Wikimedia Meta-Wiki

Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Logudorese Sardinian

< Requests for new languages
​
submitted verification final decision

Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

    This proposal is on hold:

    The language code is valid, but there is already a Wikipedia in Sardinian (sc), and the request doesn't clarify the distinction between this language and sc. If this is clarified, the request will be reconsidered. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amire80 (talk) 2024-11-07 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code src (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Logudorese Sardinian Language name in English
Language name sardu logudoresu Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q777974 - item has currently the following values: Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL src.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name Wikipèdia "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Europe/Sardinia "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

edit

Logudorese Sardinian (Sardinian: sardu logudoresu, Italian: sardo logudorese) is one of the two written standards of the Sardinian language, which is often considered one of the most, if not the most conservative of all Romance languages. The orthography is based on the spoken dialects of central northern Sardinia.

The area of Logudoro in which it is spoken, is a northern subregion of the island of Sardinia with close ties to Ozieri and Nuoro for culture and language, as well as history, with important particularities in the western area, where the most important town is Ittiri. It is an area of roughly 150 × 100 km with some 500,000–700,000 inhabitants. --Sirmio Cabinigre 20:10, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

edit
We must consider the history of Sardinia, where different peoples lived: Phoenicians, Romans, Ligurians, Catalans, Italians etc. In Sardinia there are different languages and often Sardinians living in different places do not understand each other. We must respect these language differences and create individual wikis for each language that has a code.--Sirmio Cabinigre 09:41, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(rientro) Uno studio interessante di Fiorenzo Toso (che insegna Linguistica ll'Università di Sassari) è I sardi che non parlano il sardo. La Sardegna è ricca di lingue, ognuna con proprio Vocabolario, con testi di letteratura, di canzoni, di teatro. Ma qui ho visto confusioni. A esempio:
The Wikipedia project in Sardu campidanesu - Lìngua sarda campidanesa - Lingua Campidanese (Wp/sro) [1] has already many pages and many categories, but it has a problem: the portal of translatewiki [2] contains an error, because there is the writing sro: Logudorese Sardinian, sardu logudoresu. Logudorese (src) is another language of Sardinia and has its own portal on translatewiki [3], where there is the error that refers to Campidanese; but Logudorese does not yet have a wikipedia project (Wp/src).
Campidanese is not an enabled language [4] and a request is now made to enable it.
Se non si interviene, distinguendo Campidanese da Logudorese su [translatewiki.net] non si va da nessuna parte e il progetto Wikipedia del Campidanese, che è partito e ha già 120 voci di testo, prima o poi è destinato ad arenarsi. --Sirmio Cabinigre 11:53, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd love to invite scwiki administrators @Dk1919 Franking, Elcaracol, and L2212: to answer most of concerns you asked. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:55, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Toso’s sentence and study is about the other Sardinian languages (Sassarese, Gallurese, Tabarchin and Catalan) not about Sardinian. Those are different things, even if they are often incorrectly grouped together. The Campidanese Wikipedia didn’t have a single article up until the moment @Sirmio Cabinigre, a user that doesn't know neither Sardinian nor any other Sardinian language, started creating empty or almost-empty articles by copying and pasting the same templates and phrases (for example, creating the articles about the years and the day of a year). Which of course is fine to do, if that is not the only kind of articles of a wiki. She already asked about it on our Tzilleri, and everyone there (including the users that write using the Campidanese orthography too), refused her invitation to work there instead of on sc.wiki. On sc. wiki we can already write using the LSC, Logudorese, Campidanese and Nuorese orthographies, and developed templates and rules to work with that, and there are already hundreds of articles for every one of those orthographies. I see absolutely no reason to divide Sardinian, a single language, in two or more smaller wikis (sc.wiki is unfortunately small enough), even more if no one who speaks that language is interested in working on those. L2212 (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I (but I think other people active on sc.wiki might be on the same page on this, our