Wikimedia UK/November 13th meeting on IRC

A meeting took place on IRC on the 13th of November, 2005 to discuss progress on Wikimedia UK

5:55pm	JamesF:	Heya all.
5:55pm	smoddy:	Hi James
5:56pm	JamesF:	How is everyone?
5:56pm	smoddy:	sick, very sick
5:58pm	Angela:	I'm fine. Other than having to be in 2 meetings at once and not really being prepared for either.
5:58pm	JamesF:	Oh dear.
5:58pm	JamesF:	Angela> The Board meeting's now, too?
5:58pm	JamesF:	Or another one?
5:59pm	cormaggio:	Hi there
6:00pm	cormaggio:	I'm not sure how many will come to this meeting - VampWillow said she'd try to make it on time but might be late; Gordon already sent his apologies..
6:00pm	Angela:	JamesF: yes.
6:00pm	cormaggio:	Hmm - I thought the board meeting was yesterday, but anyway
6:01pm	cormaggio:	Angela> is the seed wiki idea on the agenda?
6:01pm	JamesF:	It was meant to be yesterday.
6:01pm	Angela:	Anthere couldn't make yesterday.
6:01pm	JamesF:	Yeah.
6:01pm	JamesF:	Angela> Is my report useful?
6:02pm	Angela:	Yes, it is. Thanks.
6:02pm	Angela:	Seed wiki is on the agenda now.
6:03pm	cormaggio:	yes, I just saw that
6:04pm	cormaggio:	what about our agenda here?
6:04pm	cormaggio:	should we wait around a bit longer?
6:05pm	JamesF:	has an early draft of the MoA sent by Alison.
6:05pm	JamesF:	But that was a week ago.
6:05pm	JamesF:	And she's probably re-written it a few times since.
6:06pm	cormaggio:	Angela> i set up m:Seed wiki and notified people who expressed an interest at the August open board meeting, ie Danny, Delphine, Yann and VampWillow..
6:06pm	cormaggio:	Ok thanks James
6:07pm	JamesF:	So, wait a bit seems the best option.
6:08pm	JamesF:	Having said that, I've only got about an hour-and-a-half...
6:08pm	cormaggio:	you mean for VampWillow?
6:08pm	cormaggio:	I reckon she'll be later than that..
6:08pm	JamesF:	Hmm.
6:08pm	cormaggio:	maybe..
6:08pm	cormaggio:	what can we discuss in the meantime?
6:09pm	cormaggio:	for my part, i've done nothing :-)
6:09pm	JamesF:	isn't sure. :-)
6:09pm	JamesF:	I've only read Alison's draft a few times and reviewed.
6:09pm	JamesF:	But we're going for the short-and-sweet version, so there's not much of it anway.
6:09pm	JamesF:	+y
6:09pm	shimgray	joined the chat room.
6:09pm	cormaggio:	is it not time to put something like that on-wiki so at least we can see what we're talking about?
6:09pm	shimgray:	evening all.
6:10pm	cormaggio:	hi shimgray
6:10pm	JamesF:	Cormac> I could put it up, certainly, but discussion might not be very pointful.
6:10pm	JamesF:	Cormac> Should I fire away nonetheless?
6:11pm	cormaggio:	i still think it might be beneficial for others, yes
6:11pm	JamesF:	OK.
6:14pm	smoddy:	when does this meeting start then?
6:15pm	cormaggio:	smoddy> it's a bit vague - we're kinda waiting for VampWillow, but she might be late and I'm waiting for James to put up the document they've been working on
6:15pm	cormaggio:	fire away with any ideas yourself though
6:15pm	smoddy:	I don't have ideas
6:15pm	smoddy:	I'm a voyeur here
6:16pm	cormaggio:	ok :-)
6:16pm	shimgray:	not the most enticing of things to voyeur at, surely?
6:16pm	delphine:	can someone put relevant links in the topic please ;)
6:16pm	cormaggio:	are you interested in helping out with Wikimedia Uk in some way, though? in what capacity if so?
6:16pm	smoddy:	shimgray> this is vaguely legal, though
6:16pm	cormaggio:	Delphine> OK :-p
6:17pm	delphine:	:P
6:17pm	smoddy:	cormaggio> certainly. I have a flair for writing emails, so I would like to do some kind of contact role if that's helpful
6:17pm	cormaggio:	that would help, certainly
6:17pm	cormaggio:	we'll need to do lots of that
6:18pm	smoddy:	I help on the info-en worldwide queue
6:18pm	smoddy:	(actually, I don't at the moment, because I got seriously depressed with answering the same emails, but there we ar)
6:19pm	You	changed the topic to "Meeting today at 18:00 UTC - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK (and related links)".
