Talk:Swánga̱lyiatwuki-WikiWoordenboek Joint Pilot Wiktionary Editing

Ways to participate

Adding large numbers of simple entries in WikiWoordenboek can easily be done by a bot. For example, I used Snorrebot to add 49 items of the list last night. The category "Tyap Words" on WikiWoordenboek now has 59 entries.

My impression is that using bots this way could make participation in this project a lot easier. We could work by compiling a list, similar to the present one. Manual editing of pages on WikiWoordenboek would only be required for more complex cases, like multiple meanings or to correct errors. The same list could be used to add the Tyap translations on WikiWoordenboek pages describing Dutch words. This cannot be done by a bot, because we need to put the translations in alphabetic order of the language names. But it can help an editor to do it faster, I will give it a try in the coming days.

This approach would result in a change in the ways to participate.

1. Participants would be asked to help compiling a list of Tyap-Dutch synonyms.

2. A bot will add the Tyap words to WikiWoordenboek and will help an experienced editor to add them as translations to the corresponding Dutch words. If necessary, a missing Dutch word could be added, but I expect that nearly all words Dutch words in this project will already have a page in WikiWoordenboek.

3. My impression is that some Tyap words in this project need to be added to Swánga̱lyiatwuki: this is a very important contribution that only can be made by the Tyap-speaking participants.

4. I guess it would be possible to use bots to add Dutch words to Swánga̱lyiatwuki too, but I don't know whether this is acceptable to the Swánga̱lyiatwuki community. It would require some discussions and agreements to work properly.

5. When we use bots in the proper way, we will need to answer lots of questions during the compilation of the list. Answering these questions would be an important part of this project. The questions I have while reading the present list, I will put below under separate headings to keep the discussion clear.

My main question would be whether using bots as suggested and focusing the co-operation on the list would be a good approach. --MarcoSwart (talk) 09:43, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This looks quite interesting @MarcoSwart. Yeah, the use of bots in the Swánga̱lyiatwuki will be a welcome development. If we can have most of the editing work done by bots, that would save quite a lot of stress and time. The only challenge we have would be the technical aspect of the bot usage. But even if this is the only achievement for us as a community after this collaborative work, that is a plus. It will only mean that the Swánga̱lyiatwuki community would benefit more. Lol. Kambai Akau (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Words to be selected for this project

There exist several lists of most common or useful Dutch words. I am trying to compile a subset that would be useful for this project. Among the most used words are typically not just nouns and verbs, but also some adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, particles, pronouns, numerals, conjunctions, and interjections. These words may very well be translated in Tyap by a word from a different type or by a grammatical construction. Adding these words would make this project a lot more valuable for users: without these words they will have a hard time understanding Dutch. On the other hand, they are clearly a more complicated part of a project like this. I don't know anything about the parts of speech distinguished in Tyap.

My proposal would be to start with the most common nouns, verbs and numerals. By the time we achieve the goal of 1,000 words, we should take some time to look at the very common words of other types in Dutch. MarcoSwart (talk) 10:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This sounds good. The project could also be an avenue for language learning, too. Within the timeframe, we should be able to achieve the goal of 1,000 words, including common words of Standard Dutch and Dutch varieties with their equivalents made available in Tyap by participants. Kambai Akau (talk) 18:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Data on Dutch words

For any Dutch word, WikiWoordenboek can easily provide

1. a sound file for the pronunciation

2. a standardized rendering in IPA of the pronunciation

3. the syllabification.

For many words we could easily add

4. one or more Categories

5. a link to Dutch Wikipedia (if an article on the subject exists)

6. information on the prevalence of words (how well-known a word is)

My suggestion would be to add at least 1. and 2. to the description on Swánga̱lyiatwuki and apply at most one category to a word (4.). This could be a category name in English that has translations into both Tyap and Dutch. Of course, it is possible to add more categories (and pronunciation variants) later on. I can imagine we leave 3., 5. and 6. for future projects. MarcoSwart (talk) 10:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

It's a welcome suggestion. 1. and 2. are doable on Swánga̱lyiatwuki! The other three could be left for future projects. Kambai Akau (talk) 00:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Data on Tyap words

