User talk:Verdy p/archive6

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My main discussion page is on the French edition of Wikipédia. But you may write here, as I will come regularly on Meta too. See: w:fr:Discussion Utilisateur:Verdy p. Thanks.

Translation wikicode showing up on pages

Your recent edits to Template:Main seem to be causing some raw wikicode to show up on pages where the template is used. See Help:Dummy edit, for example. Could you please fix the problem? (I'd do it myself, but I wouldn't know what to do other than simply reverting the most recent edits.) - dcljr (talk) 01:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The visible raw code is a current bug of the translate extension. I've fixed several uses about it, but Language select is not the best option and in fact is deprecating in favor of translate extension, notably in templates that are not easily translatable, even with the Language select (which is the old method). verdy_p (talk) 10:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Nothing needs to be reverted. There are simple fixes to do in the pages.

Also, what's the point of translating the header of the Meta:Sandbox?

It is a sandbox, I was testing things currently not working, sandboxes are made for that. But as this sandbox is too unstable I used another sandbox because it was garbled and reverted too soon by stupid bots that should not bother about it, before I ended the test. verdy_p (talk) 10:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a time to use Meta:Language select. Other than that, great work! PiRSquared17 (talk) 02:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Certainly no. See above. verdy_p (talk) 10:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

GrantsBot

regarding this revision. I understand that the bot's actions may be frustrating, but remember that it is, indeed, stupid: GrantsBot is just code, and cannot read edit comments. It will do what it's been told by its creator (me), meaning it will continue to overwrite manual changes to pages that were set up to be automatically updated, until and unless I update the code. In short, if you would like the bot's code to be changed, the most efficient way to do so is to ping me directly, or post to the Evaluation portal talk page. Cheers, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 17:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that I'm preparing the internationalisation and fixing lots of related layout issues that forbif this to happen for now. I also fix existing templates and CSS code to make sure the various pages will be translatable. This preparation work, which occurs before the actual translations are started, requires some changes that the bo curently ignores. It cannot be stopped when it reverses changes, so progresses are difficult, as some tests cannot work reliably if they occur at any time. For this reason I watch all these pages, to see what happens, and when. My intent is to avoid breaking pages absolutely.

Some other changes I do is to make sure that pages are usable on devices with narrow displays such as smartphones or browsers on PC with narrow windows. For now, most of these pages can only be used in English and only on desktop PCs. This clearly limtis the global community of uses that these pages should be focusing.

I perform various tests because these adaptations are difficult. There are various issues (not just in the layout, or translatability, but also in some utility templates used, and some MediaWiki keywords used in numeric expressions : I've battled hard to find the issue in templates computing dates with {{CURRENTYEAR}} until I realized that they were deeply intricated, and that these magic words were actually returning a value which is NOT usable in numeric expressions (because they return other digits). One possible solution would be that the {{#expr: }} parser should be able to interpret at least numeric integers using alternate digits (used by default in Arabic, Bengali, Hindi, and so on, as well as in Hebrew with the alternate representation, see the {{#time: }} documentation about the "xn" flag that I use now to fix these templates (in summary for now: don't use on a multilingual site the magic date keywords, use #time everywhere with "xn" flag, until the #expr parser is fixed).

Other complex issues are related to the directionality of translated pages (usng the dir="ltr/rtl" attribute is not enough due to the site's CSS stylesheet, we also need to use the "content-ltr/rtl" class explicitly. I've recently fixed the Template:Dir. I5d like that these pages being translatable easier without having to wonder much about that, with less efforts from translators that should not worry much about the tricky internal technical details.

I've also fixed some unexpected insertions of newlines that break some layouts, or add superfluous spacing that are undesirable on small displays or produce very ugly results.. A common error found is to use a noinclude section on a separate line for the category or for inserting the documentation. This breaks many things. By convention all such noinclude conventions should be placed at end of pages/templates and start on the last line of the content, the content of the noinclude senction may be safely on separate lines, the /noinclude tag should be isolated. This avoid lots of errors including in other bots that look for these sections at end of pages.

Yes I watch changes, but I really suggest that you also watch changes on pages written by your bot. and read at least these comments in the watch list. This will help you detect things that your bot should fix.

Ideally your bot should have a way to instruct it that it should stop modifying some page, until it is fixed.

Idea: I'd like to don't know if a special keyword in the commit log (visible in the watched list) could help this, or if a specific HTML comment in pages could say

"{{#bot:BotName|stop}}"

until the specific bot is fixed, and then the Bot maintainer removes this special tag). I wonder if this could not be an improvements to control bots, using a standardized tagging method to instruct Bots.

verdy_p (talk) 21:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Verdy p, I'm grateful for many of your contributions to the Evaluation Portal, but I don't have time to put aside my other work this week update my bot code to accommodate the sudden torrent of changes you have made recently. I also don't think that a fixed width layout is the best solution for the Evaluation Portal. I request that you refrain from making any more changes to the Evaluation Portal until we can talk about this. I will have time next week (1/20 - 1/26). Perhaps we can talk over IRC? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 18:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Also, are the changes you're making to the Eval Portal, and plan to make, documented anywhere? Are any other editors involved in this project? Is this part of a larger project you're working on among other pages? Any context you can provide may help me understand why you have chosen to make what appear to be unannounced, unilateral changes to a large number of pages that Heather and I spent a lot of time designing in a particular way. There's a lot of text in your initial reply above, and you may answer some of these questions, but the answers are kind of hard to pick out. Best, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 18:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

There's NO fixed width layout for the portal. I did that on purpose for beong compatible with BOTH narrow displays (smartphones) and wide displays, the layout is autoadaptative and puts columns one below the other if they don't fit side by side with their minimum width where the content can be displayed. IDeally we should also use a CSS media selection for resizing images, but as long as images are not too large, there's no problem.

Also lots of things are wrong in the current layout, including the fact that it needlessly wastes space on small screens. These things have been improved so they can read that.

I have also made them translatable including for RTL languages, because these portals are for the multilingual community at large (not just the English speaking people in US) and really need translation (in lots of domains of concerns, ncluding the evaluation portal for patterns ans solutions, or discussing evoluations of problems.

I made the minimum changes to what you bot needs, but clearly your bot does too much things for things that do not need any bot (such as copying fragments of pages to another, when they can be directly transcluded).

I really make efforts to avoid breaking things and preserve the content, while also making it 'usable and understable.

In fact very few pages regenerated in your Bot need change : a few newlines, using TNT in prefix for templates, and also moving the categories and noinclude sections appropriately at bottom of pages without introducing many newlines at top of transcluded pages.

I know that there are many changes, but theses are only incremental after I test each of them and make sure they work in actual translations. I do not delete any content and want that all contents be displayed correctly, and not bugged once translated (this is one reason why I needed to upate the TNT template which had caveats depending on pages (translated or still not) where templates were used. Without these changes, it would have been impossible to advance a trnaslation framework for these portals.

verdy_p (talk) 19:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Quick update: my apologies, Verdy_p. The reason I was seeing fixed width was not because of your changes to the evaluation portal, but because of a typography experiment that I was inadvertently signed up for on my staff account. Best, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 18:59, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Verdy p. So, the larger problem here is that once a page is marked for translation, it appears that it is no longer editable (by a non-admin). And even if one has admin rights, one has to go through a long and painful process to make the change to the source language page. I'm not mistaken in that assessment, am I? Because that's a huge deal, both practically and philosophically: a wiki isn't a wiki if it can't be edited. Now, you and I have discussed this before. I know you didn't create the problem (and in fact, you helped me understand the nature of the bug). But it is because of your edits to Eval Portal pages that I'm now starting to realize the full implications: the more pages we mark for translation, the less editable the wiki becomes. For grantmaking-pages (pages in Grants: and Programs:, and the templates they use), this is bug is going to cause some serious problems: we're in the middle of a several-month-long project of updating the content of our portals, moving our pages, and creating new stuff. Many, many of our pages and templates need to be open to revision right now. So I would ask that you hold off on marking any more grantmaking-related pages for translation right now, to avoid making it harder for us to get our work done.

This isn't because translation isn't important; translation is very important. But right now, being able to edit the wiki is more important. I'm going to do some research on the translation tool and try to find some kind of solution to the edibility problem. Or at least start to complain loudly until someone either fixes it, shuts me up for good, or shows me I'm wrong. Any advice you have is welcome, and I'm happy to chat any time you want to. I'm usually on IRC as J-Mo (#wikipedia-teahouse, #wikimedia-research and #wikimedia-office) during US Pacific Time business hours. Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Spent a long time today looking through bugs and doc (again), trying to figure out how to proceed from here. As I mentioned, a significant overall of the design of information within Grantmaking and Programs is planned. This overhaul is taking place gradually, over the course of several months. The design and content of many pages will be changing significantly. Marking additional pages and templates for translation at this point just makes more work for everyone, and will increase frustration. This is especially true for changes to templates, as we both know. I share your commitment to making Wikimedia Grantmaking more accessible. I hope you believe that. If the translation extension were more robust, we could all work separately and it would probably turn out okay. But it's not, so we have to coordinate closely to avoid breaking each others work and wasting each others time. For now, I am respectfully asking you to please refrain from making changes to any templates used in the following areas of Meta:

• Evaluation portal
• IdeaLab
• Project and Event Grants
• Annual Plan Grants
• Individual Engagement Grants
• Learning patterns
• Grants start page
• Learning and Evaluation

This includes introducing new dependencies, such as calling templates on those pages through TNT. It is especially true for pages that are regularly updated by GrantsBot, which can be identified through their edit histories. Best, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 01:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Module:Template translation

Hello, I reverted your last two changes to the module after I found that they were causing script errors on the Stewards page. You might have introduced another error when trying to fix another one. Techman224^Talk 20:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

But now your revert causes "script error" when a /en page still does not exist.

What was the issue (I did not saw it, I test every case, pages or transcluded templates, translatable links, whever the translations exist or not, or if they are managed by the Translation template or still built manually).

You should have asked me immediately to see what was the problem (it was probably most probably a cache problem and nothering needed to be changed.

I'm gradually converting lots of pages to be translatable, your revert breaks pages that were finally working. verdy_p (talk) 20:04, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Here's the error I got on Stewards:

Lua error: expandTemplate: template "Special global permissions/Seealso/en" does not exist.

Backtrace:

[C]: in function "expandTemplate"

mw.lua:411: ?

(tail call): ?

mw.lua:558: ?

--Techman224^Talk 20:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Verdy p, can you please undo your revert and restore Techman224's version again? I just happened to be noticing that the page Wikimedia Highlights was filled with script errors. Techman224's edit fixed these, but now they are there again.

Is this is meant to be a workaround for Bugzilla:54579?

Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 20:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

This is exactly the bug that my change fixed (this bug was there since long): it detects that /en does not exist and uses the base page name instead.

Refresh your cache by regenerating pages, because there's nothing wrong in the Stewards page ! verdy_p (talk) 20:18, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The efforts at a workaround for this particular template are appreciated, but the bug (I filed it in September 2013) is a general one that should eventually be fixed in MediaWiki itself.

Wikimedia Highlights still contains prominently visible script errors, even after purging the page cache. The same is true for Privacy policy and Data retention guidelines, pages which are currently at the center of community discussion and translation activity. Please try to fix this as soon as you can, or revert your changes - I don't think it is worth breaking these pages to work around a few occurrences of bug 54579 in other places. Note that the missing /en subpage can also be generated with a dummy edit. Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The bug is fixed (at least in all pages you indicated) (but I've NOT reverted my changes that are absolutely needed to support easy conversion to the translation framework, with or without the /en subpages).

This is a tricky bug caused in LUA function frame:expandTemplate, which still assumes a default "Template:" namespace, when it is given a fully reslved ofject of type "title", instead of a "string" type.

I fixed it by prepending a ":" to the resolved title name. My opinion is that Lua "frame" object has a bug there (and a performance issue as it will recreate a new "title" object from a "string" pagename that has already been resolved. I hope that the "costly" counter (in mw.title:new) does not increment when it is used to reference a cached title object multiple times to the same full page name. verdy_p (talk) 21:25, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Note that the bug I wanted to fix (it is resolved now) means that if the parameter given to TNT indicates a non-existing page, you will no long see a bind "Script error", but a red link showing the missing page name (in its assumed and resovled namespace).

And the TNT template can be used now even if the given page is still not translated (and does not have a "/en" subpage at least.

This is what I realy wanted since long (blind "Script error" are a nightmare to locate and fix). This is done now.

You should no longer see any "Script error" depending on the page name given to TNT. verdy_p (talk) 21:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm still seeing lots of pages on Category:Pages with script errors that use that template, however I'm not seeing any visible script error messages. Techman224^Talk 04:54, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Categories are not emptied automatically until pages are regenerated. There were lots of cases even before my change, that caused the script error (but the Translate tool forgets to regenerate many of them, if you don't null-edit them). Look at any one of them, null-edit it, and the error category is gone. verdy_p (talk) 10:27, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, the errors on the three pages I linked above are gone now. Thanks you for fixing this! Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 08:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:LangSwitch

I just had to revert your changes to this template: it broke a lot of commonly used templates on Meta. Please be careful. --Rschen7754 09:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

If you want an example, Template:Done. --Rschen7754 09:12, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

This template works normally. Nothing is broken. verdy_p (talk) 09:13, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

No, there were funny line breaks all over SRP until I reverted your changes a few minutes ago. Please, use a sandbox, and do not revert until you have tested the code. --Rschen7754 09:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

This template works normally, this is typically a UI template, not a content template. And I passed hours testing it in a sandbox already.