6:20pm	cormaggio:	is that ok? I've made a template also for the top of related pages, for ease of navigation
6:21pm	cormaggio:	smoddy> I know what you mean - helpdesk has gotten ridiculous
6:22pm	shimgray:	It was a good idea, and worked decently for the dozen-a-day rate, but then it exploded...
6:23pm	cormaggio:	yeah, i think we just need to put up better help pages for a start..
6:23pm	smoddy:	I have been about to rewrite the help namespace for six months
6:23pm	cormaggio:	absolutely crystal clear and bog-simple information
6:24pm	cormaggio:	smoddy> maybe it's about time for a wikiproject?
6:24pm	smoddy:	that, my friend, is an excellent idea
6:24pm	smoddy:	it would be one of the most useful wikiprojects there would be
6:24pm	shimgray:	(that said, I'm writing to a guy just now who mentioned that he emailed helpdesk-l and never got a reply, which is making me a bit guilty about unsubscribing from it)
6:25pm	cormaggio:	:-)
6:25pm	smoddy:	damn, I'm not eligible for membership of WMFUK under the current bylaws
6:25pm	cormaggio:	i remember help on meta was the collaboration of the week - but we need to do more, i think
6:25pm	cormaggio:	smoddy> why's that?
6:26pm	smoddy:	I'm 16
6:26pm	cormaggio:	hmm
6:26pm	cormaggio:	i don't know why that's there - point taken
6:26pm	delphine:	cormaggio can't that be a ground legal requirement?
6:27pm	cormaggio:	i remember James mentioning it once though
6:27pm	cormaggio:	delphine> what's that?
6:27pm	delphine:	I mean, I don't know, but maybe being a member of an association of some kind requires you to be 18
6:27pm	delphine:	dunno
6:27pm	smoddy:	if it's necessary, perhaps junior membership would be a good idea, considering how many editors are u-18
6:27pm	delphine:	could be to prevent brainwash and such
6:27pm	delphine:	smoddy :)
6:27pm	cormaggio:	smoddy> you are now under our control..
6:27pm	delphine:	muwahhhhhh
6:28pm	smoddy:	I am under your control
6:28pm	smoddy:	you are my master
6:28pm	JamesF:	Umm.
6:28pm	smoddy:	prostrate himself
6:28pm	delphine:	\o/
6:28pm	smoddy:	sorry, James
6:28pm	JamesF:	We're sort-of discarding the bylaws themselves.
6:28pm	shimgray:	Not sure, I think you may have to have a specialised membership class... but you can join a union under 18, so no rational reason you can't join a charity.
6:28pm	JamesF:	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association
6:28pm	JamesF:	Sorry it took so long to reformat.
6:29pm	JamesF:	As I said, draft.
6:29pm	cormaggio:	ok, great, something to talk about
6:29pm	JamesF:	That's the vanilla version I got over a week ago.
6:29pm	JamesF:	I've made some changes myself.
6:29pm	JamesF:	Will incorporate those now, if that's all right.
6:29pm	cormaggio:	James> while i read this, is there any reason for making age of membership over 18?
6:30pm	JamesF:	But wanted the original in the edit history.
6:30pm	smoddy:	"The Companyís registered office shall be situated in England." - any particular reason why not Wales/Scotland/NI? incompatible encoding
6:30pm	JamesF:	Cormac> Legally binding contracts can't be signed by those under 18, so, yes.
6:30pm	cormaggio:	James> make any changes you like
6:30pm	shimgray:	smoddy: Keeps our options open if you have to pick one, I guess.
6:30pm	JamesF:	smoddy> No, but it's /highly/ likely that the Chair will live in England, and we have to pick one.
6:30pm	cormaggio:	Ah ok, smoddy, you have your answer
6:30pm	shimgray:	(finding somewhere else to get an address in England is easier than finding another in Wales)
6:31pm	smoddy:	I'm in Wales
6:31pm	smoddy:	gets touchy about these things
6:31pm	shimgray:	Yup. But the pool of Welsh wikipedians is substantially smaller than of English ones.
