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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Rajasthani

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submitted verification final decision

Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

    This proposal is on hold:

    At the moment (November 6, 2024), there are two open requests: Rajasthani Wikipedia (raj) and Hadauti (or Hadothi) Wikipedia (hoj). Accordint to ISO 639 3, raj is a macro-language code, and hoj is a part of this macro-language. The two requests don't clarify if those languages are distinct. In addition, there is little activity in the Incubators in both of them. The Language committee puts both on hold until there is activity in the Incubator and a clarification on whether this should be one standard language or several varieties. Both are possible according to the Language Proposal Policy, but a decision must be made in line with the actual usage of the language, especially in writing, and currently, the Language committee does not have enough information to make such a decision. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amire80 (talk) 2024-11-04 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code raj (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Rajasthani Language name in English
Language name राजस्थानी Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q13196 - item has currently the following values:
 Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL raj.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Continent/City "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

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I want to make it clear that Rajasthani is not a dialect, it is an independent language with its own dialects and all of its dialects are unfairly considered as dialect of Hindi to show that (Hindi) language is a strongest one

It is not on to the people who don't want to understand to say it is a dialect. Indian government never want to understand or accept the fact that a language with its own 2500 year old literature is a dialect of newly born 100 year old Hindi, it is a kind of joke Indian system is making.

They are also giving excuses about not having its own script. As everyone aware languages like Marathi, Maithili and many other gave up their own script to adopt Devanagari which same thing Rajasthani did as well.

To be fair if you look in census of 1941, you will see that a dialect spoken in Kashmir called "Gujari" was considered as a dialect of Rajasthani and later under Indian govt control it was treated as Hindi and then further later as an urdu.

Just few years ago Konkani was considered as a dialect of Marathi and now it is an independent language

Please accept views of independent international linguistics who clearly believe that Rajasthani is one of the strongest, largest and purest of of language. Indian system and india's government funded linguistics will make decision in favour of Indian government to make Hindi language strong by killing languages like Rajasthani. 50 - 80 million (2001) population in rajasthan speaks this language. Experts feel that the more dialects a language has, the richer it is. If this true, Rajasthani is richer than all the languages mentioned above as it has 73 dialects! Yet it has not been included in the eighth schedule of the constitution. It has many dictionaries and grammar books and has more than three lakh words. Hence it is definitely a full-fledged language.

So please to aware and to climb the stairs of giving rajasthani language a official status please introduce a rajasthani language wikipedia.

It is unfair with people of Rajasthan whose language and culture is been targeted by its own government to vanish it from Earth Rajashthani Standard is the common lingua franca of Rajashthani people. It is spoken by 18 million people (2001).[9] Some of the Rajasthani speakers conflates with Hindi speakers in the census. If including the major dialects such as Dhundhari, Harauti, Mewati, Ahirwati, Jaipuri and other speakers included in the Hindi in census, the total estimated speakers of Rajasthani language will be around 30 - 35 million people. Most of the Rajasthani dialects are chiefly spoken in the state of Rajasthan but are also spoken in Gujarat, Haryana and Punjab. Rajasthani is spoken in the Bahawalpur and Multan sectors of the Pakistani provinces of Punjab and Tharparkar district of Sindh. It merges with Riasti and Saraiki in Bahawalpur and Multan areas, respectively. It comes in contact with Sindhi from Dera Rahim Yar Khan through Sukkur and Ummerkot. Many linguists (particularly Gusain, 2000b and Shackle, 1976) agree that it shares many phonological (implosives), morphological (future tense marker and negation) and syntactic features with Riasti and Saraiki. However, further inquiry is needed. A distribution of the geographical area can be found in 'Linguistic Survey of India' by George A. Grierson. In the past, the language spoken in Rajasthan was regarded as a dialect of western Hindi (Kellogg, 1873). George Abraham Grierson (1908) was the first scholar who gave the designation 'Rajasthani' to the language, which was earlier known through its dialects. Today, however, Sahitya Akademi, National Academy of Letters and University Grants Commission recognise it as a distinct language. It is taught as such in the Universities of Jodhpur and Udaipur. The Board of Secondary Education, Rajasthan included Rajasthani in the course of studies and it has been an optional subject since 1973. Since 1947, several movements[which?] have been campaigning in Rajasthan for its recognition, but it is still considered a 'dialect' of Hindi.[by whom?] Recently,[when?] the Rajasthan Government has recognised it as a state language, but there is still a long way for the language to go towards national status.[original research?] It still lacks a comprehensive reference grammar and contemporary dictionary based on a thorough linguistic survey of Rajasthan.[citation needed] Currently an extensive descriptive grammar of Rajasthani is being recorded. --— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vedpriyaa (talk) 07:24, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