You've still not said where it breaks, because it does NOT generate any linebreak. verdy_p (talk) 09:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Every instance of {{Done}} and {{Not done}} on SRP. It's not doing it now because I've reverted you. --Rschen7754 09:18, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Your massive deletion breaks much more than a very minor tweak that was easy to tune. That's something you don't understand, but massive reverts after hours of hours is very unfriendly. I am massively translating the site, or allowing it to be fully translated and not just focuing only English speaking users. Meta is for the world in all projects, not just for US. verdy_p (talk) 09:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

On Wikimedia and even in general software engineering we do NOT deploy broken code or code that has not been tested, and if something breaks, we revert to the last working version and then fix it from there. Your code broke every instance of {{Support}}, {{Oppose}}, {{Done}}, and {{Not done}} on Meta-Wiki, and perhaps other templates. Apparently you didn't test it well enough, and this seems to be a pattern, looking at the threads above. I almost reported you to M:RFH, and probably will next time this level of disruption happens. --Rschen7754 09:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

You made false assertions here. I have tested it a lot. The code did not come magically from a simple fast edit. Note that the "breaks" you cite are for someting that is only a very minor presentation in talk pages that have no structure. These templates you cite are just esthetic and even if there was a line break, nothing was broken. verdy_p (talk) 09:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Your massive deletion breaks much more than a very minor tweak that was easy to tune. That's something you don't understand, but massive reverts after hours of hours is very unfriendly. I am massively translating the site, or allowing it to be fully translated and not just focuing only English speaking users. Meta is for the world in all projects, not just for US. verdy_p (talk) 09:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I need these fallbacks exactly to avoid breaking pages with lots of contents, and that are being converted to be later translated progressively with the new translate interface. This includes very active portals, policiies in active reviews, and more generally the navigation across important sections of the site, that was left largely unmaintained and has progressively slept to an English-only community, with very bad habits taken restrictin its use elsewhere in the world: all decisions of policies on MEta are largely biased for US English users as all others have huge difficulties to navigate it. Do you know that the World divide is one of the main focus of the Foundation that we should really work on. Meta is definitely NOT English Wikipedia (and not even Commons which has very few text contents (except discussions that are made freely and unstructured in all languages mixed).

verdy_p (talk) 09:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

That's great and all, but that is not a license to deploy code that breaks half of Meta. --Rschen7754 09:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

False assertion again, I did not break half of Meta !!! you just saw some (un)esthetic line breaks in discussions. verdy_p (talk) 09:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Module:Template translation (2)

Hi! See Template talk:Translatable template#Template is not worked at the "Category:" namespace. --Kaganer (talk) 14:38, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I Replied there. This works, and translations autocategorize correctly the translated categories in their parent language and in the collection of tranlsations.

verdy_p (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I still do not see where it works. Please read my reply there. --Kaganer (talk) 15:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Your recent edits appear to have caused multiple issues here on MetaWiki, including adding random line breaks in all of the {{oppose}} and {{done}}-style temlates and now we're stuck with <tvar>'s all over the steward elections. I have asked some other users to revert your changes where appropriate, but given your lack of cooperation in the thread above, I'd like to formally caution you to do your tests on testwiki or in another such environment rather than Metawiki. Regards, Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 23:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• There's NO linebreaks anywhere in oppose and done.
• For the elections, this is a translation in progress and translations requires some of them. Translations are not finished, even if we've worked hard to have them. This is hard work, this can be fixed, but English is definitely not the universal language for this worldwide community process. I can also confim that there was absolutely nothing wrong in pages of the Steward elections. Translations are ongoing and corrections are being made as discovered by translators. Many translations are not finished (and new items will appear).

These verbatim tvars are caused by a current bug of the Transate tool, which ignores the last submitted translation whn it regenerates immediately the page with the new item. The same bug affects cases where a new version of the source page is submitted to the tool, by marking it. Generally we need to perform immediatetely after a null-edit (such as adding or removing the space before the slash within "<languages />", and marking again the same page for translation (this space has no effect on the generated pages).

This bug was not known to translators (any user) and to many translation admins (when they mark pages). I have informed translators and translation admins when they ask, and this is confirmed: we need a work-around, but nothing is wrong in those edits. The issue is in the tool itself, and not in what we submit to it.

The bug is currently tracked in Bugzilla, and it's true that it is very disruptive (and the work around using null edits, when marking pages, or by reconfiming at least one translation item in the Translate interface, are not very easy for everyone. But for now we have to live with these work-arounds.

verdy_p (talk)

I don't understand the connection between my comments and your reply. Yes, there are no linebreaks now, where were before and I don't know why you keep being so aggressive about it. Nobody's ever questioned the importance of translations or suggested that meta should discontinue them, I fail to see the relevance of your repeated accusations in both this section and the one above to the contrary. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 02:33, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The connection is evident, for the two kinds of issues: linebreaks (which were caused temporarily on some languages due to the use of "div"/"span" elements, now "bdi" in rare cases), and with the tvar's which are caused by a bug in the Translate tool (which forgets to regenerate some pages that have been updated and then marked again for translation)

All examples I've looked for for linebreaks don't exist, wherever these templates are used (in threaded discussions on talk pages, they don't break the indentation or the paragraph like here: Done. I really need a pointer about these pages, and the language you use for the interface (the issue may be language-specific but I4m unable to locate any example. Which user interface language do you use? Isn't it a problem of page refresh? What happens if you null-edit that page (edit and save) or purge it? verdy_p (talk) 02:38, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the linebreaks are gone, because when I left the note on your talkpage I had just reverted your additions, which fixed the issue. And I use English for my interface language, which is quite common. --Rschen7754 04:37, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

You're wrong. The linebreaks are gone because I changed "div" tags (used to surround translations in another content language than the place where the template is included, so that the translation has the correct font styles and direction) into "bdi" tags, and this means that fallbacks are currently active with everything I made (more fallback will come later with a Lua module) ! verdy_p (talk) 04:41, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

And you still do not indicate whoch pages still have tvars. This does not necessarily comes from me, this can happen anywhere from any editor when a translation admin marks a new version. Yes this is a bug of the Translate tool, but nothing is wrong in the edited code itself, we just need to force the page to be refreshed by the tool. If you note more places where tvars are left verbatim, inform me, it is really easy to fix if you cannot do it yourself as it requires translation admin right to mark the page to translate once again. verdy_p (talk) 04:47, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

LangSwitch

Hi. It appears that your edits in {{LangSwitch}} have changed its behaviour. I use it on my user page, as well on a sub-page, but they no longer automatically change to Spanish language when a Spanish spoken user sees them. Should I change the code or parameters to make it work? --ralgis·/t/ 18:20, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

it works using the user language by default (read the doc, there are examples).

Example: {{done}} = Done is in your language and not necessarily in English. All similar templates using LangSwitch use the user language by default. verdy_p (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Effectively there was something changed, as LangSwitch was used on Meta-Wiki only in tempaltes that give an explicit language to resolve. In a tricky case, the user language was ignored and so the switch started to use chains of fallbacks, and English was selected before Spanish. The doc page of Langwitch now explicits this behavior (it was never documented before) and includes tests for various cases.

Note: your page will later display Spanish as fallback instead of English, for visitors speaking Aranese, Asturian, Basque, Catalan, Extremadurian and Gallician (is it OK for Gallician or should LangSwitch use Portuguese as fallback ?) verdy_p (talk) 20:23, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Script errors after recent edits to the "draft" template

Bonjour Verdy p,

I just noticed some Lua script errors for "{{draft/en}}" on pages that looked fine before, e.g. this one (btw, a French translation is welcome there, this is an important text about the WMF Board).

Any chance that this has to do with these recent changes, and do you have an idea how to fix it? Thanks!

Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I have already noted that, and fixed a couple of things. But now the Draft template uses TNT automatically to find the correct translation; it was supposed to be immune as you should still be able to transclude Draft/en directly. Ill fix it. verdy_p (talk) 00:05, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

For your information, I added a discssion on MediaWiki-Wiki about th problem. There's effectively a bug, but it is is easy to fix in pages themselves, by removing the /en suffix (a bot can easily subtitute Draft/en by Draft in all pages transcluding Draft/en directly, this will be faster to do than by hand: I have tested already that it works on a dozen of pages, the bot will do the 200+ remaining).

See there for details (it discusses the issue, proposes something, and discusses the workaround that works here in all cases I found for now:

mw:Help talk:Extension:Translate/Page translation administration#Proposal: adding T:ins and T:del pseudo-elements.

There I detail things as precisely as possible. verdy_p (talk) 09:51, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:Maintenance Category

Hi there! I think that you broke something here. On Category:Deleteme it shows up rather weird. I haven't reverted your edits to the template, as I'm not actually sure what I'd then break when I simply revert your changes. Please have a look at it and get it fixed (or reverted). Regards, -Barras talk 13:44, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I absolutely don't see what is wrong. Can you be more precise ? For me it works in all user languages. verdy_p (talk) 13:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

OK I see, during my changes, I tested first using a #switch, now it is a LangSwitch, the fallbacks are handled differently. verdy_p (talk) 13:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Good, it now seems to be working! Thanks for the quick fix. -Barras talk 13:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

[1]

Why did you remove the two quotes and replace with one quote? PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

These where not two quotes, but a single double-quote, the punctuation verdy_p (talk) 20:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

See example. When using two quotes it makes italic, so use double quote. Why did you remove double quote? PiRSquared17 (talk) 20:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

If you want two quotes you have ’’ (using curly single quotes, not the vertical tick of ASCII single quotes)... Using the ASCII double-quote is just an easy hack if it's really needed, but not wanted in accurate translation. verdy_p (talk) 20:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Should it be d’’a or d‘‘a? I don't see the problem with single/double quotes, really. Maybe it's just because I'm used to typing in English. PiRSquared17 (talk) 21:00, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You wrote « d’’a or d‘‘a », this is the same (using two apostrophes). I suppose you mean one or two apostrophes. But I doubt that the final elision apostrophes will not merge with the leading glotal apostrophe of the next word: these glotal apostrophes do not exist in words between a consonnant and a vowel, so there's no confusion. My opinon is that this was a typing error with the two keys sid-by-side on the keyboard (there are a few errors like incorrect capitals corrected). Anyway, if I'm wrong this can still be corrected by adding the second apostrophe. verdy_p (talk) 21:07, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

No, it's correct (mailarchive:wikitech-l/2006-August/025677.html). Also the two options I gave are different. One uses forward apostrophes, the other backward apostrophes. Do you think we should restrict translations to Italian regional languages for all those pages, or just make them "priorities"? PiRSquared17 (talk) 02:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

So if the glottal stop is the backward apostrophe, the pair of reversed apostrophes (’‘) it is clearly distinct from an ASCII double-quote.

Also I don't think there's a need to restrict languages. It is enough to define priorities, there's no reason to not allow other languages which may be used as well in Italy (and are effectively used officially, like French and German, possibly Slovenian as well). If you allow English because it is the base of translations, it does not mean it is a priority, just a necessity on Meta where it is the default source language. The title of these pages will clearly make sure that Italian will be used as reference (and it is also used as the first fallback for all of them, except German and French). Translator or regional Italian languages will be proposed the Italian version as reference, before anything else, so this is not a problem. verdy_p (talk) 02:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Meta:Sandbox

Is there really a reason to mark this page for translation? IMO language select for the header would be good enough. The <translation> tags are showing. PiRSquared17 (talk) 01:37, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I was initially trying to protect the translations in the fixed header while allowing it to be autotranslated, and editing to be performed in the base page (it's true that this user-editable sandbox should not be marked as needing translation, bit the header template then is not used and would only display English instructions), but I've still not found the trick to do that.

If you have suggestions I've still not experimented... verdy_p (talk) 08:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know, but I think it is pointless. Why isn't language select enough? BTW, an edit war with a bot is pointless. PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes but a Bot that cannot be contacted is much mire pointless if it is not administered to see that its edits are canceled and why: there's a "reset sandbox" since long, and there's no need of a bot to clear so often a sandbox page, made on purpose to allow edits as often as needed.

When I made the page trnaslatable it was to avoid the multiplication of editable sandboxes. My change gives help and returns back to the appropriate documentaiton in the correct language, while permitting editing a single sandbox page for everyone. verdy_p (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

You should contact User:Cyberpower678. PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Before you do, I must warn that said user is not so easily communicated with. Typically he will explain how he and his bot are right and you are wrong. If there's no way the he could be right, then he will either ignore your message or revert it. My advice is to forget it. 88.113.152.153 16:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

The Bot usage policy explicitly says that Bot maintainers MUST communicate, and MUST be administered as long as it is active (if the Bot maintainer is absent, he should put his Bot offline); if not, we can block it by asking to a Steward to do that, or to block its edits on specific sets of pages. All Bots should have "STOP" instructions (it's not the case of this one, that also forgets to publish refular logs of its actions for eahc wiki where it is active) verdy_p (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Cyberbot I/Run/Meta-daily exists, but not sure how it works. There are instructions on the enwiki userpage but I am somewhat confused. If we really need to, I can block it or create an AbuseFilter. PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I have the same question, and can't really see that it has been answered. I can't see any reason at all why the sandbox should be a translatable page, and can't see that you have explained it. I see it as a huge waste of time (your time, and you do what you want, but still). Jon Harald Søby (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

That's because it is refererenced in several places as a free playground but as part of a doc that is translated, it creates links opportunities to create many of them, kept later unmaintained, and without any return bac to the loal documentation. So the localized doc remains accessible there with the correct returns, the free playground remains there, but it is unique. And no need for a bot to clean it up so often.

The sandbox is regularly updated for some good reasons and reasonnable tests, but sometimes it is also used to test some damageable attacks (due to its visibility). That's what I want to avoid (while maintaining the reference to the origjn language) so that it remains useful for legitimate users in any native languages, that may want to experiment with some complex syntax or new features they discover in docs.

It is also interesting to know how people can try to turn over some limitations in attempts to break other parts of the site. It is an interesting test also for creating later pages for votes and community pages within translated portals, to manimize impacts on the static parts of it. verdy_p (talk) 21:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Headers in translation

Hi Verdy p, you made edits with headers like this. We are talking about this change here. Just in case you wanna know -- Ата ^(talk) 19:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Concerning my edit, I just reflected the geader that was marked as fuzzy by the change of format.

I have no opinin about which kind of format is better for translations, or for a technical point of view.