6:31pm	smoddy:	I believe it's three or four
6:32pm	smoddy:	fair enough, I just didn't know why we had to be so specific
6:32pm	delphine:	JamesF can't you have a line that says "the Company's office will be situated at the home of its chair?"
6:32pm	delphine:	that's what we have
6:32pm	JamesF:	I'm not sure.
6:32pm	shimgray:	FWIW, that's the same as the active number here in Edinburgh :-)
6:32pm	JamesF:	But that is where it would be, yes.
6:33pm	JamesF:	We'd have to have either England or Wales.
6:33pm	JamesF:	Of course.
6:33pm	delphine:	JamesF if that's ok, then anyone can be chair, whether situated in England or Wales or whatever
6:33pm	delphine:	and smoddy can be happy :P
6:33pm	cormaggio:	yes, Up Wales
6:33pm	smoddy:	heh
6:33pm	cormaggio:	I'm Irish, so I'd have to say that
6:33pm	smoddy:	Wikimedia England just sounds, well, exclusive...
6:34pm	smoddy:	Up Ireland
6:34pm	cormaggio:	:-)
6:34pm	JamesF:	Delphine> Yes, but the wording "wherever the Chair lives" may not be OK.
6:34pm	JamesF:	Delphine> That is, we might have to change the MoA each time a new Chair is picked, if they live in a different Part.
6:34pm	JamesF:	Or if they moved.
6:34pm	shimgray:	possibly more, if they lived in Scotland
6:35pm	You	changed the topic to "Meeting today at 18:00 UTC - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association".
6:35pm	JamesF:	Might be an issue.
6:35pm	delphine:	Well, yes, but that would make sense
6:35pm	delphine:	until you have an office
6:35pm	shimgray:	(not sure if charity law differs over the border)
6:35pm	You	changed the topic to "Meeting today at 18:00 UTC - see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK and http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association".
6:35pm	JamesF:	Given that this would be under the law of England and Wales ("English law").
6:35pm	cormaggio:	oops sorry
6:35pm	delphine:	you don't want to have the charity have its HQ at some guy's home who's not involved anymore and doesn't want to
6:35pm	JamesF:	shimgray> It is. We've decided to go with English rather than Scottish.
6:35pm	smoddy:	how about "the Company's office will be located on the nomination of the Chair"?
6:35pm	JamesF:	delphine> Yes.
6:35pm	shimgray:	[nods] Sensible.
6:36pm	JamesF:	is not the expert on these things.
6:36pm	smoddy:	(or words to that effect -- there's an unfortunate double-entendre in that statement)
6:36pm	JamesF:	That could be OK.
6:36pm	cormaggio:	sounds good to me
6:36pm	JamesF:	smoddy> Indeed there is. :-)
6:36pm	delphine:	JamesF well, for the founding part, you will have to pick something
6:36pm	delphine:	it can just be a geltleman's agreement
6:36pm	delphine:	in some kind ot interior rulebook
6:37pm	delphine:	for example
6:37pm	delphine:	that the HQ will change with the Chair
6:37pm	cormaggio:	surely the company's office will have more than just one chair?
6:37pm	cormaggio:	sorry
6:37pm	smoddy:	there may be many chairs, but there's only one Chair
6:37pm	cormaggio:	ho hum
6:37pm	smoddy:	one chair to rule them all...
6:38pm	delphine:	cormaggio depends
6:38pm	shimgray:	cormaggio: You get much more business done if no-one can sit down...
6:38pm	delphine:	if you get money, you get chairs
6:38pm	delphine:	if not..
6:38pm	delphine:	it's the floor
6:38pm	delphine:	I can provide cushions
6:38pm	cormaggio:	prfers cushions
6:38pm	cormaggio:	or prefers even
6:39pm	cormaggio:	proferrs cushions (how do you spell that?)
6:39pm	JamesF:	OK, changes made.
6:40pm	JamesF:	Argh.
6:40pm	JamesF:	No, changes not made.
6:40pm	JamesF:	The database has been blocked.
6:40pm	cormaggio:	yes, changes not made
6:40pm	shimgray:	did that yesterday, was only five minutes or so.
6:40pm	delphine:	JamesF wait, I just saw
6:40pm	delphine:	does it HAVE to be called Foundation?
6:40pm	delphine:	:/
6:40pm	JamesF:	That's one of the changes I'm making.