It would be valuable to have pronunciation data on Tyap words, both as a sound file and IPA rendition. The first one is handled by a template on WikiWoordenboek, if a sound file of the type "kcg-<WORD>.ogg" is added to Commons. This could be done separately, outside of this project. I don't know whether it is doable to add the IPA-rendition of words as part of this project. I have the same question regarding links to the Tyap Wikipedia. MarcoSwart (talk) 10:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

There is still a number of things to do in the Swánga̱lyiatwuki. The aspect of the sound file being linked by a template is doable in this project! The template will be imported to the Swánga̱lyiatwuki from a source to make it happen as the project progresses. The IPA (Za̱FBS) renditions and sound are quite vital. We'll need to make recordings and upload them against Tyap entries as we progress.

For the link to Wikipedia, the template Template:Pedia serves in that regard, but if it needs to be worked on so it becomes easier to work with WikiWoordenboek, it's doable. Kambai Akau (talk) 01:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Data on Tyap nouns

If I understand correctly, Tyap nouns are divided over several numbered Classes that determine singular/plural forms and a corresponding determiner put after the word. This would be useful information to add to WikiWoordenboek.

Adding Etymology sections is in general probably too much work for this project. However, if words are clearly compounded from other Tyap words, would it be doable to indicate this already? MarcoSwart (talk) 11:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right about the Tyap nouns! There are six definite articles (wu, ka, hu, ji, na, and ba) in Tyap placed in front of the nouns or after the pronoun or adjective following the noun. The noun class type (a̱-, a̱ka̱-, a̱yaa-, n-, m-) and even the particular letter a Tyap word begins with, and sometimes the function of the word (languages usually use 'ji' and uncountable nouns often use 'na') often determine what determiner type gets used for a noun.

For etymology, this isn't so necessary for the project if one may find it a bit difficult to do. This could be skipped for this project. Kambai Akau (talk) 01:26, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Data on Dutch nouns

WikiWoordenboek can provide the singular and plural forms and/or the information whether a noun only has one of these.

Dutch is gendered language. I would suggest that Swánga̱lyiatwuki shows the difference between neuter nouns with the article "het" on the one hand and male or female nouns with "de" on the other hand, because it is grammatically important. The distinction between male and female is complicated because of changes over time and by region and is probably not that relevant for this project.

The diminutive form of nouns is used a lot, especially in colloquial Dutch. WikiWoordenboek could provide these forms and/or the information whether a noun only exist as a diminutive. It might be an option to add a project page with some information on the way diminutives are used in Dutch, and have diminutive nouns simply link to the word they are derived from and this page.

For nouns that are compounds, we could add an Etymology section showing (links to) the words compounded. MarcoSwart (talk) 11:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

These differences in gender are truly important. We'll mimick your edits of Dutch words in the Swánga̱lyiatwuki and ensure the proper distinction of male, female, and neuter nouns as we progress. Kambai Akau (talk) 00:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

🏁 Dutch: language, countries and people

Dutch as a language is an official language in three states: The Kingdom of the Netherlands, Belgium and Surinam. The Kingdom of the Netherlands consists of 4 countries: the Netherlands (mainly in Europe), Curaçao, Aruba and Saint Maarten (in the Caribbean). To make things really complicated, three Caribbean islands (Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius) chose to remain part of the Netherlands (mainly in Europe). In English "Dutch" refers to the language (of all the states mentioned) and to the Netherlands as a country in Europe and its inhabitants. For this reason, there is a difference between "the Dutch" and "Dutch-speaking people". It would be useful to have translations in Tyap for:

1. Dutch (the language) - Nederlands - Dot
2. the Netherlands - Nederland - Nedalan
3. Dutchman (citizen of the Netherlands) - Nederlander - ?
4. Belgium - België - ?
5. Belgian (citizen of the Belgium) - Belg - ?
6. Surinam - Suriname - ?
7. Surinamer - Surinamer - ?
8. "Dutch speaking person" - Nederlandssprekende - ?