For translators, they should not have to worry about markup details, and removing the '==' from the translation unit allows restructuring the article and headers levels, without changing the translations, and also offers better use of the translation memory.

verdy_p (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Translation

Bonjour. Eu vi o que fêz agora a pouco recebi pelo meu email. Da próxima vez eu deixo em minúsculo. 201.29.224.117 13:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

What and where ? If you are speaking about a new translatable category, that I just created, feel free to update them, for now I'm filling the red-link categories with basic translations, but I do not mark them as completed. Also you should register an account (note: I'm a translation admin here on Meta, but I'm not an authority in all languages, I just help providing the translatability and localisability, and I reorganize completely the categories to allow easy navigation using the user language across pages. Many new pages are translatable on Meta since my work in the recent weeks. verdy_p (talk) 13:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I did a translation of Meka-Wiki English for Portuguese of Brazil, last night, and I saw that today the Lord changed some of the words in upper case to lower case today. I usually put the titles in capital letters. :-) Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 14:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Bonne nuit, Eu vi meu email agora, mas o senhor escreveu errado. o correto é "a página principal" o senhor escreveu la pagina principa, isso é espanhol.  :-) Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 20:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

There were already existing two orthographies on the same page (and a mixup in Categories)... I just checked one other Portuguese page to which one was correct. I don't think this difference comes from Spanish but from a typing error. Make sure that Iberic and Brasilian Portuguese are correct; I have also found the adjective "dominio" used in some Portuguese wikis.... verdy_p (talk) 20:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok. domínio = dominar alguém, but domínio = Domain (DNS, etc) Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 20:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Categoria

See also my announcement on Meta talk:Babylon#Why translating categories. verdy_p (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

---

Bonjour
Verdy leia o que eles escreveram acima. Eles estão informando qual é o PADRÃO DAS CATEGORIAS
Verdy lire ce qu'ils ont écrit plus haut. Ils vous disent qui est la valeur par défaut dans les catégories
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translations:Category:Places/Page_display_title/pt-br
Eles escreveram naquela edição o seguinte: Translations:Category:Places/Page display title/pt-br
Category:Places/Lugares/pt-br
Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 14:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This is to change the "displayed" title at top of pages. Titles are fully translatable including the namespace part. This does not change the name of the page itself ! In fact it should reproduce the native interface found in other wikis like Wikipedia, with their translated namespace names. All other languages are translting these titles and not just the content of pages. verdy_p (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Eles usam Category para programar as páginas dentro do sistema da Meta. Não pode traduzir a palavra Category. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 15:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

That's completely false. These translated titles are NOT used by the system, they are ONLY displayed in a h1 element, just like when you use {{TITLEPAGE:...}} to define the effective title to display instead of the page name. All titles are fully translated here in French, Chinese, Russian... If thy were not translatable, they would not be even given to translate in the interface.

Do not confuse these translated titles with internal Wiki pagenames. verdy_p (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Então estou errada. Melhor os programadores do sistema da Meta informarem o correto. Não vou teimar com o senhor. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)Não vou mais traduzir nenhuma Categoria. O senhor acha que eu estou traduzindo errado. Vou deixar todas sem tradução de hoje em diante. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 16:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

You don't have to leave the project, just consider that what you thought was simply wrong, but now you know that eveything given to the Translate interface is translatable, unless there's a notice not to do that in the displayed documentation on the right. If there's a problem in a source, this can be discussed by posting to the doc page associated to the problematic element. Of you may propose changes to the English source to correct the technical details and a Translator admin will review it and validate it if this works (but don't change too many things in the source page, otherwise it would break all existing translations and the proposed changes will be reverted). Make sure you've read the doc about the Translate extension, but consider also that things are evolving in this newest tool (yes we know that there are still bugs in it). verdy_p (talk) 16:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Não sei do que o senhor está falando. Não estou em nenhum projeto. Nem conheço os projetos da Meta. Somente estava traduzindo o que eu leio em inglês para o português do Brasil.Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 16:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This project is simple: translate everything you see in the Translate interface, except where you've been instructed not to do so, because it really gives problems (for example beware of wiki tags and templates, if they are not hidden in the nterface this is explained since long in the Translate Help pages, but f you try you'll see that this breaks the rendered page).

Take an example and look for how it works in other languages like French, or Chinese, you'll see that there's absolutely no problem to translate the prefixes exactly like what they look in the Portuguese edition of Wikipedia. There a few cases where the prefixes must not be translated verbatim, it's when there were technical problems in the source English file to use some characters like the colon (:) or shrp sign (#) in an actual title in leading position. The Translate tool just proposes you what is in the default English namespace name and pagename, but these are translatable.

Translate what you can, look at the rendered page for rereading what it gives. If this look OK and does not break the page layout, it is OK ! However you may find cases where some translatable elements are not easy to translate as the ordering of elements should be changed: signal these problems on the talk page associated to the translated page, and a translate admin will fix the problems, or someone will develop a helper template for complex cases. verdy_p (talk) 16:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Eu não vou entrar em projeto nenhum. Uso pouco a Meta e Wikipedia, de 2006 a 2013 não usei quase nada. Apenas quis ajudar a traduzir quando vi pedirem ajuda na Wikipedia (pt). eu estava me basenando em fr es it pt para traduzir desde a primeira tradução que eu fiz. Mas não sei mais nada. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 17:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

May be you did not know, then you should have not used your revert right without reading the comments that was inserted.

But now you know! So continue translating with this knowledge. Translating should not require any technical knowledge (or the strict minimum if we can't avoid it, and this will be documented in the doc appearing in the right side of the Translate interface). Ypu're welcome to do that when you want (But Portuguese is not the language lacking the most translators, it's why I have worked to improve the translatable interface and navigation on Meta, as the newest Translate tool makes things really easier for translators without heavy technical knowledge).

We'll still need translators like you, even if they are occasional and they focus on translating a single page or correcting a few items. Have a good end of afternoon. verdy_p (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. Eu vou continuar a traduzir alguns documentos de inglês para o português. Mas não irei traduzir as Categorias. Não sei mais o correto a fazer com elas na tradução. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 17:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The term Categoria: is really used on all Portuguese editions of Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikinews, Wiktionary, etc. It is correct. And the root category on PT.Wikipedia also uses the plural Categoria:Categorias. Both terms are the defaults in the MediaWiki translation to Portuguese (Iberic [2] and Brazilian [3]). verdy_p (talk) 18:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

No meu perfil na Meta, o Categoria não funciona. No meu perfil da Meta o que está funcionando é o Category. Eu sei que em pt.wikipedia.org usam Categoria. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 19:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

What is not working for you ? Everything is right whant navigating, independantly of the title that is specified in the translation. But on a page translated to portuguese, the title will be translated, and will not match the page name, even if you kept the English namespace name in the prefix. So either you don't want any translated totle at all, and you don't provide any translation for the title. Or you translate the title and its prefix. There's no reason to translate the title partially.

I repeat it: the title you insert in the Translate interface is NOT the page name, it will NOT rename the page which continues to use the English namespace prefix, the Ensglish title and the langauge code suffix.

You could put complete random junk in a translated title, the page woould continue to work (it would display this random junk in the title instead of the pagename, but nothing else would be changed.

Translating the visible title is just doing that. verdy_p (talk) 19:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Je ne parle pa French. Estudei francês ha uns 30 anos atrás. Essa é a primeira vez que falo com alguém do seu idioma. Gostei, Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 19:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I also do not speak Chinese or Arabic (even if I have borrowed some Arabic or Chinese terms already in large used in Wikipedia or Wikidata). or many of the languages for which I have contributed the translatibility to Chinese or Arabic. I just explain you that page titles are fully translatable like the rest within the Translate tool.

Look at the working examples, even in Brazilian Portuguese. I don't know what I can say you to better convince you that we don't need to keep Englush namespace names in translated titles. They are undesirable for those that just want to read Portuguese and are confused by English namespace names glued just before the pagename translated to Portuguese. MediaWiki itself wants to translate these namespaces, even in monolingual wikis like Wikipedia ! verdy_p (talk) 19:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Meu mouse ficou estranho, tive que trocar. Não sei nada de MediaWiki nem sei para que serve. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 20:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Eu estou traduzindo as paginas em português do Brasil deve ter umas 3 semanas. Mas somente li uma página que eu traduzi, porque alguém me enviou para fazer uma revisão final. Não li nenhuma das páginas que eu traduzi. Não costumo navegar nas páginas da Meta. Somente traduzo algum texto e depois saio. Não fico procurando páginas para lêr. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 20:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

OK. Good evening to you in Brasil! verdy_p (talk) 20:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Eu traduzo palavras ou frases de textos. Nem sei que página pertence algumas das palavras que eu traduzi. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Boa Noite. Eu não sei navegar nas páginas da Meta. Nem sei o que existe de informação além das palavras que eu já traduzi. Não conheço o Wiki nem Babel. Ainda não li nenhum manual. Não li nada a respeito dos projetos que a Meta tem. Nas últimas semanas eu só tenho traduzido. Não conheço quase ninguém aqui na Meta. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 21:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. Ontem, eu entendi sim, a sua explicação. Mas não quanto aos seus projetos. Eu não faço parte de nenhum dos projetos da Meta. Bom dia. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 11:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Vi somente agora a noite que o senhor alterou diversas páginas de Categorias que eu fiz. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 22:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

No you don't want to listen what I4ve explianed you many times. DO NOT use "category", it is the English term; not the Poruguese term. DO NOT use suffixes: they are not in the original English page and are just technical items, not part of the title itself.

I'll revert all your changes like this. Translate Portuguese pages ONLY to Portuguese (you may use English only if there's no other term in Portuguese. Follow what is used on Portuguese Wikipedia. verdy_p (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Mas eu estou configurada como português do Brasil, mas o template das categorias dentro do meu perfil de usuária, ele está lendo como Category, ele não está lendo como Categoria (em português) = Mais je suis configuré comme le portugais brésilien, mais le modèle de catégories dans mon profil de l'utilisateur, il lisait comme category, il n'est pas lire comme une categoria (en Portugais) Bonne nuit Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 02:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

O senhor alterou uma categoria como Categoria:Reino Unido, por exemplo, eu inclui no meu template de categoria, e a Categoria Reino Unido está aparecendo como página inexistente = Vous avez modifié une catégorie comme Categoria:Reino Unido, par exemple, j'ai inclus dans mon modèle de catégorie, et la Categoria Reino Unido fait son apparition en tant que page inexistante. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 02:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Amgauna, please try to understand this: the actual category name is Category:United Kingdom/pt-br, but if you type in "Categoria:Reino Unido" that is what it will say at the top of the Category:United Kingdom/pt-br page. When you actually add a category, you must use Category:(English name)/pt-br, but the display text at the top of the category will say Categoria:(Portuguese name). If you do not understand, maybe you should just stop translating categories. There's a lot you can help with here other than categories. :-) PiRSquared17 (talk) 02:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Look option Category = https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets

No. United Kingdom is category in english. but my category is in portuguese. Ninguém me entende. Desisto. Boa Noite. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 03:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

STOP using the Translate tool and read the doc, you are confusing everything !!! verdy_p (talk) 04:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Não estou confundindo, não. Já exitem algumas categorias em português funcionando quando eu digito o nome em português lá. Mas vocês estão é implicando comigo. Perdi varias horas a toa digitando hoje, e perdi várias horas a toa conversando com vocês. Ninguém entende nada do que eu digo. Boa Noite, Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You have also stolen me lot of time by refusing to read the basic documentation and everything I instructed you. You just continued to enter English words in Portuguese translations. That's bad. You've also continued to use he suffixes "p/t-br" that are not needed once the totle is translated (it is only part of the wiki pagename, but actually not in the page title". You continue to not make the differece between the source and the target language of the translation.

Worse: you've introduced visibly a lot of translations by using an automatic translator, breaking te HTML or wiki syntax. For example you add or remove apostrophes ('), or insert spaces in sequences of double or triple apostrophes when they are NOT text but wiki-markup for Bold' or Italic. You break basic HTML elements such as <br /> which are NOT text. You also don't understand may things in the source language to translate.

At least translators should understand English before they attempt to translate it to another language. Visibly you don't qualify as a valid translator. verdy_p (talk) 05:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Não. Eu apenas estava fazendo o favor de traduzir os textos em inglês para a Meta. Um favor. Estavam pedindo pessoas para ajudar com as traduções e eu vim ajudar. Já me arrependi. vou dormir. Boa noite. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 05:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

See also User talk:PiRSquared17#Categorias where PiRSquared17 confirms that I'm right. and that Ana Mercedes Gauna is completely confused and should not work on this topic as long as she does not understand. verdy_p (talk) 15:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Eu não estou confusa coisa nenhuma. Quem está confuso é o senhor, que não entendeu absolutamente nada do que eu disse ao PIRSquared17 no outro dia. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 17:00, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

See also the similar replied from User talk:Teles#Tradução. He experiments the same issues with you Ana, there will soon more people reexplaining you that we absolutely don't need pseudo-translators that only copy-paste from Google Translator and do not understand anything about the meaning of terms, or the basics of our Wikimedia projects.

The instructions given require you to read the docs before starting. You still do not qulify with the same errors. Only translate things you know and understand yourself.

If you cannot read English correctly without using Google Translator to help you, DO NOT use it to translate anything here with it, (it is even more critical when you translate just a few words rather than full sentences, because words have no context and errors are difficult to track). verdy_p (talk) 22:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Verdy, I think you are getting too upset over this. I recommend you calm down a bit, and then assume good faith. Your advice is appreciated, but the tone of your latest edits will probably drive away new users like Ana. Note that I am only discussing this incident, not any other of you work (I am quite impressed by your work with translations BTW). PiRSquared17 (talk) 22:16, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I have been extremely patient before (see above). But she started a war herself. I have not signaled her immediately, I have asked her to stop this cakmly, but she does not want to hear anything.

I'm not sure that other lusophones here will continue to tolerate for long her voluntary and repeated same "errors". But as she has by evidence probkems in reading english correctly, I ask her to stop translating English when she does not undestand it without Google Translator... There are too many errors in what she "translates" (I should say "copy-paste from Google" without understanding anything. We don't need copy-pasting from Google, because Google already proposes its Pourtuguese translations automatically when visiting untranslated English pages. If we want translations here it is to be more usable than what Google already proposes (with too frequent misused words or unstable terminology which can confuse many users).

She knows that by acting like so, it will force me to loose some time to cancel her deletions. She knows that I"m alerted and forced to act before her changes become uncancellable in an easy way.

She probably knows that if she acted like this in Portuguese Wikipedia, she would be upsetting other users. And she lies constantly. verdy_p (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Dear Verdy_p, you are certainly right. But there is also a chance you are not. In any way, being excessively rude can only antagonize people. When you are new to the project (and you were too, once, as I did), you feel like you came in a new world. You need people to explain things, and time to understand them. I know you may be upset, but agressivity is certainly not the good answer to that. Thank you for your understanding. -- Quentinv57 ^(talk) 22:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not "new" to the project even if I was very active on it. But I've been regulrly active on it since at least one year (with an account created already since many years), not just a few weeks like her (here only, because she's been active for enough time on PT.WP). I am ot excessively rude (read above). I tried to explain calmly long before she started deleting user pages. verdy_p (talk) 23:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

@Quentinv57: it's official, verdy has driven away this user. PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:47, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

STOP

Stop all your edits to Wikimedia Community Logo/Reclaim the Logo, you've introduced a number of mistakes and I'm fixing them. --Nemo 10:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

No there's NO errors. The transclusions of the editable section are correct as they are not translatable.

The links were also brooken on the OHMI site, they have been fixed. verdy_p (talk) 10:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Fine, I'm asking an emergency deflag. --Nemo 10:45, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Which emergency ??? What is wrong, explain !? verdy_p (talk) 10:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

On your reply, I've not edited anything because before I saved my edit you suppressed the page... And I can't edit because you'd conflict me or trigger Translate in contrasting directions, causing havoc. --Nemo 11:02, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I have not suppressed the page, it was moved because its parent page had been renamed with "Wikimedia" prefix, nothing else !!! Immediately Nemo reacted, before I had time to change two links on two subpages. He acted too fast, verdy_p (talk) 11:07, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Couldn't you just avoid overreacting immediately during a small period that required editing 2 pages  ? You've broken again what was already correct.