famous chentu concas e chentu berritas-attitute notwhitstanding!) personally would not back OP's proposal to split sc.wiki into two separate smaller projects. Not only would it be quite impractical to have two wikis running with the current base usership actively contributing on *each* of the recognized dialects of Sardinian, having them split with a view to "respect these language differences" (?) would run counter to what historical literature we have at our disposal on the language itself. Speaking of which, may I conclude by noting the lack of consensus on the move proposed by OP, and finally with a quote from Sigismondo Arquer, a Sardinian author from the mid-16th century taking a great deal of pain (quite literally, in fact) telling us that «Hinc est quod Sardi in diversis locis tam diverse loquuntur, iuxta quod tam varium habuerunt imperium, etiamsi ipsi mutuo sese recte intelligant. Sunt autem duae praecipuae in ea insula linguae, una qua utuntur in civitatibus, et altera qua extra civitates. Oppidani loquuntur fere lingua Hispanica, Tarraconensi seu Catalana, quam didicerunt ab Hispanis, qui plerumque magistratum in eisdem gerunt civitatibus: alii vero genuinam retinent Sardorum Linguam»; which, to translate this passage, would mean firstly that even though Sardinian was noted as being dialectically fragmented, courtesy of the island's (and people's alike) various masters over the time, the natives "mutually understand each other to a perfect degree", to quote him literally; and secondly, that Sardinian was considered a single language (genuinam Sardorum lingua) and in fact the "two languages" being referred to are Sardinian and Catalan, the latter being spoken in the foreign-dominated cities (Hispani, qui plerumque magistratum in eisdem gerunt civitatibus) and the former in the rest of the Kingdom.--Dk1919 Franking (talk) 21:28, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Avete creato su Wikipedia in lingua sarda oltre un centinaio di voci doppie, che terminano con /Campidanese e sono scritte in questa lingua: sono esatti doppioni di altre voci identiche, ma scritte in sardo. Queste voci che hanno /Campidanese a fine del titolo sono state collegate su Wikidata, creando pagine Wikidata doppie e che quindi non possono avere collegamento interprogetto, né collegamento controllo di autorità che va invece alla voci wikidata regolari, di analogo argomento. Stessa cosa è stata fatta per la variante linguistica sarda Logudorese, con cui sono state create voci doppione che terminano con /Logudorese e che sono collegate a voci Wikidata doppione e di cui già esisteva una voce Wikidata regolare. Anche in questo caso nessuna possibilità di avere interprogetto e controllo di autorità che vanno alla voce regolare, in particolare il collegamento a Commons, in automatico. Mi chiedo poi a chi vanno i link interni alla wiki: alla voce in sardo oppure a quella in campidanese, o a quella in logudorese? Questo modo di procedere non è regolare ed è necessario trasferire queste voci doppione nei progetti in prova, oggi al Campidanese e domani, spero, al Logudorese. In quanto alle voci degli anni e dei giorni dell'anno si tratta dell'ossatura di una Wiki che si prevede possa crescere in modo armonico. Sono utilissime perché possono contenere link a nome/cognome di personalità di ogni campo, con date e luogo di nascita/morte, voci inserite non in automatico e quindi utili a diforfanizzare voci biografiche e di località già esistenti e a crearne di nuove. Le immagini (ne inserisco in grande quantità) hanno didascalia utile ad identico scopo, perché contengono link a monumenti, a musei ecc. Da queste nuove voci biografiche, di località ecc. si può agevolmente partire per creare nuove voci, in una gamma enorme di argomenti differenti fra loro. Sono entrata nel progetto in Sassarese a metà agosto 2021, quando aveva 151 voci e non pochi problemi (voci orfane, voci non categorizzate, voci prive di link a voci analoghe in Wiki fuori da Incubator - come è espressamente richiesto - voci estremamente scempie, ecc.) Oggi ha 1.276 voci reali e una buona dose di category. Se poi desiderate conoscere che cosa viene creato in altri progetti Wikipedia attualmente in Incubator, consultate questo elenco, fatto in base al numero di bytes: [5]. Le voci da me create sono tutte ben sopra 500 bytes. Consultate l'elenco e ditemi quante ce ne sono, in Incubator, con numero minore di 500 bytes: 15.000?... 