6:40pm	JamesF:	Trying to make.
6:41pm	delphine:	ok
6:41pm	shimgray:	hmm. I take it 4.a) allows the NotFoundation to raise funds by anything that isn't either illegal or an actual business?
6:41pm	JamesF:	"Wikimedia UK Limited" is much better.
6:41pm	delphine:	oh YES
6:41pm	cormaggio:	yess
6:41pm	delphine:	think of the mix up :/
6:42pm	JamesF:	Unlocked, and saved.
6:42pm	JamesF:	Yes.
6:42pm	smoddy:	oh heck "the financial statement has to be available at the seat of the Association"
6:42pm	JamesF:	If we have "Foundation" in our name, people will think that we're official.
6:42pm	JamesF:	And if we're official, we're sue-able.
6:42pm	smoddy:	hmmm, sneaky
6:42pm	shimgray:	we're legally okay with using the name Wikimedia, I take it?
6:42pm	JamesF:	And then we're potentially thrown in gaol for criminal libel, etc.
6:42pm	cormaggio:	no can sue
6:42pm	smoddy:	I was wondering how we'd get round that
6:43pm	smoddy:	what if we host servers?
6:43pm	JamesF:	shimgray> We'll have a trademark licensing contract with WMF.
6:43pm	JamesF:	smoddy> We don't.
6:43pm	smoddy:	JamesF> oh
6:43pm	JamesF:	smoddy> Though we can give grants to organisations that do.
6:43pm	JamesF:	Such as, oh, WMF.
6:43pm	JamesF:	Anyway, my changes are madwe.
6:43pm	JamesF:	Made.
6:44pm	smoddy:	fair enough
6:44pm	smoddy:	but we don't host servers
6:44pm	JamesF:	Definitely.
6:44pm	JamesF:	Well, I may donate wiki hosting for wikimedia.org.uk for a private wiki.
6:45pm	shimgray:	hmm. 4.b) says we can buy servers, and 4.c) says we can give them to someone who does...
6:45pm	JamesF:	Stuff with all our information in it, etc.
6:45pm	JamesF:	shimgray> Yah. It's the actual hosting/running them that's a no-no, AIUI.
6:45pm	shimgray:	(a quick glance suggests s.36 and 37 of the 1993 Act only apply to land)
6:45pm	smoddy:	AIUI?
6:45pm	JamesF:	As I Understand It.
6:45pm	shimgray:	(and I have a hard time coming up with a reason for us to own land)
6:46pm	JamesF:	shimgray> Someone might donate property to us.
6:46pm	shimgray:	(though, oh, the comedy potential...)
6:46pm	JamesF:	shimgray> If we didn't have such things in the MoA, it would be illegal for us to accept it.
6:46pm	shimgray:	[nods]
6:46pm	JamesF:	This is just to help with that.
6:46pm	JamesF:	Similarly, we're unlikely to need a fund manager very soon.
6:46pm	JamesF:	But it's in the MoA anyway.
6:46pm	smoddy:	JamesF> would you like a 1 foot square corner of my garden?
6:47pm	JamesF:	'Cos changing the MoA is a pain, and can't be done retrospectively.
6:47pm	JamesF:	smoddy> Getting the deeds redrawn would be frightfully expensive. I'd prefer the percuniary value of the fees, TBH. :-)
6:47pm	smoddy:	damn
6:47pm	smoddy:	I hoped someone else might cut it
6:47pm	shimgray:	besides, you're 16, surely you can't be disposing of land...
6:48pm	JamesF:	Also, that too.
6:48pm	smoddy:	shimgray> legal niceties
6:48pm	JamesF:	grins.
6:48pm	JamesF:	Hmm.
6:49pm	JamesF:	Anyway, as you all can see, the MoA needs a bit more work.
6:49pm	cormaggio:	James> was this document drafted from scratch or did you use the given templates by the charities commission?
6:49pm	shimgray:	("My son", said the Welsh gardener, "I am dying, and don't want to mow / All those broad acres in Cardiff, so lease them to some other schmuck")
6:49pm	shimgray:	(needs work)
6:50pm	JamesF:	I think it's from actual Real Life(tm) MoAs that Alison has previously written, together will new stuff.
6:50pm	cormaggio:	it's quite good anyway, I like it
6:50pm	shimgray:	any idea what else to put in 3.*?
6:51pm	cormaggio:	we're not going to mention aims, are we (ie literacy etc..)