The only action I took was to add the "Wikimedia" prefix because the parent page had been renamed with it. I already knew that 2 pages will immediately need to be fixed, and that for the transit time, would track links pointng to the page (because Translate rename does not create redirects like standard renames, not even for the base page) verdy_p (talk) 11:23, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

In summary I wat you revert your revert, which was not justified, please restore the Wikimedia prefix (it is also needed for the autocategorization of translated pages, at the bottom, ecause now they are broken: it requires the pagename to be given in parameter otherwise this does not work in subpages, but if the basepage name is wrong, it will be wrong everywhere). verdy_p (talk) 11:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You are also reverting the to broken link http://oami.europa.eu/ows/rw/pages/CTM/regProcess/opposition.en.do on the OHMI site. This page explaining the general procedure is located now elsewhere (and I have indicated the correct link).

The numbered records however have not changed.

Nemo, seriously, make further checks, your "corrections" are completely wrong.

I know that this page can be sensitive to you as you are part of the issue (and paid money with other for the OHMI appeal), but I dod not want to hurt you but correct things that were already broken. verdy_p (talk) 11:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Verdy, now I'm getting really sick of your edits.[4] You even edit conflicted me now, again. I told you I'm working on it, just stop doing whatever you're doing because you don't know what you're doing. --Nemo 12:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Can"t you see that the link goes nowhere except to the portal of OHMI but not to the expected procedure ? verdy_p (talk) 12:20, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't, I'm updating the links. You're just making me lose time on this page, leave it alone. --Nemo 12:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Only now it doesn't but you would have not even noticed it if I had not included it (you even left a comment "I can't believe it" and then finally relaized I was right, and decided to use another similar working link as the one I have left). Losing time is unavoidable when there are issues.

You have also partially corrected the untranslatability of one sentence that contained English text in a tvar, that's something that I had done but that you also reverted... before doing it again ! verdy_p (talk) 17:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Sure, you're the centre of the world. I was already saving the fix when you edit conflicted me, I knew very well I had to update that link. You only slowed me down. --Nemo 13:17, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Note: you have still not reapplied your changes to the translatable version. I leave you doing it, because you want it, but please update it as for now translations get broken (for you, for example, in Italian) with your new changes that correct exactly what I did myself ! verdy_p (talk) 17:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, breakage is great due to your hasty marking and I'm glad you're not going to remark the page. I'll do that when appropriate, there's no hurry. Pages must be marked when they're stable, let me remind you one more time. --Nemo 13:17, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

You have been asked to Stop, please do

You have been asked to stop, I do hope that you will keep your hands off all translation things until there is a resolution of this matter.  — billinghurst sDrewth 10:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I've finishied fixing the links. Nothing else. Nobody has saif me what was wrong (only for a couple of minutes two links were not working between two pages edited separately, nothing else). Nemo has acted too fast and has not replied to me, I'm waiting for his arguments. verdy_p (talk) 10:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

When asked to stop, please stop, do not just continue, whether you think that someone is right or wrong, or whether you want to or not. Just stop and resolve the issue. I have asked for this matter to be taken somewhere for discussion and the nominated place is Meta talk:Babylon  — billinghurst sDrewth 10:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I have not refused to stop on this page, in fact, all was terminated already when I received the notification from Nemo. Look by yourself the result verdy_p (talk) 11:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Contributions don't lie and that's where I looked.[5] You made further edits after replying to my message, you can't say you hadn't seen it. --Nemo 11:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

And these are exactly the two links to subpages that I fixed after the rename. Nemo was acting just in the middle. of these. for a couple of minutes only. It was impossible to do that in a single edit so there was a very small delay. verdy_p (talk) 11:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

And now that Nemo has reverted the rename, the page is broken when it was already fixed ! Nemo does not understand. I was also tracking links, and Nemo had no reason to react in emergency. But now after reverting the rename, the situation is WORSE, the two subpages (/Support, /Oppose) are no longer linked.

When you perform emergency reverts without verifying anything. I was polite, why are you acting like this?

OK renaming the page with the Wikimedia prefix was not what you want, I have then canceled this in the two pages that needed to have the previex removed, and in the categories at bottom of page (because of your revert, but you forgot it). I never wanted to hurt you about this. But you did not need to be so reactive and ak admins immediately without even trying any contact !

Do you think you are the only owner of this site or this page? Even if you are involved personally in the subject of the page, the page does not belong to you.

I know perfectly what I was doing, but you don't want to check... What can I do if you want to act alone on this page? Do you realize that the sentence you reverted is impsosible to trnaslate correctly ? You've reverted it because I had put user names in tvar's, and I thought it would be more respectful to keep them untranslated (so no need to maintain them in all pages), it was not made to hurt. verdy_p (talk) 12:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You have an interesting perspective on the word STOP. I can still see you editing in the Translation namespace. I find it disrespectful that another has asked, then I have asked (very nicely), with a request to talk the matter through at a page, and all I am seeing is "Yes but ..." Is it a block that you are after to demonstrate the word stop? Is it a removal of the rights that is required. You get to choose which version of stop, and if you don't choose one of them, then I will.  — billinghurst sDrewth 13:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

The stop was in the page above. Do you mean tht we can't add new translations and categorize many of them ? verdy_p (talk) 13:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Note that the unjustified emergency by Nemo above was cancelled. He had even recorrected the same things I did on "his" page... He was frustrated may be but I did not do naything wrong in that page (except renameing it with a prefix only because the parent page was renamed too, but I accept this reversal by Nemo, as long as he does not break that page again by forgetting things).

Categorization and translations are a general "do-it" request already in Meta. There are lots of things to do (without creating also havoc in categories overpopulated by these translations that are now sorted by language and easily managed from one parent category managing all the translated ones at once). verdy_p (talk) 13:56, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Note that anyone can edit in the Translate namespace, you just have to fill in a translation proposed or correct them. This does not require any admin privilege. verdy_p (talk) 13:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

There is concerns about the edits/happenings, and until it is resolved, stop editing in the translation namespace. It is not my area of expertise, so all I can ask is that I want to see it resolved by discussion and consensus at Meta talk:Babylon before further editing is done. Whether you think it is justified or not is irrelevant, you were asked to stop, which to me seems is a clear demonstration of a lack of consensus in what is occurring. When you are in a hole, stop digging.  — billinghurst sDrewth 14:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

What's wrong with editing in the translation namespace? Anyone can do it, and adding translations cannot hurt. PiRSquared17 (talk) 06:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A far as I know, there has been still NO discussion in Babylon about that, Nemo should have posted something there, but did not. His requests was denied, so the only discussion occurs here. But Nemo does not communicate here. verdy_p (talk) 14:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You cannot just say to someone to stop doing anything (that is completely open to others) and also without any idea of until when, without discussing the issue, if there's one. Nemo has not published anything in Babylon because he would have difficulties to justify his own errors (when in fact he was himself in error or thought I had made errors, and incorrectly attempted to corrected the,; then performed exactly the same kind of changes I had already done !). Proof of Nemo's error: diff where he says in the edit comment "can't believe it" (even if I've told him that he was wrong, in fact he did not verify that I was effectively right about the broken link!), see then the next version, and finally he admits it, and prefers using another related page on the same page, but the one I had proposed was still correct (it is a more descriptive page, than the link he finally added).

I'm still waiting for arguments saying why someone asks to stop. If there's an issue with translations, he can post it on Babylon, yes... but now there's NOTHING there.

Wikimedia is not a space where anyone can unilaterally give orders without discussing them with others and exposing his problems. Even if this order comes from you or Nemo, we need to know what is really going wrong. Otherwise with an unknown issue, there will be no way to correct it, notably if the opponents don't reveal their reasons. verdy_p (talk) 14:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Unblock templates

I reverted your edits to the following templates:

• {{unblock}}
• {{unblock declined}}
• {{unblock granted}}

because they did not work properly. They displayed "No reason given" even if a 1= and 2= parameter were passed. This might be a problem with TNT. PiRSquared17 (talk) 06:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this. PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

It was not easy to find the bug, sometimes we need time to see what should have been evident. verdy_p (talk) 16:09, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Brasilian TNT ?

Sabia que TNT no Brasil parece o nome de um canal de televisão. O:-) -- the previous unsigned message was posted by User:Amgauna on 10 February 2014 at 21:48 (UTC)

We don't care about that. TNT means "translatable template", but before that it means trinitrotoluene, and is a common explosive, long before it designates some Brasilian TV channel (taking the name of the explosive), or the French national system for "Numeric TV broadcasting" (Télévision Numérique Terrestre) deployed since several years everywhere (analog TV broadcast has been shutdown), or a company name in France for express delivery. There's no property right attached to the 3 letters alone. verdy_p (talk) 21:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Legal a sua explicação. Você já jantou? Eu vou jantar agora.  :-) -- unsigned message by User:Amgauna on 10 February 2014 at 22:00‎ (UTC)

Stop sending unsigned messages, terminate them with 4 titles (~~~~). And stop deleting contents on other users' pages. Your messages here have no value. Thanks. verdy_p (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

eu estou tão faminta que eu já esqueci como se assina.  :-)

Go eating, there's never a priority to be on Wikimedia. At least it wuill give you time to think. Unlike you I took the tile for my diner, and coul have a time as well for a coffea and a documentary film and a political show on TV; plus calls to my family, even if I was not far away. verdy_p (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Ué? Agora entendeu o que eu falei? Milagre.  :-) Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 00:01, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Bom dia. Sabe, até ontem, eu tinha certeza absoluta que o senhor era um robô e não entendia nada do que eu falava.  :-) Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 11:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

A robot would have never made the actions I did. And cleanrly my activity here and my home page states that I'm not a bot, and my use page is here since so long that you don't have any right to contest it.

A robot would also have never composed specific messages, changed wordings, it would have never corrected its own typos like I did. Bits are never so "smart" to adpt to the user to whcih they speak or to the context. verdy_p (talk) 11:48, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it was intended as a literal statement. :-) PiRSquared17 (talk) 11:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I interpret it litterally because until now I thought that Ana was really a robot, acting like a robot and not hearing anyone or undestanding anything we said. verdy_p (talk) 11:59, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Era um robô sim, risos, eu perguntava ou falava algo ao senhor, e o que senhor escrevia não tinha nada haver com o que eu estava dizendo. Não tinha sentido o que eu lia de você. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 12:59, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Ontem eu esta brincando com o senhor, tentando descobrir se era humano ou um robô.  :-) Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 13:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Your "Lord" is "Google Translator": if it failed to translate what was valid English into meaningful Portuguese for you, stop listening this Lord. My sentences were perfectly meaningful, unlike yours that were ful of approximations and confusions. Don't blame me if Google Translator failed to give you what I (and others) were saying to you in English (well even when they spoke to you in Portuguese directly, you did not understand...).

Sorry, but I have not used your "Lord" to speak to you directly in Portuguese, I used plain English (I could have used as well plain French, but then there was the risk that your Lord first translates it incorrectly to English and adds more errors when translating this a second time to Portuguese). I was hoping that even if you use your "Lord", your claimed basic knowledge of English would correct the evident errors of your failing "Lord".

English is not my native tongue though, and my level for it remains simple enough to be understood more or less correctly by some translators.

I do not want to use hidden expressions with double meanings like what you are doing here in Portuguese : you should never use dual-level language when speaking to someone that does not talk to you in the same lanaguage and with the same level of practice.

I have read that your level of English was poor: this means that you should even avoid "translating" anything in Meta from English.

But if you ever do it (using your "Lord"), abstain completely from reverting any changes made by more experienced translators if they correct your submitted texts.

If my English words seem rude to you (and more if they are translated incorrectly by your "Lord"), it's just because they just reflect the basic facts or opinions in their basic meaning. verdy_p (talk) 13:17, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Eu amo o Google e a Microsoft desde 1991, antes era tudo em inglês, agora tem mais de 10 anos, eles traduziram tudo do inglês para o português aqui no Brasil, e eles criaram um tradutor automático que traduz tudo para mim online automático, já tem vários anos.
I love Google and Microsoft since 1991, before everything was in English, now has more than 10 years, they translated it from English into Portuguese here in Brazil, and they created an automatic translator that translates everything to me online automatic, already has several years. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 14:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

This automatic translation from Portuguese to English contains errors in verbs with incorrect subject ("now has more than 10 years": there's no subject, in English this means reuse the last subject which was the subject of "I love". Then there's a grammatical error because "I has more than 10 years" is clearly incorrect, and it is certainly NOT what you meant ! Google repeats the same error in "... already has several years". This is an evident proof' that Google Translator is NOT reliable, it gives you FALSE MEANING, but you are completely unable to detect it due to your too poor understanding of English and lack of knowledge of its basic grammar !!!). verdy_p (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

If everything was so perfect, there would no longer need of any Poriguese translation here. And even the Portuguese edition of Wikipedia would be deleted, because the English version would be enough !!!

Sorry to contradict you, but automatic translators will always be confused and produce incorrect interpretations. Use them with care only to have some idea about what is discussed, but in all cases you need to use your judgement, and in case of any doubt, look for other sources, or ask to an actual humane translator...

In all this story; there's always been one "bot" that you wanted to "test" against me: it is only your "Lord" (Google Translator) that you use automatically in your browser, can't you see that?

I'm not a bot, Google Translator is clearly one. And like all bots; it can fail, and it fails extremely frequently, much more often than all bots we actually use and authorize to operate on Wikimedia sites !

For this reason we need actual projects created by humane, reviewed/corrected by humanes, translated by humanes.

(Automatic translators are just fast intermediate helper tools, just like are other external dictionnaries: they provide only some good contexts within which the words may me used, but if you look into Google Translator you will immediately see that it chooses one possible version arbitrarily, but also proposes other versions when you hover your mouse over some translated parts:

the background turns yellow, and it links to other possible definitions or usages in other contexts; Google Translator cannot always make the correct choice between the alternatives, and it still ignores lots of other possible alternatives, often contradictory between each other !). verdy_p (talk) 14:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Eu não te entendo. As 3 ferramentas de tradução são boas e fáceis de usar. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 15:08, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

They are good only for you: above I show you that these tools are failing and producing wrong meaning, That's why we cannot rely on them and want actual translators here.

If these tools are good enough for you, then abstain completely from providing any translation in this wiki because we do NOT want what these tools already provide.