--Please Approval this wiki .there is many contributors in this language . I want to create this wiki and I fully support in making this wiki very high level.(VSR07 (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2017 (UTC))[reply]

Discussion

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To the best of my knowledge, Rajasthani is also a macrolanguage, which includes Bagri (bgq), Gade Lohar (gda), Gujari (gju, which also has a test project), Hadothi (hoj), Malvi (mup) and Wagdi (wbr). So maybe consider moving your effects of request to one of those except gju? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:24, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Vedpriyaa and HindWIKI: ^^ --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need some further information here, and then I need to discuss with LangCom. There is a decent amount of content in the test here, and there has been at least some sporadic contributions to it over time. The Gujari "test" is just two pages. Question is whether the content here is in "Standard Rajasthani", and whether that is the best way to go here. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Satdeep Gill: What's your consideration here? I think if you don't leave a comment here, then every other members of langcom can reject this one. --223.104.7.104 23:00, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Probably in this situation, the Wp/raj project pages should consider moving to another member language code. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liuxinyu970226 I realize this is a complex problem. I think given that Rajasthani is a recognized language in Rajasthan state of India, we should mark that as eligible. Also, Gujari seems to be written primarily in the Perso-Arabic script and was recognized in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, which is not directly adjacent to Rajasthan. So it seems to have differed dramatically from Rajasthani in many ways while historically might be more connected. So, we should mark Gujari eligible as well. - Satdeep Gill (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Satdeep Gill My position on this matter would be like the so-called "Lahnda (lah)", to which several non-communicatable regional languages are grouped under one macrolanguage umbrella. Do you really have materials to indicate the "standard" Rajasthani? If not, then I'm afraid that Wp/raj should consider renaming to one of Wp/bgq, Wp/gda, Wp/mup and/or Wp/wbr. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:55, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I did not write the initial proposal but I can see that it has been stalled for quite some time. I would like to chime in to provide some clarity for some of the problem points so far. It would be great if the language committee, @Liuxinyu970226 and @Satdeep Gill, can review this information and decide on marking Rajasthani as eligible for it's own Wiki page.
On taking a position similar to Lahnda (lah): First, I would like to clarify that the languages are not non-communicable at all. There is a very high degree of mutual intelligibility and lexical, semantic, and grammatical commonalities among the Lahnda/Western Punjabi languages, and even with Standard Punjabi. I would caution Wiki language committee from comparing Rajasthani to Lahnda because unlike Lahnda, Rajasthani has a significant amount of written material present in the modern world, and gets government support for standardization.

On renaming Raj to one or the other language variety: Second, I would like to address this point which is considering renaming the overall Rajasthani wikipedia project into a smaller variety's name like Malvai or Bagri. This would be unnecessary and not appropriate as the scope of the Wikipedia project would (i) be too small, (ii) not have enough contributors as writers from the broader Rajasthan area will likely want to write in more standard Rajasthani, and (iii) these smaller languages do not have enough written material to indicate their standardization.

On having materials to indicate Standard Rajasthani: Yes, there are absolutely materials to indicate standard Rajasthani. The state of written language standardization can be gauged by looking at modern books, study materials, and textbooks being produced within the state - by both government and by regular people. The first will indicate the standard language that has the backing of the state, and the latter will indicate that there are regular people who will also contribute in Standard Rajasthani to Wikipedia.

