Grants talk:PEG/Romaine/WLM BeLux 2014

Evaluation by the GAC

Grantee comments

We understand that our request is a little bit late as 1 September the contest started. This is in the first place because of our (potential) partners of which a part of them were difficult to reach during the holidays, and we want their approval. Second because of our own holidays and illness, which made it impossible to reach each other before 1 September. Besides our July meeting on which we decided to submit a grant, all activities with costs are still in the future: Wiki Takes ... a city on 28 September, judging session(s) in October and prize giving ceremony in November. Romaine (talk) 11:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Project & Event Grant instead of IEG?

Hi Romaine, thanks for writing up this proposal! I think it might actually be a better fit for a Project and Events Grant, because we fund most WLM initiatives via that type of grant - this could help speed up the process for your time-sensitive project as well. So, I'm paging my colleague Alex Wang, who works on that program, to see if she agrees. If so, she can likely help you move your page into the Project and Events Grant process. Alex, what do you think? Cheers, Siko (WMF) (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Siko, I trust you in assessing this, I am fine with it. The grant process itself is/was for me not really clear. Thanks! Romaine (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Romaine. Apologies if the grant submission process was not clear. This proposal does fall under Project and Events Grant. The proposal forms are relatively similar so I will go ahead and move the page and update the infobox. I will notify the Grant Advisory Committee that the proposal is ready for review. However, please note that the proposal is being submitted quite late for a Wiki Loves Monuments grant. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Alex Wang, Thank you for updating and moving the page. We are sadly aware of the timing of this submission, that is the reason why I wrote an explanation as first message on this talk page. As I wrote there, we felt it more important to have the external partnerships first cleared out and confirmed as we do not like to speculate in a request. (If there are opposite thoughts on this, we like to hear them to be able to have a better picture of what is expected next time.) In combination with holidays and illness it got delayed. Wiki Loves Monuments is a project of 3 months + preparations, in the period September - November. However, while some costs are made already, most costs of Wiki Loves Monuments BE/LUX are still in the future (mainly November). So we still hope that our costs can be covered with this grant request. Thank you for the help with our request. Romaine (talk) 19:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Romaine. Thank you for more of the background info. Can you please update the start date of the request to a date in the future to reflect when you would expect to start spending the funds (even if a few costs are retrospective)? Thanks, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 20:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Alex Wang, Done! The (next) first costs are with Wiki Takes... a city, and in October we start with judging sessions of the submissions. Romaine (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Polimerek questions

Regarding the measurements of success: we have now September 20 and it is not likley that you achive 16 000 pictures uploaded, as there are only 760 in Belgium and 79 in Luxembourg at the moment: See: [1]. On the other hand you have already fulfilled the target 2 - numbers of new contribiutors :-) Regarding budget: you can at the moment put real numbers of the activities which already happened such us July meeting or cost of website. By costs of website you mean exactly what? Polimerek (talk)

Hello Polimerek, The number of 16,000 is a cumulative number of the previous years and this year combined, describing this goal seen from the perspective from Wikipedia. We like to fill the lists of monuments with photos, as well as the articles about the individual monuments. One of our goals (goal I) with organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Belgium and Luxembourg is to make sure that more monuments are shown on Wikipedia with a photo. Be aware that in all editions of Wiki Loves Monuments it is/was common that the last week and last days have much more uploads than other weeks. Also on 28 September we organize a Wiki Takes (a city) with what many monuments photos being taken.

You ask for real numbers of the activities, then you mean the actual costs I assume? (or what other numbers?) I have to look up the receipts (or other numbers) later today when I am at home again. The costs of the website are directly born by Wikimedia Nederland, on request of us they provide us a website and domain name which they pay to the service provider. Romaine (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for clarification of measurement of success, now it looks more reasonable. Regarding "numbers" I mean real costs of the activities which already happened. Polimerek (talk) 17:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I have not received all the bills from my colleagues, but the costs are already € 128,99. Romaine (talk) 23:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Community comments

Tony1 comments and questions

Hi Romaine—yes, it is late. But at least it's not due to require funds until 28 Sept. You could update the name of the group, I guess.

This gets a tick from me, and if staff approve, let's hope it can be processed in time for your start.

Great that you present the previous year's measures for uploaded pics (something we see far too little of in PEG applications). 3179 to 16,000 is a huge leap. It's 13.4 euro cents per upload—pretty good; any reason for the sharp increase in your expectations?

My survey of last year's stats found that the top two or three uploaders were responsible for a surprisingly high proportion of total uploads—up to 50% in some areas; just saying. Given the sharp increase to 16,000 and the goal of emphasising both professional and hobby photographers, I wonder whether you'll be providing ways to increase the quality of uploads by the non-professionals. Will there be online guidance, tips? The statement: "the competition will lead to a influx of new contributors and more quality images. This is proven by the results in 2011-2013" is not very convincing by itself. (By the way, I wonder whether the two photography-related learning patterns would be useful for your volunteers ... do you have any comments about them? I don't think they've been translated into Fr or Du.)

The "Benefits" are vague and unconvincing. "The project will benefit the Belgian population"—well, it's meant to benefit all readers and editors of WMF projects, particularly readers and editors who speak French, Dutch, or German.