We want something better and without the false meanings generated by these tools. We absvolutely do not need that you copy-paste directly into MEta-Wiki what you or anyone else can already get with these tools activated in their web browser.

Those that love these tools do not need to "translate" anything here. They get false meanings, but don't realize that these meanings are wrong... Until an actual translators (that really understand' both languages) will provide an accurate version : false meanings is a severe problem when translting documents intended to be used by many people (much more than minor typos caused by missing keystrokes or plural marks....).

Also automatic translators can never use a coherent terminology (they use a generic terminology completely out the context, and switch freely from one term to another), and the result is too frequently confusive. This is a problem on this wiki because we discuss about things such as common policies, and decisions to be made, and we want to avoid moving people to the wrong place to discuss issues. On Wikimedia projects, each localized project has chosen some dedicated terms to be used coherently. But automatic translators will ignore them ! verdy_p (talk) 15:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Please Help

I notice you also deal with Ana Mercedes and found some problem, I think she has a problem with my translation and I still had no clue about her/his complain about my translation. see here.Ald™ (talk) 15:25, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I answered to your talk page. Ana is completely confused (and other users are also failing to explain here what NOT TO DO, but she continues to think that English words are correct in Portuguese translations. verdy_p (talk) 15:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Você estragou todas as categorias que eu fiz que eu traduzi naquela ferramenta de tradução, um monte de vezes.
You've ruined all categories that I did that I translated that translation tool, a lot of times. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 15:32, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely not, and other Portuguese translators have confirmed you were wrong because you wanted to insert English ro replace Portuguese words. Dont lie ! verdy_p (talk) 15:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Can I ask, What is her problem with my translations?Ald™ (talk) 15:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I absolutely don't know what is her problem with that. She is picking users randomly on this site, as soon as she sees that they are currently active within the list of "recent changes". (only using this tool means that she knows much more about how to use more advanced tools on this wikis, she has no excuse of doing that by error or not understanding; her own user page shows that she knows the technical details of wikis, but in fact she is extremely wrong when understanding basic English). We've never told to Wikiemdia users to come and use Google Translator here, we cant people that can understandard English (even if they use technical tools to help their work, they must be able to review the proposed things, and must not revert the work performed correctly by other true translators).

Did she revert one of your Indonesian translations ? I'll scrutinize at her activities in them, but if you can point things where your disagreee, please post the link to the diff... verdy_p (talk) 15:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

You is crazy. My language is portuguese. Your language is french. Ana Mercedes Gauna (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Insults ("crazy" you said) won't make you more trustable here.

Yes French is my native tongue, but I practice English every day of my life since many years, without major problems (without more errors than many native speakers). verdy_p (talk) 15:50, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Verdy I think you need to introduce her with someone who speak Portuguese and also understand how meta works, this kind of conversation will never work, and just ignoring her will resulting in her vandalizing meta.Ald™ (talk) 16:05, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Aldnon, I tried talking to her in Portuguese on her talk page, and DanielTom has also helped. I think Teles could too. PiRSquared17 (talk) 16:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

There's already one (Teles) that is attempting to convince here, but she continues speaking here; for various unrelated things. And also by talking to other people selected randomly like you Aldnonymous.

She plays a dangerous game and causes people lot of time losses as she does not hear and looks now for other people trying to support her position.

I'd like to ignore her messages but she reposts here constantly, or cites me in other talk pages. verdy_p (talk) 16:14, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Verd b practiced vandalism in almost all my translations already has several weeks  :-( -- (unsigned message posted by Ana)

You lie, Ana, I have kept almost all your work, except when you reverted Portuguese words back to English (and these words have been restored to Portuguese). verdy_p (talk) 16:16, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Ana, fixing translation is far from being able to be called vanadalism.Ald™ (talk) 16:19, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

He dad portuguese level 3 or 4 exists in him for he fix my Portuguese? No he is french and english.

I only reverted the initial word "Category:" that appears in titles back to "Categoria:" exactly like it is in Wikipedia and other Portuguese wikis.

I also dropped the "/pt-br" suffix which was no longer needed as soon as the title itself is translated (it has been just there as a prefill to build the category itself in some categories where we need one item to be filled so that the category is created. (but only in the title, but not in the description), remove red links on categories at the bottom of pages, so that translated articles are properly categorized.

I do not mark these as being fully translated, I expect these terms to be fully replaced by actual translations.

For simple cases, I reuse the translations already done in Portuguese Wikipedia, in order to be consistant with it, but in fact I have done it only on a few widely used languages (and without reverting the work of others like you did). verdy_p (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

@User:Verdy p Sorry for disturbing you again, she's complaining about you at my talk page (again), I am truly confused, I'm not even admin, why she reporting you to me? please at least talk to her, Thank you.--AldNon^Ucallin?☎ 13:11, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm also not an admin here, only a translation admin. She has picked you randomly, you are not concerned on this issue. Other admins know that you are disturbed by her as they monitor my page and her page and her actions on this wiki.

However I no longer want to discuss with her on this issue, the relay is passed to someone else to handle things with her directly in Portuguese. verdy_p (talk) 13:26, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I see, sorry for this, I will ignore her then.--AldNon^Ucallin?☎ 13:38, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Now she is active at "untranslating" things from Portuguese to English. Nothing to say, she's not just confused, she's constantly acting in a destructive way (at the beginning may be she did not understood, but clearly she has bever wanted to listen anyone (not just me). Patiently varous people are reverting everything what she "undoes", thinking that this won't be noticed and ignoring that we have pages in out watchlists (even when she's connected with an IP). Apparentyl it's the way for her to pass her time. We cannot discuss with her when she pretends not understanding things. Even her "translations" have lots of errors (e.g. she does not know the difference between Wikimedia and Wikipedia and refuses to see it). verdy_p (talk) 18:09, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Bonne nuit. Cette semaine le Seigneur m'a laissé avec le stress.  :-) Ana Gauna (talk) 01:22, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Translation of Trademark Policy

Salut verdy_p! Je tiens à vous remercier pour le travail formidable que vous avez fait sur ​​la traduction de la nouvelle politique de marque. Je tiens également à m'excuser à l'avance si les nouveaux modifications nuisent à votre travail louable, ou échouera sinon de communiquer les modifications apportées aux politiques que nous essayons à documenter. DRenaud (WMF) (talk) 23:55, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

FYI

Special:Diff/7545196. PiRSquared17 (talk) 19:55, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

TNT is not broken; but TNT cannot be self-recursed in subtemplates used on pages already translated with TNT (just like any other template).

See Template:TNTN for the best solution: do not expand the translated template in TNT itself, but just return its name, so that the expansion will occur externally (and during that expansion, TNT or TNTN may be used.

verdy_p (talk) 19:59, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Archive template bug fix

FYI, a small change to {{Archive box auto/layout}}. The tail {{{clear}}} was appearing when using the template here and my change got rid of it, but I'm not that experienced with templates so I'm not sure if I broke anything. Anyways, thanks for the work on the template. Miranche (talk) 06:11, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

In fact there should have been 2 pairs of braces, not 3 (there's never been a "clear" parameter name, thanks for signaling the issue. verdy_p (talk) 06:13, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Special:Diff/7594301/7594603

You removed (a) my comment (b) the user's signature. PiRSquared17 (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

No, there was absolutely no edit conflict when (a) I submitted it, and (b) I added the user signature myself by looking in the history (because the original user did not sign it himself)... Your reply was not there when I saved it... The server may have not detected the conflict and both edits, mine and yours passed. (mine immediately after yours and averwriting it). This still happens sometimes when edits are sent in extremely short period of times (the server does not schedule them correctly between separate frontend servers.

This is strange here because the delay between your answer and mine exceeded about 20 minutes.

Anyway I have fully restored your reply. verdy_p (talk) 13:14, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

No, the user did sign it, under a minute after it was originally posted (so the timestamp would be the same anyway). Not that it matters much. PiRSquared17 (talk) 13:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Only now, I can see his own signature, it was absolutely not visible when I checked it 20 minutes after (and I looked for this signature in the page history, which is normally not cached) !!! verdy_p (talk) 13:47, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I think there are still caching issues between frontends when they check for edit conflicts on the backend database, or frontends are currently not correctly synchronized. I've read that Wikimedia serves still do not use any time server (for mysterious performance issues that I've never met anywhere), and they expeirment difference of UTC time overflowing the tolerance delay whithin which the frontends will check for possible edit conflicts).

I know that SQL transactions in LAMP systems cannot warranty the integrity of transactions between servers to synchronize, if their local time is not correctly set within a frame not exceeding 5 minutes.

On Wikimedia servers, with the desactivation of synchronization with a time server (for a very minor performance impact on remote file systems), this is an old problem as servers frequently exceed 1 hour or more or differences (until an admin decides to shutfown a server from the network, adust its local time manually, then reboot it (and online users frequently see false alerts at top of windows that their own PCs have incorrect clock settings; and histories are also frequently displaying wrong times).

The desactivation of the system time client (SNTP or similar "Internet time" service) on these servers was made years ago, it may no longer be valid with existing Linux kernels implementing slow adjustments by progressive clock drifting for localtime (such time client is activated by default on Linux, Windows, MacOS, and all mobile OSes), and also implementing separate high performance clocks for measuring local performances in applications (but not for synchronizing with multiple remote servers without help of a central coordinator or without correct synchronization of local time on all servers).

verdy_p (talk) 13:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Just checking

After your understandable complaint about the IP, I don't want to annoy you by reworking comments, but I felt I had to do something to the "abstain" section at [6] to make the counting scheme work. It is possible though that I have erred in this counting, and if so, my apologies! Wnt (talk) 13:46, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, all vote countings for now are wrong if they are ever considered. Everything will need to be checked, by attributing comments to each one, and then looking for duplicates to ignore them in the counters.

But please do not add your comments at end of the same pararaphs written by others, as if you wrote them (you can only add their missing signature in those paragraphs, and if you want to reply, you should use a distinct indentation)

That's why I added the string warning at top of pages: users should sign their messages, to save work by others trying to follow the discussions. For now this page is a nightmare due to lack of attributions and LOTS of unsigned messages that need complex checking in the page history. verdy_p (talk) 13:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Ways to Give

Please don't overcomplicate the Ways to Give translation with formatting. That is all added with templates on wikimediafoundation.org. Peter Coombe (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 16:43, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I was matching what was on the donation site Yes things hae changed but the page on Meta should still be complete enough to be meaningful; even if the secure forms are hosted in the WMD site.

There's no complication for the translators as the formatting it hidden to them (and also matches the past translations for most of them)

verdy_p (talk) 16:48, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes the extension hides the formatting from translators, but having it makes the wikicode much more complicated and difficult to process for us. I think the messages are meaningful as is, and if there are bits that are unclear the best place to address that is in the documentation (which will be visible while translating). People can always look at the pages on wikimediafoundation.org too - I've added a link to there at the top of the page. Peter Coombe (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 17:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, with the notice at top, this is clearer for readers. I really thought that this page was not complete and made as an initial draft to enhance (also this was matching the page on Meta for 2012 also used in 2013).

Thanks for correcting also the old template displaying the former WMF address in LA CA, now in WA DC. verdy_p (talk) 17:24, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Template For

Hi, I want report that the Template:For you have edited, doesn't work.--Dega180 (talk) 13:29, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I know it and it was not working even before. I have attempted to correct it, but anyway it is definitely broken and extremely expensive. It should be completely rewritten without using the very old tricks of MediaWiki/ In most cases we don't even need it and its usage is rare! If one really wants it, it should be using a Lua module. At least with the "correction", it is no longer very costly on server resources even if it shows red links or some garbage (garbages were already displayed even before !). The existing pages remaining with it are also all obsolete and unmaintained since long. verdy_p (talk) 13:31, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia genealogy project

Please visit this page if you wish to contribute to a centralized discussion about a Wikimedia genealogy project. Thank you! --Another Believer (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Why this message ? verdy_p (talk) 10:22, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Program Evaluation Portal: Translation mark-up

Hey there Verdy p! Thank you for all your work you do in translation mark-up on our portal. There seems to be something going wrong with some recent translation mark-up though where it seems fine on the underlying page, but then the mark-up is visible on the front-facing page. Can you tell what is going wrong? JAnstee (WMF) (talk) 18:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually when one of the transcluded page started to be translated as well eitself this broke the parent page.

I've used TNTN for transcluding them correctly. (Note: TNTN is narly equivalent to TNT except that it does NOT expand the template itself, but it is expanded externally (this solves common problems with TNT when there are recursions of TNT, notably when a translated page transcludes a translated page or template.) verdy_p (talk) 21:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to say this problem is fixed on the page you indicated. verdy_p (talk) 21:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Template:Main

I'm getting output from this template as "Template loop detected: Template:Main/en". It doesn't seem to work anywhere. Techman224^Talk 05:47, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I know, and I've been searching why this loop occurs, still now without success (after looking for various solutions; I4ve delayed it because frequently, time can help make more obvious what was not evident; I still don't understand where the recursion actually occurs; a solution exists in some pages, that does not work in some others, without convincing reasons, but as this also depends on the fact that the template is used or not in a page using manual translation, or pages translated with the new Translate tool, this complicates the resolution: I've tried to autodetect the case, and still this does not work).

A minority of pages are using it anyway (and in fact this number is shrinking as this template was most often used for incorrect purpose,or not enough qualifying).

There are still legitimate uses but they tend to be rare.

I've not forgotten the issue, but it exists in pages that are more rarely used (and for now I don't case much about old archived pages which have not been maintained since long and that would require other works to make them display properly; there are lots to do before on actively maintained pages for which I have fixed most issues as I discover them).

Translating this wiki is a large task, sometimes it can be frustrating to see that some evolutions cannot be done without breaking some things temporarily. I try to avoid this situation for the most frequent cases, even if there remains exceptions, but it's not possible to do this task and advance without some of these caveats.

You can be sure that I've not forgotten this issue (even if it takes longer to resolve than what I initially expected). verdy_p (talk) 21:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for your efforts. @Techman224: The issue was recently reported here and I can see that Verdy p is still working to resolve it. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've identified at least two possible issues with Template:Main, but I haven't really enough experience to check the output of the code to make sure yet. The first is that Template:Translatable template name uses the |noshift= parameter which you disabled in this edit which changed it to the |translated= parameter name instead. The second is that User:FuzzyBot has updated Template:Main/en to reflect the source code which currently contains this interesting bit: {{ {{#if: {{{translated|}}} | Template:Main/layout | {{TNTN|Template:Main| uselang = {{{uselang|{{pagelang}}}}} }} }} The possible problem with this sort of code is that it seems to be calling "Template:Main/en" or perhaps "Template:Main/en/en" if the |translated= parameter happens to be empty, causing the recursion to produce an error. I hope this helps in debugging the template some more. Regards, TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:53, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

FuzzyBot is not a user, it is part of the Translate tool itself. You do not found anything that I was not already aware.