6:51pm	smoddy:	to make members of Wikimedia UK Ltd Very Rich
6:51pm	cormaggio:	smoddy> shh ;-)
6:52pm	JamesF:	Hmm. How about, There was an old gardener from Wales, Who caught a bad cold in the gales, Told his so not to mow, Did his back in you know, But to lease land for making straw bales.
6:52pm	smoddy:	I knew a member of a local council once who defrauded a charity...
6:52pm	cormaggio:	James> :-)
6:53pm	cormaggio:	good ol' Limericks
6:53pm	JamesF:	If random people want to give money directly to WMUK Board members, etc., I'm fine with that.
6:53pm	jguk4	joined the chat room.
6:53pm	JamesF:	But defrauding charities is such an ugly way to make money.
6:53pm	JamesF:	Umm.
6:53pm	JamesF:	Heya jguk.
6:53pm	shimgray:	is trying to come up with something the project might want to do that isn't covered in 3)
6:53pm	jguk4:	hello - apologies for being v late
6:53pm	JamesF:	What brilliant timing. :-)
6:53pm	smoddy:	james> but nonetheless effective
6:53pm	jguk4:	I didn't think I'd make it at all (caught up in traffic)
6:54pm	JamesF:	jguk> You're not quite as late as Alison. Don't worry. :-)
6:54pm	jwales	joined the chat room.
6:54pm	jguk4:	JamesF - why brilliant timing?
6:55pm	shimgray:	you got to hear James confess his Seekrit Criminal Conspiracy
6:55pm	Anthere	joined the chat room.
6:55pm	JamesF:	Heya Jimbo
6:55pm	JamesF:	jguk> My comment about defrauding charities.
6:55pm	JamesF:	jguk> Didn't you get it?
6:55pm	cormaggio:	smimgray> I reckon you'd be hard-pressed to find something that isn't covered under 1-3
6:55pm	JamesF:	Heya Anthere, too.
6:55pm	Anthere:	lo james
6:55pm	cormaggio:	welcome all
6:55pm	JamesF:	Cormac> That's the idea. :-)
6:56pm	cormaggio:	yeah - good job, I think
6:56pm	shimgray:	"full of sound and fury, signifying everything"
6:56pm	JamesF:	Anyway.
6:57pm	jguk4:	James, if, now Jimbo's arrived, you wish to confess anything, please go ahead:)
6:57pm	JamesF:	To what do we owe the pleasure of having well over half of our illustrious Board present? ;-)
6:57pm	JamesF:	jguk> Hush, you. :-)
6:57pm	delphine:	JamesF they're b(o)ared in the board meeting I suppose
6:57pm	JamesF:	Anyway, http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association is our current draft of the MoA
6:58pm	JamesF:	Delphine> :_)
6:58pm	smoddy:	"to encourage the dissemination of free knowledge"?
6:58pm	delphine:	JamesF they're bo(a)red in the board meeting I suppose
6:58pm	JamesF:	Delphine> More grammatically correct, yes.
6:58pm	JamesF:	But the drafter of the MoA is off, so...
6:59pm	jguk4:	James - has a UK charity law expert seen it yet?
6:59pm	JamesF:	Not yet, no.
6:59pm	JamesF:	and Alison may meet up and go to the Charities Commission, perhaps.
6:59pm	smoddy:	1.3d : "to encourage the dissemination of free knowledge"?
7:00pm	cormaggio:	1.a) "to enable and assist the wider participation of individuals and groups of individuals in the creation, dissemination, and expansion of information resources covering the world's knowledge and languages to all persons everywhere" - i think this covers it
7:00pm	delphine:	JamesF don't forget to have the Memorandum translated
7:00pm	delphine:	:P
7:00pm	JamesF:	Delphine> Into what? :-)
7:00pm	shimgray:	a "freely" in there might help
7:00pm	shimgray:	(or at least sound good)
7:00pm	delphine:	JamesF US English would be a good start
7:00pm	jguk4:	Is SecretLondon confessing to be a UK charity law expert?
7:00pm	JamesF:	Delphine> There are at least 8 languages with differing levels of recognition in the UK. And English isn't one of them.
7:01pm	smoddy:	sorry, all, have to go
7:01pm	smoddy	is now known as smoddy-away.
7:01pm	cormaggio:	bye smoddy
7:01pm	JamesF:	jguk> More of a familiarity than expertise, I think.