Budget looks modest and well-framed. I hope the prizes are not trivial amounts—I'd be comfortable with a bigger budget if the prizes need boosting. Are there prizes for the essential support work in providing metadata and categorisation on Commons? Who will support with those tasks?

What is the "external" funding source in the budget table? I like the collaboration with the Dutch chapter. Let's hope that the new Belgian chapter avoids duplication with the three neighbouring-language chapters (better than the three German-language chapters have done).

Tony (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Tony, The number of 16,000 is seen from the perspective on Wikipedia where we have lists of monuments we like to fill with photos, as well as the articles about the individual monuments. One of our goals (goal I) with organising Wiki Loves Monuments in Belgium and Luxembourg is to make sure that more monuments are shown on Wikipedia with a photo. The number of 16,000 is a cumulative number of the previous years and this year combined.

The difficulty with monuments is - to have a good coverage - people need to go to the specific location, not rarely having to search for it or difficult to reach, and take the photo. It is relative simple to get a photo of the popular cultural heritage, the much visited sites, but to get the less popular, less visited monuments on a photo, it is much harder. Having people on board who take many photos is as important as people taking only a few photos of a few local monuments.

In each of the past years we participated in the international Wiki Loves Monuments, we have seen many quality photos being uploaded which otherwise not have been uploaded at all. Also it let new contributors participate with uploading photos, which otherwise only would have stayed readers of Wikipedia.

Sure it benefits the readers from all over the world, but I think it is important for each country to know its cultural heritage, in this case the Belgian population, they benefit the most. Wikipedia has a social role I think by making this information better accessible for the public. The benefits include, besides a direct improvement of Wikipedia articles and collaboration with GLAM institutions, also a social interaction between Wikipedians from the various language communities. Something which is a need for a country with the society divided in language communities.

The prizes are only for participants who upload photos. At least two members from our team are active in categorisation the uploaded files on Commons.

The costs have been estimated based on talks in previous years with the partners.

What specific do you mean with "avoids duplication"? What do you think of? Examples? Romaine (talk) 11:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Romaine, good to hear of active participants in categorisation. I do take your point about the ability to gather physically in a small jursisdiction.

Given that Wikimedia sites are language-specific, Belgium primarily serves three sites that are already served by affiliates. What we need from an affiliate in Belgium is specific knowledge of the jurisdiction, of GLAM, of education institutions, etc; but the potential for duplication of activities on those language sites among the Netherlands and Belgium, and France and Belgium, will need planning and management. I'm sure you'll do it. The duplication I was referring to among the German, Australian, and Swiss chapters concerns the engagement of paid employees who are performing very similar functions for speakers of the same language as each other. But this is not relevant to the PEG application. I wish you success in this activity, if the staff decide to fund it. Tony (talk) 14:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

WMF comments

Thank you for your engagement on this grant discussion. We have a few remaining questions on the proposal, mostly around providing more detail for the measures of success and addressing some of the lessons reported in last year's WLM grant.

1. Please confirm the target number of photos for this year is 2,316.
2. Please provide more detail on what it means to "achieve the same media impact as last year". From last year's report, it sounds like the increased media attention did not necessarily result in more participants or photos. Do you have a different media strategy this year?
3. What is a "considerable number of participants" at the award session?
4. How have you addressed the Freedom of Panorama issue this year? Have you provided better guidance to contributors?
5. What has been done to make participating easier for new members this year?
6. One important lesson from last year was to have a follow-up program where images are integrated on Wikipedia articles. Can this be included this year? It is an important measure of the quality of articles and supports the end goal of having photos actually used. Whether or not you have a specific program, it is a good measure of success to include: the number of photos integrated on wiki projects 3 months after the event.

Please let us know if you have any questions about our comments. We look forward to your response and moving forward with this grant request. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Alex Wang,

1. 2300+ yes.
2. Reaching out to the media did not help much in the previous year. This year we try to get more media attention by asking our partners to make our contest known to the public.
3. The awards ceremony is a way to socialize with each other, learn about other users activities and projects in Belgium. The language communities in Belgium are often divided, and to have a better interaction it is good to have them meet each other. The event is an opportunity to meet and getting more involved with each other and also the starting Wikimedia Belgium. So I will be very happy to have at least 20 people present.
4. The Freedom of Panorama issue is a difficult issue. Even politicians like the members of the Belgian parliament of the European Parliament are not aware of the legal situation. Wiki Loves Monuments has as goal to make monuments, old buildings and historic landscapes, better visible for the public. 99.999..% of the objects in the monument lists are not eligible for copyright because of their age. The term monument is larger, but we explicitly want participants to upload photos from monuments in the list to avoid mixing up with the other monuments (which are often more modern).
5. We made sure that participants can click on the upload link in the monument lists so that they do not have to fill in the IDs by hand, something often went wrong when this was done manually.
6. We have at least two members of our team who add photos to the articles on Wikipedia. We do not have a "program", we do have pages where not used photos are added by a bot and we add them to the lists.

Romaine (talk) 22:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses Romaine. This grant request is approved. We would highly encourage you to host an edit-a-thon after the submission deadline to encourage folks to integrate their photos on wiki. However, if you do not have the capacity to do this, that is understandable. In any case, encouraging folks to do this on their own (through your social media network) would be great! Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 23:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)