And no, the code you cite does NOT call "Template:Main/en/en"; TNTN is used here to find a translation for "Template:Main" and it will return "Template:Main/en" or "Template:Main:fr" or other language, according to the setting of the "uselang" parameter (whose default is the language code of the content of the current page. TNTN does not by itself call that template, it only returns its name to avoid the recursion, so on an English page using the Main template it only returns Template:Main/en.

The #if is there to help determine if template:Main is transcluded directly in another page (the "translated" variable s normally hidden and is part of the internal "magic"; there are other autotranslated templates using the same "magic" and it works perfectly). So when transcluing Template:Main, this parameter is not set; and the #if will then evaluate TNTN and the template to transclude (the outermost double braces) will be Template:Main/en). Now Template:Main/en is generated from the translation of Template:Main (with the translate tool) : we never use Template:Main/en directly in any article. But note that when the code above transcludes Tempalte:Main/en, it also sets the parameter translated, the #if will then evaluate Template:Main/layout; passing it again the parameter translated (not used); but also the translated texts in the other parameters of the outermost tranclusion.

Initially; Template:Main used TNT: this could not work at all because Main is also used/trancluded in other translated pages that have contents frequently transluded already by TNT. I created TNTN on purpose to avoid the self-recursion, because TNTN does not expand itself the translated template it has found, but ONLY returns its resolved full page name...

So you've not found anything new. The problem is clearly elsewhere (I've found that some internal tricks in MediaWiki have changed the way they handle some transclusions and expansions, and already fixed a lot of cases where this change of behavior caused code to break; this change occured in early February). I've been able to fix it everywhere, except in Template:Main for some reason I still cannot explain; for some reasons, it seems that some parameters get hidden/not passed by MediaWiki, which restricts some parameters depending on their context of use. The problem here is that Template:Main/en is transluded with the "translated" parameter set, but visibly, it is not set when Template:Main/en runs its code, so Template:Main/en will once again use TNTN to resolve Template:Main to "Template:Main/en" and then transclude it again. I cannot explain why the "translated" paramter is not passed to avoid this recursion, as this is the only way to check for it (you could renamed that parameter in Template:Main and then mark it again for translation so that the code is reflected in Template:Main/en, this does not change. That parameter is still ignored/discarded and I don't understand why this occurs specifically here. verdy_p (talk) 12:55, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I would like to note that I was aware that FuzzyBot is not a user and is part of the Translate extension. I hope this gets debugged soon though, if as you claim it was due to a change in the underlying MediaWiki code itself. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 09:38, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Would it be feasible to move TNT and TNTN and its ilk to Lua code to possibly handle these issues? TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 09:43, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

TNT and TNTN are already both supported internally by the same Lua Module (read the doc) ; these templates do not perform anything by themselves except passing the parameters to this module. The issue is not in the Lua module but somewhere else in the MediaWiki parser and the order of evaluation/expansion. verdy_p (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

For the record, the issue is effectively in MediaWiki, apparently the "#if" builtin parserfunction does not work the same as "#switch" for the expansion of its parameters, with regards to translate tags; or may be this is the translate extension hooks that does not behave ocirrectly with #if (but it works correctly with #switch, even though it is more complex to parse than #if). There are strange things in the Transalte extension by the fact it breaks the parsing rules of MediaWiki (which uses two distinct layers of lexical and grammatical analysis: one is based on source lines to detect some leading characters like equal sign, asterisk, colon and semicolon and space plus empty lines, plus an exception within tables adding the exclamation mark; the other layer is for counting and matching braces, brackets, quotes, and parsing comments and only this layer is hooked by the parser function trying o find some context to match possible transalte ids; in fact there's also an intermediate layer for (no)include and onlyinclude sections which also does not work properly with the Translate extension)

I suspect these problems come from the initial decision about the format transate ID markers, which was poorly chosen IMHO; the transalte id should have been an attribute added to the opening "translate" tag itself, without altering the number of newlines).

I can prove that the Translate extension does not parse "#if:" completely it "eats" too many characters. within its paramtersno notably in the (optional) 3rd one . verdy_p (talk) 06:39, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for feedback on my GSoC'14 proposal

Hi Verdy p,

I am planning to work on the project titled "Tools for mass migration of legacy translated wiki content" this summer under Google Summer of Code. I have drafted a proposal for the same over the past few weeks. This project is going to help the translation adminstrators like you in a great way, as it would completely automate the tedious manual task of preparing a page for translation and then importing the translations into the Translate extension. You can check the proposal page for detailed information on how I plan to accomplish this.

As you would be an end user of this tool, it would be great if you could go through the proposal and provide feedback/suggestions. Your feedback would definitely help me improve the proposal as well help in creating an even better tool. You can do the same on the discussion page of the proposal or reply here, whichever is convenient for you. I look forward to hearing from you! Thank you!

P.S: I need to submit the proposal to Google by March 19, 2014.

BPositive (talk) 13:12, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

New page for translation added to toolkit resource page

Hello Verdy p! I have added a wiki page to mark for on-wiki translation of the reporting line items contained in the templates. I wanted to give you the head's up since it is a change to the page's resources to ease their translation. Thanks for all your help! JAnstee (WMF) (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Please be mindful to avoid needless work for translators

Hi Verdy p, I have explained here why it does not make sense to make that message translatable. You say that "Meta can perfectly translate everything", but I ask you to consider whether it is actually necessary to add this message to the translators' tasks when that translation is not going to be read by the main audience anyway? Just because something *can* be made translatable doesn't mean that we should actually do so.

Regarding your statement that "Even translators may read another source language than English": Until Bugzilla:35489 is resolved, actually only people who can read English are able to contribute to translations, unfortunately.

This is also wrong. or yu misinterpret what I said. The page in question effectively has a source in English, but the message itself is not just given to translators. Translators will still see the English source of that message even if they translate it, other people will not read that Engliush message (and don't want to see it). You're confused about what Meta is, it is not the Wikimedia Blog (which is almost only English and very far from being so cooperative). If you wanted to post someting in English only, it should be asking for translators on the Blog itself to join their work on Meta. Meta is multilingual and restricting pages of Meta to English-only should be always avoided, as it splits the community into an inferior one (most readers on the worls) and a superior one (which can read English and translate it).

verdy_p (talk) 21:03, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

With all due respect, Philippe, I think it is you who is confused about the purpose of this page. As clearly stated in the page name itself, these are drafts intended for final publication on the blog, not standalone references. Take a look at Wikimedia Blog/Drafts - all these pages have been created and used in this way, just like Guillaume set up the present one. (Usually we also put a draft template on top, perhaps this should have been included here too to avoid confusion.) This process has been in place for almost two years and was used for several hundred posts, it enabled us to open up contributions to the blog and make the editorial process much more transparent. If you have suggestions for changing this process, I'm certainly open to hear them, but please make an effort to understand it first.

Regarding translations, these are work pages for translators, not something we send non-English readers to. So the concern that they are treated "inferior" is moot. Certainly we want to provide blog content in other languages than English, that was the very reason Guillaume marked this page for translation and I sent out a translation notification about it, promising translators that their work would be published on the blog (example).

Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 07:11, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I had also wanted to ask you not to invalidate existing translations by making cosmetic changes to the original (such as the edit to the links in T2 here and then marking the page for translation without ticking the "do not invalidate" checkboxes.

It's definitely NOT a cosmetic change: the "w:" prefix does not work on Wikimedia itself where the message will be delivered (this is a wellkwn fact learnt from Technical news...) so, your're wrong. And I had fixed the linked correctly so they work.

But you have forgotten to consider another wellknown sunchronization bug of the translation tool when reverting it. It was NOT possible to use "do not invalidate". verdy_p (talk) 20:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

"on Wikimedia itself where the message will be delivered" - not sure what you mean by "Wikimedia itself", but there were no plans to paste the full text on other wikis. (It's for a blog post, not for a MassMessage posting like the Tech Newsletter.)

Which synchronization bug (number)? I wasn't talking about the addition of a new translation unit (which I reverted), but the modifications of existing units (where a revert could not have undone the invalidation anyway, so I fixed those units by hand in several languages, as mentioned above).

Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 21:06, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Yesterday I had to spend quite some time going through several translations of this post to fix the effects of your actions - in case you are not aware, Bugzilla:58429 means that invalidated translations simply vanish from the view of the normal reader, and also in this case from the version exported to the blog.

I appreciate your work on the French translation, and if not for the invalidation effect, I would not at all have minded your formatting edits to the original. But please consider the points above.

Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 20:34, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

PS: I don't know about the login sessions issue you mention (my personal guess would be that invalid SSL certificates would have different effects). Perhaps file a bug on Bugzilla? Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 20:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Main (2)

Template:Main is broken, "Template loop detected:". Please improve it. I don't understad your way. --Kaganer (talk) 11:00, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I know, but nobody currently understands why it is broken, because the code looks perfectly correct and is similar to other translated templates. I know this is also not a bug of the translation module. There's some hidden magic somewhere in MediaWiki that affects only this template (possibly only because of its name?) and specific also to Meta-Wki. I've passed lot of time already to look for a solution without success. I've not forgotten the issue; I know that it affects some pages. However this number is decreasing because translated pages now avoid it and don't need it. I'm not convinced also that this template is so much useful because this is not the only element to translate in pages and its generated text is too short and not enough descriptive about the content of the target in places where it is used. May be I'll find a solution suddenly when I'll realize the issue, but for now and I unfortunately see no obvious solution.

This template used to wort with translations in the past, and stopped working at a time due to some changes somewhere in the dependant code but I've not been able to isolate when and where this occured, or if this is caused by a newly introduced limitation of MediaWiki's parser (all I can say is that this started bugging after an important change in the MetaWiki API for Lua modules in the way it passes parameters (I have already worked in solving almost all incompatibilities this change generated, and I have also introduced the TNTN template, instead of just TNT, to help resolve such loops): TNTN is now used here and should have solved the issue like everywhere else this API change impacted the rendering. I fear it is realated to a tricky case in the internal MediaWiki processing order; causing it to reparse the same content that has already been parsed). The template expansion step should never be recursive given the existing code. verdy_p (talk) 11:25, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I've found finally a workaround. It was difficult due to th existing "caching effects" caused by bugs in the Translated tool (which forces us to mark the same page multiple times) and the need to purge many page transclusions to see what really happens. And finally I've determined that this is caused by a very strange behavior of the Translate page parser when redering pages containing #if (a bug that does not occur with #switch... very strange) apparently due to the evaluation order in the parser which uses inconsistant order of expansions between builtin parser functions, template expansion and translate hook extensions and special extensions, and replacement of template parameters during the expansion (apparently this is highly dependant in the internal code of these extensions depending on whever they have tested the presence of a parameter before using it and expanding it. The order of expansions/evaluations of these extensions changes depending on each parameter for builtin functions (and this affects #if). So this is effectively a bug of the translate tool that still makes false assumptions about this order.

This was a nightmare to track. For some templates, the solution will be very tricky and there's a very strict order of things to do when using the Translate tool. Things would have been much less difficult to track without the wellknown bug where a new marked translation is not saved to reflect a change but needs to be marked again (but for marking a page a second ti,e we first need to make an edit in it and revert it; adding a single "neutral" spage does not always work as it still has a "caching effect" caused by the added or removed space; causing the code still to use an alternate path of execution).

And effectively this has a lot to do with a cange in the MediaWiki API : the interface to Lua has changed so that it is sometimes hooked inconsistantly depending on where the MediaWiki API is used elsewhere in the code.

Anyway, my workaround now works (I hope it will be stable). verdy_p (talk) 14:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! It's worked. --Kaganer (talk) 21:26, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Table background colors

• pt:Anexo:Tabela_de_cores
• pt:Anexo:Lista de cores

-- this unsigned message was sent by Amgauna, on 29 April 2014, 04:27 (UTC).

What do you want I do with that ? And why don't you sign your messages ?

Note that your pages are listing color names, most of them being non standard for HTML or MediaWiki, also in Portuguese and unrelated to the page I was completing (which does not list any name). verdy_p (talk) 04:45, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Look the Code Hexadecimal = standard HTML and CSS

-- this unsigned message was sent by Amgauna, on 29 April 2014, 04:52 (UTC).

The purpose is was just to present the full gamut and if we do or don't need 4 or 6 digits of precision for colors (in order to simplify the life of users creating/editing wiki code).

Ordering by name mixes everything and is not used at all for the same purpose.

Names would not add any value to the presented gamut when the page is about the sRGB codidication, and color spaces.

And as I said, most of the listed names in your page are absolutely NOT standard and NOT supported across wikis, languages, projects, and MediaWiki itself; these names are highly specific to cultures and versions of softwares

(so they are out of topic on Meta); no need to duplicate a Portuguese Wikipedia page here. verdy_p (talk) 04:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Forget the names of colors.

The hexadecimal code is running in Mediawiki pages.

I was coloring my user page using hexadecimal code I saw you looking colors, just wanted to help.

I'll sleep. Good night. Ana Gauna (talk) 05:08, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't need help about color values. Thanks. verdy_p (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok.  :-)

Training page templates

Hi Verdy P. I've been working with Sage and Guillaume to fork the training templates. We're trying to create a version free of translation markup for porting to other wikis for use in the education program and will continue to use the translatable version for the program evaluation trainings here on Meta. Thank you so much for your help! Anna Koval (WMF) (talk) 15:38, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh well... Now the translations are impossible to do. I don't understand why you need to fork, everything was in the Project: namespace, I had kept that.

Why do you want to fork it at the same place when Trainings are all supposed to be translated and not tarketting only the Englush public (that need much less training than others)?

Those templates were already ready, translations was ongoing on the content of training themselves. Yes I know they were not finished; but if I look at any translations they now link pages to the English-only version with the non translated templates (you've moved the translated ones outside the Project: namespace, they're no longer referenced).

verdy_p (talk) 15:44, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

The intention with the education trainings is to translate them after porting, since they will also need to be customized for each language version of Wikipedia to reflect the local rules and norms. Leaving the translation infrastructure would require that users deal with the TNT template and Lua module on their own wiki, and adding the TNT template and additional changes to every single training page, which adds an unnecessary layer of complexity.

No: porting to translation comes first (after initial writing), then they are translated; it is still possible to export a translation by selecting the per language subpages, which are already categorized per language.