7:01pm	delphine:	JamesF you gave up on the "situated in England part?"
7:01pm	JamesF:	Delphine> Certainly, "shewn" probably isn't understood by many Merkins, but...
7:02pm	JamesF:	Delphine> Will add a suggestion to change it, yes.
7:02pm	JamesF:	Thanks for reminding me. :-)
7:02pm	jguk4:	James - did you say you had a friend who is an expert who you might be able to persuade to do a pro bono?
7:02pm	JamesF:	I will ask.
7:03pm	JamesF:	But we may have to pay.
7:03pm	jguk4:	Do we have draft Articles of Association?
7:03pm	JamesF:	No, but the AoA will be absolutely identical to any other's, apparently.
7:03pm	jguk4:	Table A?
7:03pm	jguk4:	We should still check that we are ok with that
7:04pm	cormaggio:	jon> you've seen the MoA?
7:04pm	JamesF:	Of course.
7:04pm	jguk4:	I've seen the MoA Cormac, yes
7:04pm	cormaggio:	what's table A?
7:05pm	jguk4:	Table A is attached to the Companies Act, and is a standard form of Articles of Association - and holds good unless the company passes a resolution to have different Articles
7:05pm	cormaggio:	right, thanks
7:05pm	jguk4:	There are a number of different tables - actually Table A is for a with-profit company limited by shares - there will be another one for a charity limited by guarantee
7:06pm	jguk4:	Look - the MoA is defective in a number of basic ways
7:07pm	jguk4:	for instance - it does not say what the guarantee is
7:07pm	cormaggio:	so these are all available from the charities commission website?
7:07pm	jguk4:	Cormac - no - the opsi website
7:07pm	jguk4:	I think
7:07pm	jguk4:	or maybe from a library
7:07pm	JamesF:	jguk> We've not decided yet, though.
7:07pm	shimgray:	what year's the Act?
7:07pm	jguk4:	Look - if this is going to happen we need to get our act together
7:07pm	jguk4:	Companies Act 1985 (but amended by lots of SIs!)
7:08pm	cormaggio:	jon> maybe you could add a link here or somewhere when you get the chance
7:08pm	shimgray:	Ah. '89 is online, 85 isn't.
7:08pm	jguk4:	There are standard MoAs and AoAs we can use
7:08pm	JamesF:	We know.
7:08pm	jguk4:	Shimgray - the Tables regularly get amended by SIs
7:09pm	jguk4:	Is the idea to have everything ready to go to Companies House and the Charities Commission for approval in a real-life meeting on 27 November?
7:09pm	cormaggio:	sounds optimistic
7:09pm	cormaggio:	but if we could do it, why not?
7:10pm	cormaggio:	what do we need to that end?
7:10pm	jguk4:	Why not? Is Alison going to deliver on the MoA and AoA?
7:11pm	JamesF:	On the 27th?
7:11pm	JamesF:	On a Sunday?
7:11pm	cormaggio:	Alison should be here later - don't know when
7:11pm	Angela:	you'd need them approved by the Board before that#
7:11pm	JamesF:	I doubt they'll be open...
7:11pm	cormaggio:	i presume jon meant to have the documentation ready
7:11pm	JamesF:	Angela> Getting them legally un-OK'ed after wasting the Board's time approving them, you mean? :-)
7:11pm	JamesF:	Oh, right.
7:11pm	jguk4:	I did - to be approved by the proposed UK Chapter
7:11pm	JamesF:	Yeah.
7:12pm	Angela:	There's not much point paying for legal approval if the Board then want changes.
7:12pm	JamesF:	We wouldn't pay the Charities Commission, surely?
7:12pm	cormaggio:	how long would board approval take?
7:12pm	cormaggio:	or is that terribly hypothetical?
7:13pm	jguk4:	Angela - the changes the Board will want would be to what are Clauses 3 and 4 of the MoA, I'd imagine - not in the minutiae of the rest of it
7:13pm	delphine:	Angela there is. Not approval as a definite thing, but if there are things intrinsequely wrong with the MoA form the start, there's not poin in the board giving their opinion on things and suggest changes
7:13pm	jguk4:	Everything else would be pretty much standard text required by UK law
7:13pm	delphine:	jguk4 this has to be a two way process, I would say
7:14pm	jguk4:	As SecretLondon rightly points out on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_and_UK_charity_law
7:14pm	Angela:	If going to the CC doens't cost anything, I don't suppose there's much difference which way round it's done.
