Talk:Wikivoyage/Logo 2013/Finalist review

Problem

So what is the problem with File:WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw.svg? Should we not know? Why is this being withheld from the community? · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 06:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not - it's on his talk page and linked from both this one and the talk page of Wikivoyage/Logo 2013. Why jump straight to assuming that something is being kept secret? :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:16, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Probably because when I requested explanations/clarification of what the problems were with the old logo I got evasive answers, and this is a matter that is of direct an obvious importance to everyone concerned. If there is a problem, no matter how apparently small, if it is big enough to mention it is big enough that we all need to know what it is so we can decide for ourselves whether it is important to us. The WMF projects make a big deal of openness and transparency, so why not actually be open and transparent? · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 16:06, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow you - the problem is explained here on Meta and linked. :/ That's pretty open and transparent. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect to Peter S., we don't get to decide whether legal concerns are important to us. The WMF has a legal department to make those decisions. If that's a problem, it should be discussed elsewhere, not here, although I don't really expect such a discussion to be all that productive. --Peter ^Talk 18:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

If there is a problem, I think the problem should be stated openly. Not just that there is a problem, but what the problem is. That way we can see that it is insurmountable, or if it isn't, someone may have a solution that was not obvious to those who identified the problem. If we don't know what the problem is, there is no possibility of a solution. Simply assuming that no-one else could possibly find an alternative does not suggest a great deal of respect for the intelligence and ingenuity of the involved parties. · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 20:56, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I am also curious of which nature this legal issue is but I also understand if it is kept secret to avoid legal disadvantages or implications. -- Rillke (talk) 05:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If there is a legal issue that should be kept secret, must it also be kept secret that it is a secret? This is not the NSA we are dealing with here. A statement that the details should not be released for whatever legal reason applies would generally be the preferred option. · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 06:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If there is a legal issue it's time to change the law :-P --Amga (talk) 10:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't have the details, I'm afraid. As I mentioned, the legal team was working from Hong Kong, and they were not easily accessible to me last week (nor are they now, since most of them are traveling). AleXXw may actually have more information on the problem with his logo than I have, as he was in Hong Kong, too, and met them in person, but I don't know if it's a good idea for him to discuss it, if so. I can easily imagine legal disadvantages to announcing specifics. ("Our new logo is almost like yours, but we think those changes are enough. Oh, you disagree? And you're using our statement as evidence of foreknowledge of infringement? Oops." :D) That said, with respect to AleXXw's logo, the problem is obviously not insurmountable. :) The solution has already been identified and communicated.

As far as changing the law, Amga, if only. :) If we could do that, we wouldn't need a new logo to begin with. :/ Trademark law is complex, and the legal team is doing its best to ensure that we don't wind up in this situation again...and that they do not needlessly risk movement resources. This is why they wound up hiring outside counsel that specializes in trademark law to assist with this evaluation. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 11:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Removing disallowed icons

The original version of #WV-Logo Proposal AleXXw is still prominently displayed on the voting page, despite not being allowed per legal. I think we should remove it, lest voters mistakenly cast a vote, thinking it applies to the original, rather than the new submission. --Peter ^Talk 18:34, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Time urgent question on closure of review

Hi, guys.

User:Peterfitzgerald raised the point that in future logo selection procedures, we should allow more time for the finalist review. I agree. In this case, we don't have a lot of wriggle room due to the externally imposed deadline, but I talked to the legal department yesterday and - since the modifications are all so similar to the original designs - they have agreed to compress their legal review by a couple of days if they would help here. I imagine that it would be uncontroversial for the community for me to extend the closure of this for Monday the 19th instead of closing it today. The question is, would this be useful? If I do, I'm happy to notify the various Wikivoyage communities of the extension and, at the same time, remind them to support their choices. As this is a timely matter, I'd really appreciate feedback. :) There may be good reasons not to do the extension that might be more obvious to y'all then to me. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 12:46, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

It's quiet here on Meta ;) I vote yes, let's extend this through the weekend, and notify Wikivoyage communities (I've already alerted en to the voting). --Peter ^Talk 19:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Quiet? That's implied consent ;-) -- Rillke (talk) 20:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. :D I'll start notifying them. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 23:34, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Tallies

• Flying Plane variants
  • Original; automatic inclusion
  • Transparency flying plane and favicon wo wordmark II; 10 supports (23:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • No wordmark, contrailed favicon; 4 supports (23:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
• Fantasy balloon variants
  • Original; automatic inclusion
  • Basket, pitch, font; 0 supports (15:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • DejaVu sans; 6 supports (15:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • Lenka Stabilo; 17 supports (15:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • Linear Regular; 1 supports (23:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • Lenka Stabilo in blue; 8 supports (23:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
• AleXXw variants
  • Original; excluded for legal issues.
  • Arrow outline; 2 supports (15:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • New variant 1: Triangles; 0 supports (15:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • New variant 2: Deltoid; 0 supports (15:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • New variant 3: Rounded Triangles; 0 supports (15:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • New Variant: Arc instead of concave angle, shades of blue; 10 supports (23:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • New Variant 4: concave rounded triangles; 24 supports (23:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC))
  • Concave rounded triangles: turquoise, green, blue; 7 supports (23:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC))

