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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Makassar Malay

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submitted verification final decision

Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

    This proposal is on hold:

    The language code is valid, and the spoken language is probably living. If there is activity in the Incubator, it will probably be marked as eligible. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amire80 (talk) 2024-11-11 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code mfp (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Makassar Malay Language name in English
Language name Melayu Makassar Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q12952776 - item has currently the following values: Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL mfp.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name Wikipedia "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Asia/Kuala_Lumpur "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.


Proposal

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Discussion

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Support

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  • Support

I'm support this language. Because it is an language in Indonesia and you know Indonesia are the 2nd of the largest country by language in the world after Papua New Guinea and the 4th largest country by population and the biggest country from culture Semuel Tahun (talk)

@Semuel Tahun: So, please can you explain that why Makassar Malay is different enough by Makassarese, and deserves to have their own test wiki instead of merge with incubator:Wp/mak? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

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Comments/Questions

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(I boldly moved this section to the bottom) Pinging members of WMCUGM: @Chongkian, SNN95, Sabre23t, MYMMMC, and Tinlone: How do you consider those projects that about Malay dialects? Should them be independent? Or should Malay Wikipedia include them? (I'm really NOT asking relations between Indonesian and Malay). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 09:39, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From my point of view, even the Malay (ms) Wikipedia is far away from being a good Wikipedia. If you browse the content, it is very limited and the way of writing is always one-sided with lack of neutrality point of view. That one still has a tremendous rooms for improvement. And no, it is not about Indonesia or Malaysia. Malay language belongs to Brunei, Malaysia and Singapore (in which the language has official status). So sometimes when language has its official status, it shall be written more in their daily life (education, media, medium of communication), thus it will have adequate third-party sources for citing whenever we write articles in Wikipedia. Differences in dialects within Malay language does exist since ages ago, and it will always be there, same like American/Australian/British/Canadian/Singaporean English, yet they all can join in harmony within English (en) Wikipedia. So in my humble opinion, all Malay language and its respective dialects due to geographical position shall just be combined together in the Malay (ms) Wikipedia to compliment each other. Later during articles writing, if there are some differences between the dialect (e.g. different naming between Malaysia's Malay and Makassar's Malay), we can always add subsections in the article to explain the differences. I've seen some of minority-spoken languages in Wikipedia, and the content is near to zero apart from articles about their country (in which the language is used), that's all. And many of them has since remain idle (e.g. last edited was like 5-6 years ago). It's good to be more diversed in terms of languages, but we don't want to have another white elephant eventually one day. That's my two cents. Cheers ~ :) Chongkian (talk) 10:24, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I like to ping @Yosri: for this. If as Chongkian said, this Malay Makassar will be join in Malay Wikipedia, I am not sure to agree with it. The dialect is so off from the meaning (I looked up the word in example and translate them in http://prpm.dbp.gov.my) only some of them could be use as Malay Bruneian, Malaysian and Singaporean language. Yeah, we can make a subsection to explain the word in Malaysia/Brunei/Singapore Malay, but I think that belong to Wiktionary. Like English the differents are spelling and writing style only for American/Australian/British/Canadian/Singaporean English. But Malay is such a rich language since Malayo-Polynesian languages (early Malay). Indonesian from Malay root have it's own part because there are so many words that are not same/different meaning and different writing style. Liuxinyu970226, you can make one of this Makassar Malay Wiki, but I hope it is not becoming idle like many Malays root Wiki. SNN95 - Vice President of WMCUGM 10:33, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following was a small section from my research on Wikipedia in Malaysia written in 2015: Page 20, 2.6 Wikipedia Internal Reports and Discussions:...At Wikimania 2007 two year, Soekatno presented briefly the issue of “a fork in the Malay language Wikipedia” and investigated the possibility of a merger between Indonesian and Malay Wikipedia. At that point, Indonesian Wikipedia had 64,000 articles and 42,000 registered users while Malay Wikipedia had 22,000 articles and 13,000 users. Eventhough their scripts were similar, political friction made Malaysian Wikipedians strongly opposed to a merger but Indonesian Wikipedians would reluctantly agree if imposed by Wikimedia Foundation. Seven years later, there has been no merger. ...Page 99, 5.3.1 -Should Malay and Indonesian Wikipedia be combined? Although access to knowledge has been democratized with Wikipedia, its production is still elitist in terms of editor population size. Amongst this already small portion of editors, national identity and national representation possibly play a role. As such, on the matter of unifying Indonesian Wikipedia and Malay Wikipedia into one edition raised by Soekatno, the decision if ever raised again has to be understood as one that would be made by a very small group and the people impacted will be many. In the author’s opinion, such a unification may happen if Malay Wikipedia does not manage to maintain a healthy or active community as the numbers of edit and page views are not increasing much. By uniting these two editions, the language may again find itself as a lingua franca of the region and gain the participation of Malay speaking editors from smaller countries like Brunei, Singapore, and regions and contribute towards an Autronesian or Nusantara identity. The unification of traditional script and simplified Chinese Wikipedia in 2004 is a good example of such a possibility. The unification managed to resolve the differences in vocabulary by allowing users to switch between different tabs for each regional speech. Sources and documentation available from my user page. MYMMMC 6:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: I know this is message is one year old, but I just want to share my thoughts here. I speak 2 Malay "dialects" fluently, namely the Palembang Malay, and (Jakartan) Indonesian--they differ significantly in terms of lexicon, but yeah, structurally they are similar. However, Makassar Malay is more of a creole; it arose from early contact between Makassar inhabitants of South Sulawesi and Malay merchants. The structure is radically different from Standard Malay, as it includes grammatical features from Makassar language not present in other Malay dialects. Note that Standard Malay and Indonesian are not the form we use in daily life, and they are actually much closer to each other than to Makassar or Palembang dialects. If you ask me, the situation is more like that of Modern Standard Arabic vs its dialects or General American vs English creoles rather than English dialects. A merger between Indonesian and Malay Wikipedia is actually much, much more feasible than the inclusion of divergent dialects such as Kelantan-Pattani Malay or this Makassar Malay. And no, it is not comparable to Romansh Wikipedia where there is never a single standard dialect. The current standards of Malay/Indonesian are based on the Classical Malay of Malacca, which has been established since at least the 15th century. I see no reason their editions of Wikipedia would want to include these dialects. On the other hand, I understand that we don't need another unnecessary new wikis just because they happen to have ISO 639 codes. I just want to point out that merging this (and other incubator projects with "Malay" label) to Malay or Indonesian Wikipedia is not a better idea. I would actually love to support this project, but only if it has an active community. Masjawad99 (talk) 03:43, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Masjawad99 I think the question that affects eligiblity is if there are enough differents between Makassar Malay (incubator:Wp/mfp) and Makassarese (incubator:Wp/mak)? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:20, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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