7:14pm	delphine:	first board, then legal UK approval, and if changed are made, legal questions asked to a legal perosn competent in the field
7:14pm	Angela:	The Board aren't likely to approve anything before December though.
7:14pm	jguk4:	a UK charity necessarily has to have control over its funds - would the Board find that acceptable?
7:14pm	Angela:	Yes, I think so.
7:15pm	cormaggio:	delphine> sounds reasonable
7:15pm	jguk4:	Then I'm sure we'd be talking mostly about Clauses 3 and 4 of the draft MoA - not the rest of the necessary documentation
7:16pm	delphine:	and btw, the Foundation is ready to pay for legal advice
7:16pm	JamesF:	Delphine> Has the plan been approved? Or do you mean in a one-off sort of way?
7:16pm	jguk4:	James - can you take responsibility for finding a UK Charity Law lawyer - either your mate - or advertise on the WP UK noticeboard for one - or else see how much one will cost, etc
7:16pm	delphine:	I have confidence that the plan is being approved...As we speak ;)
7:17pm	delphine:	but I guess Angela, Anthere and jwales could tell us better :P
7:17pm	JamesF:	jguk> I could, I suppose. But Alison is far more likely to actually know of one.
7:17pm	jguk4:	I can draft up a proper MoA and AoA (absent Clauses 3 and 4) myself by 27 Nov (but probably not much sooner)
7:17pm	JamesF:	jguk> But I'll try to find one, albeit possibly through her.
7:17pm	delphine:	JamesF and one proficient in internatioanl organisations and with some knowledge of US charities would be even better
7:17pm	jguk4:	James - if you taking responsibility means you get Alison to do it, then that's great - but I think we need definite progress
7:18pm	JamesF:	Delphine> There are probably 3 or 4 such people in the whole world.
7:18pm	JamesF:	jguk> Absolutely.
7:18pm	delphine:	JamesF oh come on!
7:18pm	JamesF:	Delphine> But I'll try, nonetheless.
7:18pm	Angela:	What plan? Do you mean the money for new chapters plan? If so, that's basically just been approved.
7:19pm	delphine:	\o/
7:19pm	cormaggio:	jon> what are the parts of articles in 3 and 4 that bother you so much? Are we talking about our existing MoA?
7:19pm	jguk4:	I'm talking about http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association
7:19pm	JamesF:	Angela> Right-o.
7:19pm	cormaggio:	ok, so what parts?
7:19pm	jguk4:	In 3a - the reference to "individuals" excludes unnatural persons, why?
7:19pm	JamesF:	Delphine> Congrats.
7:20pm	delphine:	JamesF I didn't do it, Florence did
7:20pm	jguk4:	In fact 3a can be read as preventing us giving money to the Wikimedia Foundation, as it is a corporate body, not an individual
7:20pm	JamesF:	jguk> It only implicitly excludes unnatural persons.
7:20pm	JamesF:	jguk> No, 3a is an aim, not a means.
7:21pm	JamesF:	As it were.
7:21pm	shimgray:	4.f is the "giving money" part, no?
7:21pm	jguk4:	James - it is an object - acting outside of the objects is ultra vires
7:21pm	jguk4:	It's for reasons such as that that a lawyer needs to be brought in
7:23pm	JamesF:	nods.
7:23pm	JamesF:	Hmm.
7:23pm	JamesF:	I have to go soon. :-(
7:23pm	jguk4:	OK - let's agree on actions
7:24pm	jguk4:	I will put together a revised MoA and AoA for discussion by the end of Sunday 20 November
7:24pm	jguk4:	(unless there are any objections)
7:24pm	jguk4:	James will find a lawyer (whether that means getting Alison to get one or not, is up to James:) )
7:25pm	jguk4:	Where is the real-life meeting on Sunday 27 November?
7:25pm	JamesF:	Same place as last month's meeting.
7:25pm	cormaggio:	jon> why don't you work on or comment on the existing MoA? That was the point of putting it on-wiki?
7:25pm	JamesF:	A pub in South London.
7:25pm	shimgray:	(specifically?
7:25pm	JamesF:	Jimbo will be there, too.
7:25pm	JamesF:	I can dig around and find its name.
7:25pm	JamesF:	One moment.
