the mailing list: http://mail.wikimedia.org.au/ | Recent changes: http://rc.wikimedia.org.au'
[21:53] <Alphax> Done. Right, can we have a log somewhere?