• Why don't combine them all; 5 supports (15:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC))

• Also four in opposition. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 23:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

My tallies are as above. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 23:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

---

As an uninvolved administrator, I'm happy to confirm that the above tallies are correct. Therefore, following my interpretation of the rules set out by the Foundation, I believe the following logos make it through to the final vote:

• Flying Plane variants
  • Original, Transparency flying plane and favicon wo wordmark II and No wordmark, contrailed favicon.

• Fantasy balloon variants
  • Original, Lenka Stabilo and Lenka Stabilo in blue.

• AleXXw variants
  • New Variant 4: concave rounded triangles, New Variant: Arc instead of concave angle, shades of blue and Concave rounded triangles: turquoise, green, blue.

Why don't combine them all does not make it through to the final vote as in accordance with the rules as it was not one of the original vote winners but is instead a mix of all 3. To be eligible to make it through it would have needed to have been proposed in the initial round of logo submissions. Thehelpfulone 23:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Problem with balloon variants

I hate to be the bearer of bad news. :(

The legal team is still in the process of reviewing the logos for the final vote. But they wanted to flag at this point that we will need to disqualify the two variations of the fantasy ballon. The new shape of the basket makes the design less distinguishable for trademark registration purposes. Likewise, we need to avoid the color blue on this design. They say that you can, if you want, include a logo that has the original design of the balloon with Lenka Stabilo font for the final vote.

I'm really sorry, guys. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 23:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

No worries, I'm not sure my variants are my favorite anyway--I really like Globe-trotter's airplane logo ;) I'll submit the variant that you suggest. Would there be time for Legal to review the version with a suitcase? That was fairly popular, presumably distinct enough for trademark registration, and it would be nice to have three balloon options for the final vote. --Peter ^Talk 03:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, where should I put the new variant submission (original, plus slight tweaks & Lenka)? --Peter ^Talk 03:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

What's the issue with the cyan color scheme? -- Rillke (talk) 07:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

It makes it more similar to an existing logo. I can put Peter it touch with the legal team if he wants specific info, but can say that "blue balloon with basket" is taken. :) Can you put it here, Peter? Rillke is making all the magic stuff happen, so as long as he knows about it I'm sure he can put it in the final.

The good news is that legal finished early, and everything else is okay, so there should be no more modifications from their end. We could give the vote some extra hours if we want to.

I'm now working on the best way to place notices on the main page here. Poking around in Meta's templates. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 11:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Sidebar

135px

App-Style

64px

32px

16px

Here is the variant that I would like to submit, if it's still possible. The differences are very slight (aside from the font), and I don't think they would run afoul of any of the issues Legal identified. Differences from original submission: Lenka Stabilo font; slight counterclockwise rotation; slight color adjust for right front band (to make it stand out better at small sizes); remove awkward white stroke from center back band (mistake?); slight widening of basket for favicon (so it doesn't disappear); and change basket color from black to dark brown. --Peter ^Talk 18:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

The gallery with all proposals is at Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R2/Gallery. Having someone's ok, I will open voting. -- Rillke (talk) 18:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

It would probably be best to have confirmation that the balloon variant above is allowable. --Peter ^Talk 18:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you e-Mail Maggie? -- Rillke (talk) 18:48, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

let's put it in. I believe it's okay, based on the nature of the issues identified. Thank you, Peter. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 18:49, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Peter, I know, you've already done so much, but can you confirm that all eligible candidates (and no more) are listed at Wikivoyage/Logo/2013/R2/Gallery? -- Rillke (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Confirmed, let's go! --Peter ^Talk 18:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

+1. :) I will be back in a bit to send announcements. Please let me know via email if you need me for anything sooner. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 18:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Hence, voting is open! -- Rillke (talk) 19:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

thank you, Rillke. You are incredible. :) Peter, I really appreciate the quick turnaround on the logo mod! --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 19:21, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Compass and plane

I see that I'm late to the party, but thought I would add my 2 pence : )

I love hot air balloons, but, with apologies to whoever designed the balloon logo, it's my least favourite.

I really like the plane logo, but I also like the compass points. And without the balloon making the logo a bit too "busy", the combined option might be interesting.

I also note that several people suggested that the "negative space" of the compass points should be a circle.

What I'd like to see as a proposal is combining variant 4 with the plane proposal.

Now we can play with fonts and colour schemes, but I think this would be an interesting proposal for the silhouette of the logo. - Jc37 (talk) 22:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi. :) I'm afraid that the modification period is closed. :/ We are well into the final vote period and can't add new variants to it at this point. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 11:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)