Even on a single-language wiki that does not want the TNT machinery, all that is needed is to import the, without the selected /language suffix (including the used templates). Most wkis still have the "Special:MyLanguage/" extension (even major wikipedias have it, because they have some "embassies" in a multilingual project portal to give support to some pther languages in discussion areas; even if the core content is monolingual) ; and in fact I can expect that trainings will be on wikis that support them; and most of them will support some multilingual mechanism, don't you think so ?

However due to the new fork you dee, I need to do something for the coexistence: translated pages will use translated templates (now in "Template:" after your move), and pages still not translated will use the non translated templates (in "Project:"). I'll try to adapt. But for maintenance, I still think that now the non-translated "Project:<templatename>"should just be a redirect to "Template:<templatename>/en", i.e. the translatable source version marked for translation and cleaned from markup for English (this is a possible coexistence). verdy_p (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

They are not meant to be used by learners on Meta, they just live on Meta to make the porting process easier. We're working on cleaning every thing up so that both the education trainings and the program evaluation trainings will work.

Meta offers the multilingual infrastructure for many translations, it is the appropriate place for preparing them, even if they are later exported to another monolingual wiki (but I wonder why; these should work directly on Meta; evn if you put them on Outreach or Commons or Strategy, they should not be restricted to English there and woumd also need the multilingual functionality. In fact the best palces for trainings is on a multilingual wiki; not in Wikipedia as they are not encyclopedic contents; but Meta is best suited for bringing translators and benefit from the translation memory, than small wikis like Outreach, Strategy, or temparory wikis like Wikimania 2014... Commons may host them but most trainings are not in its content focus, and there are still few transators there becaus it has almost no text except categories and minimalist galeries, the rest being discussions never meant to be translated). verdy_p (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

(Neither was working previously, except for the few pages that had been updated with TNT.) --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I', sorry about that, but before this can be done extensively everywhere without repeating the work the basuc infrastructure needs to ba developed and tested on less pages. Due to the existing design within any separate pages/subpages, it was difficult to find a way to have so,ething that works in a ,ulitlingual environment. I have just fixed the last issues recently by completing one module (for students) and testing it for French and Arabic; other modules are now easier to adapt. And if you still need a monolingual version, it is still there with the "/lang" subpages (that contain NO translation markup at all), all within the same "/lang" category.

Note that your fork has even broken fixes in base categories (in fact it has just reverted everything, as if nothing had been done at all for preparing translations). verdy_p (talk) 16:57, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks trying to sort this out with us. One of the things we were trying to fix is that all the language subpages were not working with the forward/backward arrows from the /footer template. (It was a mistake for me not to fork these templates in the first place when User:EGalvez (WMF) starting building the program evaluation learning modules). I suggest that we try to get translation working properly on the first few pages of that, such as Grants:Evaluation/Learning modules/2Program Evaluation Basics Training Overview.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

In fact even before you starting forking, this was already working' with translations (I had fully successed the first translation module in Wikipedia tranining for students and was already working on fixing the index pages; this was also already working in the mini, example training..., it was ALSO workingin the first module of the Program Evaluation Basics; even if now it no longer works only because of the reverse without notice; and inconsistency that it creates with the old versions !!! before continuing the test one the first module of a couple other trainings to see that it was already working, then I wanted to finish the existing training when you reverted everything after hours spent searching for solutions and fixing various issues).

So I have followed your suggestion so that header/footer templates can continue working as monolingual as long as they are not prepared for translation, but then transparently migrate to the translated version without duplucating the work. This should facilitate the migrations without needing any massive revert of everything.

So for this, the few templates are now exising in two version, but most pages of the training will continue being translatable, as they were. The only issue was that training pages that were imported but still not prepared with TNT and other markup, were not working correctly. Now, translation can be made progressively without breaking everything during a task that may be long to do (all translations require some basic test at least in one language, plus one dummy translation of the page title at least for a RTL language like Arabic or Hebrew to check the page layout).

I understand better the issue, but the full reverts of everything was certaintly not not necessary, translating is a lengthy task, and preparing for translation is also a lot of work which cannot be working instantaneously.

Thanks for consideration of my difficult work, I know there may be issues, but it's best to find ways and discuss how to solve them, than just reverting everything without discussion.

But once the preparation is fully done and tested for one language, and layout tested with a RTL language, it is then very easy (and fast) to adapt this to all other languages (and many users an contribute to that, not just a few translate admins). verdy_p (talk) 19:50, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

The reason I suggested that Anna delete the translation pages was because they currently are not working. See for example: Meta:Training/For_students/Welcome/en.

The navigation links in the footer do not work. (Compare the bottom of the page to Meta:Training/For_students/Welcome, where the arrow links do work properly.) --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I insist: especially on this page, which I tested extensively: it was really working completely; the navigation worked as intended to the next page, in the current language.... until you start juggling with templates and broke them more and more by reverting things massively. You're the one that caused the more sever havoc. verdy_p (talk) 23:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I see that it is currently working on the first pages of the program evaluations trainings that you were updating today. Thanks! (The page I linked was not working for me yesterday before we started changing things, but I think you were closer than I realized to making it work when Anna and I started discussing forking the templates.)--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 03:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find a way to make these links work with translations enabled, which is why I thought they should be deleted for the time being while we work out the issues using the forked versions of the templates and the set of training pages at Grants:Evaluation/Learning modules. I don't understand the reason for trying to translate the education trainings on Meta anyway (as opposed to the evaluation ones, which are meant to be both used and translated on Meta). --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

These Trainings will never be translated if they are hosted on a monolingual site (because of the lack of a translation memory). Very few wikis are suitable for this: Meta-Wiki (including for cooperation between Wikipedia projects, but also because these training also concern Commons and general Wikimedia policies), or Commons (only for media, trainings don't go much there and in fact translations is not a major focus there as the content if for media files, and possibly archiving pages rendered as PDF or screenshots or for audio records of these trainings). Chapter wikis are dispersed and not all ,anages by the Foundation and not all accessible; so multiple language translations with common solutions and common translation memory won't work for chapters. This is the same issue with the internal WMF site due to lack of local participation (as the access is simply closed). Only one other wiki is suitable: MediaWiki.org (but for trainings not related to Wikimedia processes and policies, or Wikimedia sites). The MW site anyway uses a very simplified design as it has to be deliverable with a stable and self-contained documentation not limiting the independant development of new wikis (that's why it should remain in its "Help:" namespace and nohere else). verdy_p (talk) 23:36, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

They've been ported and translated several times already, on some of the Wikipedias with active education programs. See https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q14173931#sitelinks-wikipedia . These education program trainings are not typical content for translation; they are just intended as a starting point and framework for each wiki that ports them to customize them for their own needs.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 03:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

If you can figure out a good way to get those footer links working again, then it will be okay for now, but I still think that we should try to minimize the complexity of all the pages linked from Meta:Training/Meta, to make the templates easy to work with after porting, even for users who don't understand the details of the Translate extension. --Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It is not needed to underdtand the Translate extension to translate pages. But preparing pages for translation do require understanding it, this is not a surprise.

What this means is that users may create content in whatever language they want, trnaslate admins will prepare them (doing at least one full translation to test the behavior, as I have always done: I don't just submit the English page without testing immediatetely and without seeing if it's effectively translatable), any translators will translate them later.

Once a page has been prepared, it is updatable by any user, but it won't break the transaltions (and not even the /en version which is stabilized), but all they have to do is to keep the TNT(N) templates used (whch are not so complicated, and in most cases if they want to add more training pages, they'll copy-paste an existing one to replace the text (they wil lalso see immediatzly what is translatable or what is need because the preparation is markup already there.

If the training must then be exported, all that is needed is to have a TNTN template somewhere. Even if there's no module loaded for it, it can just return its own parameter and it will work (other parameters are there to select specific languages, but this won't be needed on a monolingual site). But now that there are templates mixed by you between the "Template:" namespace and the "Project:" namespace things are even more complicated now than they were. verdy_p (talk) 23:23, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I think I'm beginning to understand your vision for these pages. But until the translation setup is worked out, I strongly prefer keeping the education trainings in a fully working state. (Even then, I'm skeptical of whether it's worth the added complexity of requiring the TNTN template on every page, but I did not realize it could work without the module.)--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 03:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Rosetta barnstar

		The Meta-Wiki Rosetta barnstar 2013
		For being among the top 40 Meta-Wiki translators in 2013, with over 500 translation units edits! If I knew all the Wikimedia languages I'd also compliment you for how spot-on your translations are, but I must leave that to your language colleagues. :) Cheers, Nemo 21:45, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Privacy policy navigation

Hello Verdy p, I'm hoping you can help me with something. The images used in the Privacy policy navigation no longer link to the proper section on the page. I have tried, but I can't figure out what's wrong. Can you review your edits and see if you can get them working again? Thank you! heather walls (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

They are working for me. The links are going to the destinatin specified by parameters wikink1 to wikilink5. The template has not changed since 23 March 2014.

The Privacy page includes that template by specifying the destination as anchors (such as "#ĩntroduction") and in the Privacy page, these anchors are specified statically (not translatable) just before section headings (that are translatable). The anchors are inserted in the page by using {{Anchor|id-value}} (which is excluded from translation). These anchors must also be unique in the page (and different from the capitalized translatable section headings for which MediaWiki creates its own anchors, that why these anchors are defined using lowercase only id values; and only with basic ASCII characters and no spaces or punctuation why could break them and that are replaced by ASCII hyphens if needed).

It works on all translated versions of the Privacy Policy page I've been looking at.

However the template page itself (when viewing it directly) has never been able to link to another page (if this is what you are trying) because the template does not define itself the targets of the link. The template page itself also does not specify the text that is shown in these links: that text comes from the translation of the page.

In which translation language do you have problems ? Do you use an uncommon browsers that can't find anchors ?

Is this a problem of importing the translation of the page to another wiki where the template has been incorrectly modified, or anchors in the page have been incorrectly dropped ? On Meta thse links ar working properly., byt I suspect that you have slightly modifed the code of the privacy page on annother wiki (for example by splittng the page if so, the values given in parameter of wikilink1 to wikilink4 must be adpted, can you say me in which wiki this does not work ? (I suspect you are trying to modify it on the Foundation wiki that I cannot edit, but I may look at the code in readonly mode.

If you are trying to strealine the privacy page on another wiki make sure that the code contains elements witj anchors (they are specified as elements with the id="introduction" attribute for example the privacy page uses {{Anchor}} where appropriate, equivalent to an empty span with that id in attribute, MediaWiki should not remove that emty span due to the presence of the attribute).

If the links do not work in a specific language, please specify which one. It may be caused by an out of sync translation. And please indicate the source page where you are trying to insert the link of the template above.

Note also that for pointing to the privacy page from another page do not use the visible English text of sections, use the untranslatable id values specified in anchors!

verdy_p (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes the word links go to the proper area. It is also intended that when you click on an image that it works like an icon and goes to the same area as the word. This is not working for me on any language - is it working for you? heather walls (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok I have understood the problem, even if nothing was wrong for me. I have cleaned up some options in Template:IEG/Stacked link which were not working as expected (this template contains nothing to translate, it was failing in these cases since ever). verdy_p (talk) 08:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Could you please be a bit more careful? PiRSquared17 (talk) 10:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

About what ??? I was trying to fix the issue above, and I tested it, and I corrected it completely after that. The missing bracket was not the cause of the issue above, it occured after and I have already corrected it (your corrrction did not solve that issue; so you were not careful too). verdy_p (talk) 10:51, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not referring to the issue above, but rather to the fact that the images displayed wildly incorrectly for a few hours (they just diaplayed as {{#if:[[Image:foo.kpg|.... See Heather's talk page. And I'm not accusing you of anything. I was very careful, and my edits did solve the issue I knew of (namely, that the images were not even displaying). I was not even aware of this discussion here, and have not read it. PiRSquared17 (talk) 11:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you both so much for taking the time to look into the issues here. Those links were not failing since ever, something had changed recently. I'm so happy that the links are working again! heather walls (talk) 18:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Please stop working on pages related to Learning Patterns

The changes you've made in the past couple days are breaking the bot. The more changes you make, the longer it will take me to clean up the current mess. Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 16:30, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, for your reference: any changes you make to pattern profiles, like this one, are unnecessary. They will just be overwritten the next time GrantsBot runs; if you want to add an image to a pattern, add it to the "image" param in the pattern infobox. Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 16:32, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

For your information, the bot is broken when it parses pages. It broke a summary on its first line due to te presence of a link (it just finds the first pipe but does not properly detect pipes used as parameter separators). This is what I fixed because the page was broken and my edit fixed that by mobing the link outside the sumary to the main content of the page.

It's not my fault of the bot is broken there ! verdy_p (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

And note: the image IS REALLY in the page, but the bot does not use it... This is a bug of the Bot. But as you have noticed my edit, you should have analyzed it better. My edits are definitely not the cause of these bugs.

Personnaly I dnd your bit compeltely anticollaboratitve, not documented, not maintained, impossible to discuss, and it continues maing many false assumptions and complicates a lot the evolution of these pages. Thnigs can never be corrected, even when signaled. I have tried to work with some of these limitations, maing many tests; but even then it continues overwriting pages with bugs. verdy_p (talk) 16:48, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Many of the problems we are facing right now, and have faced previously, would be solved if you discussed your planned changes before you implemented them. Your reconfigurations of page layouts and page templates within the Evaluation portal and the IdeaLab have frequently broken things,

That's false; I have passed much time fixing many of these issues without introducing real new features. Many of these problems were caused by existing bugs (bad CSS, msmatched tags, and so on). I respect your work and absolutely don't want to break it. But I am convinced that I have not introduced new concepts, I have repected all your design, and passsed much time truing to fix them. verdy_p (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

and it is usually difficult for me and others to understand what you have done, let alone fix the bugs that are introduced by your edits.

I repeat, there's no bug in what I wrote, the bugs were already existing before my edits, and I have fixed many of them. Read above: these bugs are definitely NOT mine, they are in thr Bot itself and the contet it generates.verdy_p (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your work as an editor and translator very much, but I often find your insistence on re-designing portals and templates according to your own specifications to be very disruptive. Could we please talk about what you want to do, why you want to do it, and at least try to figure out how it can be accomplished within the existing framework that Heather and I have developed before you continue to move pages, template-ize new content, radically redesign existing templates, and attempt to overwrite GrantsBot's edits? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 17:10, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

You are very agressive and simply don't consider the many bugs I have constantly fixed and I have to live a bit with some of your current design, but if you really want collaboration, please create first a place where this discussions and can occur. My talk page is not the place for that. Reread more carefuly what I did, and look at the real history.