MarcoSwart (talk) 11:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Awesome 😊! Let me make the translations to these terminologies:

1. Dutch (the language) - Nederlands - Dot
2. The Netherlands - Nederland - Nedalan
3. Dutchman/woman - Nederlander - A̱tyudot (plural: A̱dot)
4. Belgium - België - Ba̱li̱jiyom
5. Belgian - Belg - A̱tyuba̱li̱jiyom
6. Surinam - Suriname - Suri̱nam
7. Surinamer - Surinamer - A̱tyusuri̱nam
8. Dutch speaking person - Nederlandssprekende - A̱tyulyiatdot

Kambai Akau (talk) 02:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I broke the table further to separate the 'Body parts' section from the 'People, language and state' part, while maintaining the initial numbering from 6 downwards. Edits could still be done on both tables to accommodate more important words. Kambai Akau (talk) 02:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem. I have added all words to WikiWoordenboek. MarcoSwart (talk) 22:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, super! Thanks. Kambai Akau (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Spelling of apparent compounds

In the list, some apparent compounds are spelled with a space between the parts, some with a hyphen and some joined together. There is also a group that is spelled with a hyphen, while linking to a word spelled with a space on Swánga̱lyiatwuki. What is the proper orthography? MarcoSwart (talk) 12:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

The current orthography does not clearly outline a specific pattern to use. This had been a source of worry to me as well. In the existing latest 'official' publication for the language, which is the Tyap New Testament, compound words are not hyphenated. But in the unpublished Tyap dictionary awaiting further editing and publication, they are hyphenated and some other compound words cojoined to form one word. Perhaps we may have to take a stance to use one form only in the Swánga̱lyiatwuki, which may be the hyphenation or cojoining of compound words. Kambai Akau (talk) 02:07, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be relevant to know whether the two separate words are treated different from a compound in syntax (other than a difference in the meaning): if so, it is useful that the spelling reflects this by using a hyphen or cojoining. This matter should be looked at by a linguist with thorough knowledge of Tyap.

When in doubt, the safest bet may be to use a hyphen: this way, the reader gets some information that may be helpful. It's always possible to inform the reader in the future that the hyphens may/should be left out or replaced by a space according to rules of orthography. MarcoSwart (talk) 12:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Surely! An American linguist couple by name Carl and Joy Follingstad actually did work on this part of the orthography in the book, "Learn to Read and Write Tyap" in the early 1990s, alongside Dimos Haruna, an Atyap linguist. The Follingstads speak Tyap well, and introduced the hyphen for compound words in Appendix 1 (page 67) of the book. This confirms their work was awesomely done. I don't know why the Tyap New Testament did away with the hyphen. But the Swánga̱lyiatwuki would use the hyphen to make it easier for comprehension. Except in other cases where another word breaks in-between the compound word. Kambai Akau (talk) 01:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

🏁 Some hairy questions

• 7 hair: The similarity with a̱pyia̱ makes me wonder whether pyia̱ refers to hair on top of the head only. In that case, it would be interesting to know whether there is another word for hairs on other parts of the body of on animals. And I could add a more precise translation in Dutch ("hoofdhaar").
• 16 : Would a̱tanu considered to be a kind of pyia̱, or would that sound strange in Tyap?

English and Dutch use hair to mean both a single fiber and a collection of those growing together. Only the first meaning has a plural form. MarcoSwart (talk) 12:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Lol. You're right.

7 hair: pyia̱ refers only to the hair on top of the head. For other hairs in the other parts, the word used is cat (spelling may sooner or later be adjusted to chat).

16: Yep. A̱tanu is the word for 'beard'. Same word is also used for 'chin'. The word for 'moustache' is zwum-a̱nu. The word for 'gray hair' is khaan. These are the words for 'hair' on the human body in Tyap (pyia̱, cat, a̱tanu, zwum-a̱nu, khaan). For animals, cat is used for 'animal hair' and 'feather', while zwum-a̱nu is used for 'whisker'. Kambai Akau (talk) 01:55, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I tried to put all the information you presented on WikiWoordenboek. MarcoSwart (talk) 14:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, great! 😊 Kambai Akau (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also added a finish flag emoji to the title, signifying this matter is resolved. This will help us to see which matters are still requiring attention. MarcoSwart (talk) 15:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Sounds great! Kambai Akau (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

🏁 Chest

My impression is that 23. chest is referring to the bodypart. In that case the proper translation in Dutch is "borstkas". "Kist" is "chest" in the sense of "box". MarcoSwart (talk) 12:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, wow. Sure! 23 was meant to be a body part. Thanks for the correction! Kambai Akau (talk) 01:42, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