20.000? Io al numero 5.000 mi sono fermata e ero arrivata a 55 bytes. Un saluto--Sirmio Cabinigre 20:14, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The possibility to have the same article in multiple versions is a feature, not a problem. It allows us to see the differences between the orthographies and allows editors to work on them without having any issue between them. There is no issue with authority control or interlinks for the simple reason that any secondary article just needs to have a link to the main version, and someone coming from another wiki will see the main one with the template showing them the other ones. Your idea of an "harmonious growth" is not related to any actual project guideline and it also makes no sense, exactly like creating a lot of pages just to have a bigger number of articles. Creating hundreds of articles with empty paragraphs like this one or this one and expecting someone else to fill them is not "growth", and if anything I think it's even damaging to the wiki if they become a big percentage of all articles in it. You also clearly don't know enough about Sardinian, because considering it a different language compared to Campidanesu or Logudoresu is simply incorrect. Creating two, three or four Wikipedias (since apparently in your opinion we should have one for every main orthography, unless you would like to have one for every dialect and we should therefore have hundreds of wikis) would just damage the sc.wiki project and put even more stress on the already few available editors to create smaller projects with way less information, interactions and usefulness. Since nobody, no matter the orthography used, wanted to follow your idea after you asked multiple times (and you weren't the first one) have you just considered the possibility that maybe there was a good reason for it? I mean who would work on those wikis and why? I can just see them all dying like the Campidanese one was dead since 2012. L2212 (talk) 22:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Uscite dalle accademie linguistiche: la Sardegna è un unicum e la varietà dei suoi linguaggi è una ricchezza. Si potrebbe creare una costellazione di Wiki, intorno al sardo. Ogni stella, con le sue caratteristiche, potrebbe accogliere voci in varianti locali. Guardate come si è arricchita in varianti locali lij.wiki. Mi occupo anche del progetto sdc.wiki: non c'è lì una voce priva di categoria, né una voce orfana, né una voce senza uscite. In massima parte sono voci cornice, da arricchire con testi. Sarà necessario trovare altri collaboratori, lavorando sul territorio. In Incubator ci sono oltre mille progetti, già avviati, la maggior parte con un numero esiguo di voci, in grandissima parte scarne. Il numero di voci problematiche Incubator è altissimo. Lo scorso anno sono usciti da Incubator 18 progetti (ed erano molti!), quest'anno non ne è uscito ancora nessuno. Nessun problema: l'attesa per Wikipedia Logudorese-Sardinian si misurerà in molti anni... Buon proseguimento. --Sirmio Cabinigre 08:46, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with my colleagues L2212, Dk1919 Franking and the other ones who expressed the same opinion in the sc.wiki's Tzilleri page.
Nessuno di noi vive nelle accademie. Fino a prova contraria, anzi, siamo noi che conosciamo la nostra lingua. Nelle discussioni su sc.wiki ho portato dati di linguisti perché ritengo la loro opinizione più affidabile della mia, ma posso anche accennare alla mia esperienza. Personalmente, ma so che per alcuni dei colleghi è lo stesso, parlo sardo ogni giorno con parenti ed amici che vengono da varie zone della sardegna, del capo di sopra e del capo di sotto. Dirò di pìù, sono uno degli organizzatori di giornate dedicate esclusivamente alla conversazione in sardo, pensate soprattutto per chi ha poca o nessuna esperienza, per rompere il ghiaccio. In genere il primo commento che sento è "non credevo che fosse così facile capirsi a vicenda". Questo per dire che la presunta scarsa intellegibilità fra varianti, ove anche esistesse, si supera facilmente così come si riesce a capirsi fra italiani che parlano con un'inflessione regionale molto forte. Il sardo è ricco, ricchissimo, ed è unico, è vero, ma la sua situazione non è poi così diversa dal catalano/valenziano, dalle mille varianti dell'inglese o dello spagnolo, se non nel fatto che i politici sardi non s'interessano alla loro lingua come avviene in altre regioni del mondo. --PNNu (talk) 12:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree with my collegues @Dk1919 Franking, @L2212, @PNNu, no reason to split sc.wikipedia in different projects. The user who raised the question has no knowledge about the language and its dynamics (and therefore about the whole theme), despite insistence and attepts to prevail. It's true that Sardinia enclose more languages (apart from sardinian at least catalan, sassarese and gallurese) but sardinian language is one, in which different varieties just blend toghether without losing intelligibility. We are aware of the importance of this patrimony and work to promote it, rather than divide and fragment it. Best wishes. Mattafalluga (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fausta Samaritani For example, why sc.wiki users consider that you, among other supporters, have no knowledge about the language and its dynamics, despite insistence and attepts to prevail.? As explained by scwiki admins above, Sardinian is a pluricentric language, that its contents are welcome-ly combined with several dialects. Indeed, there are statements that Sassarese isn't a part of Sardinian, but why several supports on that page are pointing to Hey, we should split Sardinian? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Logudorese_Sardinian&oldid=27718671"