  • Aapno Rajasthan is a small encyclopedic project that has information not only about standard Rajasthani but about important people/personalities, literature, geography, politics etc. This is one fairly substantial sample of standard Rajasthani that is non-governmental.
  • Learn Rajasthani is a small website that aims to explain the grammatical standardizations in Rajasthani and teach it to younger kids. It contains information about the language's evolution, standardization, literature, governmental support etc. The entire page is in Standard Rajasthani.
  • Rajasthani Sabadkos This website is the web-interface version of the the biggest dictionary ever written for Standard Rajasthani by Mr. Sitaram Lalas. It makes the dictionary accessible by search, and additionally contains a web-accessible version of the Rajasthani grammar written by Mr. Lalas. The entire website and all its texts are in Standard Rajasthani. Since it is a very detailed grammar, it also contains some footnotes about nuances of the sublanguages like Malvai and Bagri, and how they differ in speech.
  • Padhesari: This website is meant for students and contains information about the Rajasthani language and literature exams for Class 11, 12, undergraduate (BA), masters (MA), researchers (PhD students), national NET exam (for aspiring teachers/professors). You can see that the blog suggests popular standard Rajasthani books and materials to prepare for these exams. The books cover standard grammar, poetry, literature, etc.
  • An example grammar book linked through Padhesari. On the first page, you can see that it is published by the Rajasthani State Textbook Publishers in Jaipur, and is written by the Secondary Education Board, Ajmer, for free circulation among State Universities. It is a standard Rajasthani grammar textbook for grades 11 and 12. It is written in Standard Rajasthani.
  • Rajasthani Sahitya Sujas This book is hosted by Rajasthani Education Board on the official state government website (gov.in) and is the 2017-18 version of Part 1 of the Literature (prose-poetry) collection and syllabus for high-school students. It is a 200 page sample of Standard Rajasthani.
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I hope these materials help make a decision in favor of granting Rajasthani (raj) its independent Wikipedia page where residents of the state and other Rajasthani language speakers can contribute in Standard Rajasthani.
If there are any other specific requirements that would help make a clear positive decision, please feel free to post them here, and I am happy to answer them. 100.36.245.101 15:12, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming above comment: I wrote this comment from IP 100.36.245.101 (I didn't realize I was using a different browser and that I was logged out). Milind Agarwal 01 (talk) 02:25, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, I agree with @Satdeep Gill and the comment/quote from the Gujari native speaker. Gujari has state support (Jammu and Kashmir) as a separate standardized variety. It also tends to use a different script (Perso-Arabic) and school textbooks and general written material tends to be standardized differently from Standard Rajasthani. So, yes, while they are related languages, since they have already been standardized differently, the fairest solution is to (i) grant the 'raj' code for Standard Rajasthani wikipedia, and (ii) if the Gujari wikipedia proposal independently passes all the tests and standards set by Wikipedia, they are welcome to have their separate page and contributors. 100.36.245.101 15:23, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And how about Hadothi, where it also has a separate test project incubator:Wp/hoj and nowadays, its associated RFL? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:44, 3 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Thanks for sharing the test project and discussion page links for Hadauti. The proposal seems to indicate that the main goal is to have a "dedicated Wikimedia page" to provide comprehensive information on the language, it's vocabulary, literature, and grammar. They also seem to want to provide information to learn the language and to document its history. There seems to be a 'secondary' goal of improving existing articles and translating them into languages other than Hadauti. I have several comments on this, keeping in line with the strict standards of Wikipedia approvals:

Scope of proposal It seems like the scope is mainly to document information about a language. Having a whole language-based Wikipedia is not meant just to have information on that language, but ideally there should be evidence that the language can be used to discuss and explain topics other than the language itself like current events, politics, geography, science etc. At this stage, I believe it is probably better for the proposal writers to work on the page about the Hadauti language (on the English/Hindi-language Wikipedias) and include lots of examples in Hadauti language and information about its grammar, literature etc. And in the future, they are also welcome to have a page on the Hadauti variety on the standard Rajasthani (raj) Wikipedia.

Standardization In my understanding of Rajasthani, I don't think there is a lot of documentation and written texts in the Hadauti variety. Of course, it exists as a spoken variety/lect, and this doesn't mean that if the speakers wanted a separate linguistic identity, they couldn't -- but the first step is standardization and widespread usage in real life (not Wikipedia), like the Gurjari/Gojri community did over decades. If the proposal writers can provide ample evidence of standardization, consistency in writing, and a robust community of native/fluent speakers who can contribute or be readers, then they would probably have a stronger case for their own Wikipedia. I don't think this evidence exits but it is up to native speakers to provide it. So far, in real life, standard Rajasthani seems to be way more popular, and has 10x speakers, radio shows, novels, textbooks, government support, mass appeal etc.

Recommendations
So, overall, I would recommend that:
(i) we move this Standard Rajasthani proposal forward under the 'raj' code
(ii) don't let the status of proposals for Hadauti/Gujari block or stall this proposal
(iii) let the other proposals stand on their own merit. My opinion is that Gujari speakers have a stronger case for their standardized variety/lect, but even there, they need to maintain the test project, and pass all the other Wikipedia requirements independently.

Let me know if you have any further questions. I'm happy to answer and provide more insights. Glad to see that someone read what I wrote haha! 100.36.245.101 04:02, 4 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Dear this IP guy, I'm not sure if you're just @Milind Agarwal 01: or not (due to very shortly time period differences between your posts and on Incubator's Admin noticeboard), if yes, please login your account and claim your both posts as the logged-in you, "intend" anonymous edits despite having a registered account is most likely considered bad behaviors and likely impose unwanted Checkuser motions. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:43, 5 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming above comment: I wrote the comment above from IP 100.36.245.101 (I didn't realize I was using a different browser and that I was logged out).
@Liuxinyu970226 Good eye! I didn't even realize I was logged out in Safari. Future edits/contributons will only be when I'm logged-in. Thanks! I added a claiming reply to all 3 comments. All my contributions to the test project and questions/comments on translatewiki's support etc. were while I was logged in. Milind Agarwal 01 (talk) 02:27, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming above comment: I wrote this comment from IP 100.36.245.101 (I didn't realize I was using a different browser and that I was logged out). Milind Agarwal 01 (talk) 02:25, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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