🏁 Mucus/catarrh

At 70. I made a split between "mucus" and "catarrh". The first is a substance that can be the result of the second, a medical condition. Do I understand correctly that a̱nfwuong has both meangings? MarcoSwart (talk) 12:22, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Super! Yeah. In Tyap, both the medical condition and the resultant have the same word, 'a̱nfwuong'. Kambai Akau (talk) 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

🏁 37. Tail

On Swánga̱lyiatwuki, li̱m shows the information of kungkup. Is this a mistake? MarcoSwart (talk) 13:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah, I noticed a partial correction. MarcoSwart (talk) 13:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah. I removed the audio and worked on the entry. Another audio would be substituted to replace the one removed. It must have been an initial error. Kambai Akau (talk) 01:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

baan

I am confused about baan in Tyap: does it mean latch, lathe, bend, something different or does it have several meanings? MarcoSwart (talk) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

The editor actually confused the 'latch' for the 'lathe' in the selection of imagery. The entry was created in a Wiki outreach in 2023 where the new editors were directed to copy existing entries to create new entries. This editor did not translate the copied entry and left it that way which is quite unfortunate. I just reedited the entry. 'Baan' could mean: 1. a latch, 2. a runner stone (of a millstone). Kambai Akau (talk) 01:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

a̱lakumi

I just realized that Dutch "kameel" usually refers to an animal with two humps. The kind with one hump is called a "dromedaris". I suppose Tyap (like English) uses the same word to refer to both. I have added "dromedaris" to Swánga̱lyiatwuki, also as my first try to add a word. I also put in a link to Wikispecies. That's what we do on WikiWoordenboek when the word for an animal corresponds with a name in the official biological nomenclature. MarcoSwart (talk) 10:37, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sound files

At the moment, Swánga̱lyiatwuki uses thumbnails to present soundfiles. Especially on computer screens this is rather confusing, because it shows up on the far right side of the screen, a long way from "Anwuat:". I know of 2 ways to improve this:

1. use "Media" instead of "Fail" (see: dromedaris on Swánga̱lyiatwuki)

   This solution is a remnant from the time many browsers needed an extension to play sound files. For this reason you will end up a new page and have to go back one page to return to the word. The advantage is a very clean page layout.

2. just leave out "thumb" (see: kameel on Swánga̱lyiatwuki)

   Nowadays this will show the player directly after "Anwuat:". It looks a little bulky, but it is probably the easiest solution, both for readers and editors.

Before I start adding more pages with Dutch words, it would be helpful to know what is the preference of the Swánga̱lyiatwuki community: 1., 2. or the present method. MarcoSwart (talk) 10:57, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Articles of Dutch nouns

Dutch has 3 commonly used articles before nouns:

1. "een" (indefinite, singular forms)
2. "de" (definite, all plural and most singular forms)
3. "het" (definite, some singular forms)

When describing a noun, it would be useful to show whether the article of the singular form is "de" or "het". I see two ways to do this on Swánga̱lyiatwuki.

1. As articles are used before the noun, on WikiWoordenboek we put them in italics before the bold word used as a heading on the page. I did the same on wikt:kcg:dromedaris on Swánga̱lyiatwuki.
2. As articles resembles words like "wu" or "ba", we could present them in a similar way, I did so on wikt:kcg:kameel on Swánga̱lyiatwuki. Of course <Article> should be changed in the correct wording in Tyap. The advantage is the resemblance with Tyap lemmas.
3. A third possibility is identical with 2., but without the "(á̱kpa de')" part, because this is true for all plural forms anyway.

Before I start adding more Dutch nouns, it would be helpful to know what is the preference of the Swánga̱lyiatwuki community, 1., 2., 3. or maybe there is even a better way.

Any solution will be probably work just for Dutch nouns. In languages like German or French, nouns have different forms (cases) that are reflected in the form of the article. For those languages, the usual solution is to just show the gender of the word. But for Dutch nouns, one of the solutions above is more practical. Yes, Dutch has (the remnants of) a gender system too, but nowadays even the Dutch often need a dictionary if they want to use it correctly. So anyone who needs that information will probably know Dutch well enough to consult WikiWoordenboek. MarcoSwart (talk) 11:43, 12 January 2025 (UTC)