7:26pm	shimgray:	(will probably be in Oxford, so will try to come down and be productive)
7:26pm	jguk4:	James - can you put the full name and address on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK#Future_meeting ?
7:26pm	JamesF:	shimgray> Cool.
7:26pm	JamesF:	jguk> Absolutely.
7:26pm	cormaggio:	shimgray> check past meetings on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
7:26pm	jguk4:	Jimbo - will you? :)
7:26pm	jguk4:	Cormac - I'll add my amendments to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Memorandum_of_Association
7:27pm	shimgray:	ta.
7:27pm	jguk4:	and will create a new http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK/Articles_of_Association
7:27pm	cormaggio:	thanks jon
7:27pm	jguk4:	linked from the main UK page
7:27pm	cormaggio:	i'll add it to the template too
7:27pm	jguk4:	Anything we've missed?
7:27pm	jguk4:	Cormac, Shimgray - maybe we should give you something to do:)
7:28pm	cormaggio:	gimme work :-)
7:28pm	cormaggio:	well, I'm thinking about possible projects - could keep brainstorming them..
7:28pm	jguk4:	The only thing I've noticed is that we may wish to have a few more active members (though probably not too many)
7:28pm	JamesF:	jguk> Done.
7:29pm	jguk4:	maybe encourage a few good people along?
7:29pm	cormaggio:	i think membership so far is ok - considering we don't exist yet - but the more the merrier
7:29pm	JamesF:	Yes.
7:30pm	JamesF:	More people would be good.
7:30pm	jguk4:	Just we don't want the number of attendees at a real-life meet to get out of hand - I'm all for a bit of a social get-together, but there will need to be a time for serious discussion
7:31pm	JamesF:	Yes.
7:31pm	jguk4:	OK, anything more to discuss now?
7:31pm	jguk4:	Actually, can I make sure I have everyone's WP names?
7:31pm	delphine:	>notafish
7:31pm	JamesF:	is James F.
7:32pm	cormaggio:	I'm the same everywhere: Cormaggio
7:32pm	jguk4:	Shimgray?
7:32pm	shimgray:	Shimgray.
7:32pm	jguk4:	(I'm jguk, of course:) )
7:32pm	shimgray:	(on en, not active on meta)
7:32pm	cormaggio:	There's also Loopzilla (Gordon) Francs2000 (Graham) ...
7:33pm	jguk4:	I'll drop notes on everyone's talk pages once I've added a revised MoA and added an AoA
7:33pm	cormaggio:	That's Francstwothousand on Meta
7:33pm	jguk4:	James can keep us up to date on the lawyer front
7:33pm	JamesF:	Will do.
7:33pm	JamesF:	Anyway, have to go.
7:33pm	JamesF	Away.
7:34pm	jguk4:	ok - AOB?
7:34pm	cormaggio:	I'll stick around here I think - until VampWillow comes along
7:34pm	delphine:	sticks cormaggio on the wall
7:34pm	cormaggio:	jon> dunno really
7:34pm	cormaggio:	hey lemme down!
7:35pm	jguk4:	If Alison pops along, let her know what we've agreed (I don't want to edge her out, but I think we need action now - and I appreciate it can be a lot of work and we're all busy)
7:35pm	jguk4:	hopefully she'll soon have more time to deal with things:)
7:35pm	cormaggio:	I think we've done enough today, but I'll try and keep everyone informed (and active)
7:36pm	jguk4:	Cormac - what did I miss before I turned up?
7:36pm	cormaggio:	let me see..
7:36pm	delphine:	cormaggio no chance, you can't compete with me :)
7:37pm	cormaggio:	that members need to to be over 18
7:38pm	jguk4:	is someone going to add the transcript to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK ?
7:38pm	cormaggio:	is finding it hard to type from position on the wall..
7:38pm	delphine:	lets cormaggio down
7:38pm	cormaggio:	ah relief
7:38pm	delphine:	:)
7:38pm	cormaggio:	jon> yes, I'll do that
7:39pm	jguk4:	Brilliant, I'll read what I missed later
7:39pm	jguk4:	Apologies for missing the first 40 or so minutes - I'll be on my way then, if there's nothing else:)
7:39pm	cormaggio:	no that's fine - thanks for coming along
7:40pm	jguk4:	by all
7:40pm	cormaggio:	see ya
7:40pm	delphine:	bue
7:40pm	delphine:	bye