I have just fixed another bug that was preexisting in the Events page, where there were mismatched/unlcosed tags in the page itself. verdy_p (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: I expected that sometime you would come to discuss with me, but did not expect it would be so harsh. You are not required to work alone on these pages and it is clear even in your design that you wanted these pages to be translated, and most of my work was trying to fix everything that did not already work. There are certainly more changes to do but basically I am convinced that your bit makes too many things, when in gfact it should never have to copy-paste contents (and should not publish any layout), when it should basically only update a few lists and may be update a few redirecting links (for numbered features, though they should also be all in a single list in a template listing the few ordered feature links).

Many things can be made in MediaWiki itself without even needing any bot. Bots are not intended to overwrite contents repeatedly; except if they are real frequent errors.

Meta-Wiki has no special privileges even for you working in the WMF staff. The WMF staff can still do what they want and discuss internally in the Foundation wiki or in their own user pages, but not on general content namespaces of Meta-Wiki which is a community site. Each time I have fixed things, I have tried to keep these simple as much as possible, and never deleted any concept designs or contents. I have respected your work with high vigilence, but some existing things that are already broken are difficult to fix. You should not feel outraged if I say you there are bugs in your design, everyone makes errors, and it is even easier to do them when there's noone working with you. You should accept help for things that you've not seen (errors are humane; no problem, we progress together).

I'd like to discuss more on the remaining with you, but please provide an accurate place showing what your bot does and how. Documenting your bot is certinaly difficult, and takes long time, But I have also discovered things your bot does only by accident and taken them into account and adding some documentations or comments in a few problematic places where I hoped they would be visible.

It is difficult to work also when you frequently forget to categorize your pages to make sure they are all listed and easy to track for possible changes.

Also other WMF members have also approved my changes. This is not a problem, Wikimedia is a collaborative project, including for the WMF paid staff that provides extremely valuable resource (notably for more permanent maintenance... and timely responses to reported problems, if and when they are reported). Basically the staff is a helper for projects; it has to make some creative designs, but its goal is not to replace the independant community which can also innovate and find some easier, faster and more efficient ways to work together. The staff may initiate things that the community will take in charge later. The same applies to the ideas funded by the Foundation: they give a kickstart in order to allow more people to contribute later. My edits were perfectly aligned with the Wikimedia goals and strategies, byt reducing the technical requirements for most contributors (even if it may complicate your own isolate work). verdy_p (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty familiar with how Wikipedia works, Verdy_p. I am going to attempt to fix what is currently broken with the IdeaLab and the Evaluation Portal now. I respectfully ask you to hold off on further edits to the Idealab and Evaluation portal, and their respective templates and categories, for at least 24 hours. Are you willing to do that? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 17:58, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what is broken now, because you don't provide any sample; I perform so many tests that you should be aware that I really make lots efforts in finding as soon as possible if a change causes breaks, but if there are places I have not checked they are in mysterious pages not linked and not categorized that I only find by accident (this should not happen if these pages were properly categorized; things would be adapted much faster without being forgotten because only you know where they are).

Be sure that I uses lots of tests, visualisation, I test all pages prepared for translations by translating them and seeing the problems. I also frequently have to update the trnaslation stastitics (because I know the current limitation of the Translate tool that requires marking each page twice, and the second time with a null edit like adding/removing the space before the slash in the "<languages/>" tag).

Can you provide a sample that I have modified and that really breaks things when in fact the error was not already in your own code ? verdy_p (talk) 18:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Translation request

Verdy p, might you be willing to translate the main Wiki Loves Pride page at English Wikipedia into French? Wikimedia LGBT is organizing a global campaign called Wiki Loves Pride, which will be held in June. I speak only English, but ideally, there will be similar project pages at Wikipedias of other languages. This will allow collaboration, discussion and the ability to organize events in languages other than English. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your consideration. --Another Believer (talk) 15:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Moving Evaluation portal

Hello User:Verdy p! Thanks so much for your continued work on the Evaluation portal. We wanted to let you know that we will be moving the Evaluation portal over to the Grants namespace next Tuesday, May 27th and we are working to make sure all bots, templates, etc. are prepped for the move. Please let us know if you have questions/concerns/comments. Thanks so much! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 19:25, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your help with the post-migration cleanup. Especially for fixing links and redirects, and moving orphaned pages. Cheers, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 20:21, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I have found everything, because even before the move, you had removed some tracking categories.

What was hard to follow was the multiple renames you did, leaving double/triple/quadruple redirects finally foing nowhere after the moves of translated did not leave any redirect at all. I had to study the page histories to look for comments left by the Translate tool which forgets to create redirects when it moves pages.

And as I was expecting that you would continue some more page moves, I have edited most links going via redirects to fo directly to the current location (leaving no use of the redirects, except possibly from other wikis : I restored a few of them because I saw pages on Commons or MediaWiki no longer working and I cannot check hundreds of wikis, I'm not a bot. Bots will correct themselves other wikis to update their links to redirects on Meta, but they can do it only if the links still resolve somewhere on Meta). All the remaining redirect pages should now go directly to the current page, remaining only as old aliases (I have not deleted anyone, I cannot do that).

The most complex was to look for specific uses in templates. But all pages are still not updated in Learning patterns where navigation and category links are generated by some templates. I've made the first one, and basically you need to fix the "base=Programs:Evalaution portal/..." to "base=Grants:Evaluation/..." in the top and bottom navigation templates. I have fixed the index pages too. And restored their translatability and navigatability (note that when I introduced the base= parameter, the intent was to fix broken links in translations, but also for some existing pages that did not use the same naming conventions).

But the format of infividual pages for learning patterns would merit a simplification using smarter templates (for example the namespace could be infered from the current page) to minimize the maintenace work and their current naming convention is simply horrible (and I don't see the interest of the leading digit glued uglily to the subpage name (The resulting page titles are clearly overlong with unnecessary two levels of subpages; adding cost to the maintenance and for translators). verdy_p (talk) 06:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Learning pattern page migration

Hi Verdy_p. Please stop making changes to the stuff I just moved. I moved it for a reason.

"I moved it for a reason" is definitely not a good reason when you dont explain anything (not even to other WMF members that also don't understand why you break so many things and visibly work alone), and create a situation where not only you don't solve any pronlem but add more !!!!

I had to move them ahead of the rest of the Evaluation Portal migration because Jessie Wild is giving a talk about Learning Patterns this weekend, and I wanted to make sure that the bot was able to keep the pattern list updated during the course of the weekend, so that everything went as expected if people decided to explore the pattern library or to create new patterns after hearing her talk. I was preparing a detailed explanation for you, on this talk page, when I saw that you were already making new changes. Again, please stop. Until I have a chance to do my work, you risk wasting both of our time. Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 23:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

You've written above exactly the opposite: I have not moved any content, only you have moved things all around and nothing works now, all links are going to random places or nowhere, I see red links everything. (see message above from EGalvez, with who, you should coordinate).

Really, I don't understand your desire to delete everything when everything you do is constantly worse (really!!!) than before.

If you were not working in the WMF, I would consider your edits as clear vandalism. verdy_p (talk) 23:54, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I personnally attempt to collect everything you for forget constantly to make sure all the content will remain accesible.

Your bot DOES NOT need to do things the bad way it currently performs. Its rile would just be to maintain a list of things. It whould never rewrite pages completely, leaving garbages everywhere

Please separate what is translatable in a translatable template that your bit MUST NOT rewrite. Instead it can just transclude that template (or subpages, I don't care if it's in the Template namespace or elsewhere).

But basically you bot only has to maintain a page of lists of subpage names to order these lists. It does too many things, without thinking. It has made much worse for these pages than everyone, and you have never documented it, or made its source visible for others to inspect what it really does and you don"t want to correct.

Once again, if you were not working in the WMF, I would have called admins to stop your bot for clear lack of maintenance and reusal to explain what it does and for repeatedly deleting content.

Sorry to say that to you JMorgan, but I (and others) don't like your "work" that I consider really bad and even harmful for this wiki; you've caused lossses of time to everyone. verdy_p (talk) 00:08, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't appreciate your accusations or your insulting edit comments, Verdy_p.

There's absolutely no "insult" in my comments or here. These are effective statements about things you constantly do and never work or work worse than before. You don't solve anythng but add more troubles. verdy_p (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

All pages for the Learning Pattern library are now in the Grants namespace, and i have created new pages to stand in for the ones which were not working (both before and after the move). Grants:Learning_patterns can now be updated by the bot, and people can create new patterns through that page. Much of this content will be added back into translation, but that needs to happen after this weekend because of Jessie's presentation. If something breaks between now and then, I won't be around to fix it. Please refrain from making any additional edits to the following pages until after the weekend, and ideally until after we have discussed the potential impacts of those changes:

• Grants:Learning_patterns
• Grants:Learning_patterns/Categories
• Grants:Learning_patterns/Introduction/Editintro
• Grants:Learning_patterns/Introduction/Preload
• Template:Learning_patterns/Button

Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 00:13, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

You are never here when people need you. You just say to others "stop" (last time you saif but then hours but you've left stale pages for more than one week and constantly broke them more and more.

Really I consider you have asolutely no idea of where you are going to, you work alone have no plan, don't discuss with other WMF staff, and don't discuss in fact with anyone.

Eveything you've done in these last weeks has just been destructive, and was about accusing me (to other WMF staff) of breaking things that you only had broken yourself (you've not even able to revert things correctly or check the effects of these reverts. In summary you make a bad work here in Meta which is cooperative. Do that work if you want on the Foundation wiki, but Meta needs to work differently (and translation is not an option you can freely delete when you want).

I have left you continue for more than one week I saw how this become worse and worse. I could not resit at fixing only one page that you had left completely non functional because of your negligence.

It's simply i,possible to work with you this way, because you don't explain what you do (even after facts), and don't correct anything. I have wanted to help you, but other people with who, I have discussed also don't understand where you are going and why you are so destructive. you have not given any good reason. In fact the "potental impacts of these changes" are effective bad impacts of your changes (because you have no plan for what you want to do, and even don't want to changes things with more granularily, as I did fixing things piece by piece and collecting eveything you constantly forget to document)

My edits are certainly better thought, they don't change the existing structure even if it is bad, they correct more things than what you do wheich breaks things much more.

I even think that you don't undertand anything about how a wiki work (sic!!!) Why are you amplyed by the WMF ??? I have serious doubts about your competence in your job position (o this job should better be outside public wikis like this one). This wiki is NOT a private wiki you can manage yourself in your corner. You've not understood the mission.

And it's simply not acceptable that you order others to keep it protected for you only, for several weeks (already 4 weeks now that you dod a bad job). You don't own this wiki and I will militate now to remove your right of using your unmaintained bot (this wiki can live better without it; you bot causes more time to be lost than being saved)

verdy_p (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel like I have been accusing you of breaking things, Verdy_p. My intention was to get you to stop editing certain pages, or making certain types of edits to those pages, temporarily so that I could figure out why certain pages had become broken. I didn't intend to assign blame, and I apologize if it came across that way. I believe that when things that you and I both work on "break" (templates not displaying correctly, pages being overwritten by GrantsBot, etc) that it is the result of unintended consequences and a lack of communication, not malice or ineptitude. It's just that the problems we encounter never got resolved to either of our satisfaction, and so they just keep cropping up again. Since your work and mine are likely to continue to overlap, I believe it is imperative that we communicate better with each other. I will make an effort to communicate my intentions and my rationale better, both before I do stuff that might impact your work, and after. As a start, I have documented GrantsBot's tasks, and the pages these tasks affect, here.

I'm pretty easy to get ahold of. I hang out on IRC a lot, and respond promptly to talk page posts and Notifications. You may also email me at the address listed on my talk page, if you prefer. If you would rather use an on-wiki space other than our personal talk pages (or GrantsBot's talk page) as a central forum for discussion on GrantsBot, Grants portal design, or to coordinate our work making more Grants content translatable, I'm open to suggestions and also happy to set up something new.

GrantsBot isn't going anywhere, neither are you, and neither am I. We could probably both get more done, with less frustration, if we worked together more closely. We might even be able to bring more attention to the unresolved bugs and other problematic aspects of the translation extension, which you and I know more about than most people do, by now. I have some other ideas and suggestions for things we could work on and ways we could work better, but I'd also like to hear what you have to say about all this. Cheers, Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 04:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Help with learning modules

Hi Verdy p! I was wondering if you could give me some pointers about how to remove the translation tags in the learning modules. You can see that they are visible in the learning modules only when the page is transcluded. I looked at your conversation with Sage above, but I was unable to follow it since you are both more advanced with the translation mark up than I am. I am happy to help in any way that I can. Thanks so much! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

This is a work in progress. I've recently found a way to use antimatic translation of templates or inclusions without having to choose where and when to use TNT or TNTN : they can now be involked automatically where available, and still you can transclude the templates with TNT or TNTN or without them and still benegit from translations.

There's a basic example in Template:Main that shows how to do that autodetection, it just requires switching (with #switch, not with #if which has a bug in MediaWiki) on a translated empty tvar to see of the page is transcluded directly, or via TNT(N) or via one of the translated subpages. And there's no longer any cyclic recurrence that cause pages to break, and no longer any visible translate tag when TNT(N) is missing.

For small templates this method can work directly in them, but the system can also use a /layout subtemplate. The system also benefits from the translation memory.

So this mximizes the reusability and allows progresses without blocking on pages still not translated or still not fully prepared. This also simplifies the documentation because no change is needed in pages transcluding translatable templates.

But more generally I think that TNT should be avoided in favor of TNTN to resolve page names and find fallbacks, but not for actually expanding it directly in the Lua module (expansion of tempaltes within Lua are problematic and in addition it has performance problems compared to Wiki transclusion. So now I'll use TNTN only for resolving page names.

Note: I created the TNTN variant based on the same Lua module IT has helped fixing many issues. Everywhere I found it solves all problems of TNT and performs better (it saves about 25-50 milliseconds per transclusion,, reduces the number of expansion levels, reduces the number of parsed nodes. It also requires less workload on the server (Lua can be costly, because this language, which simplifies development of complex templates and that can aoid multiple expansions, still requires instantiating a VM and the code interpreted in Lua is still slower than MediaWiki templates using nuiltin parser functions.

I have not converted all uses of TNT to TNTN or "autotranslation by switching TNTN" (which is now the best method I've found). As long as things are working and no other problems are found in pages it would require lot of work. But my recent experiments show the improved performance and easier/faster submission of trnaslations by translators. The development model using layout subtemplates is also highly simplified. So this combines all advantages. Still most of the work is in marking pages for translations and making sure that translation units are not too large (to maximize the use of the translation memory and simpliy the reviewing process and accelerate the work of translators that can more easily detect changes if units are short.

For your query, I'll fix the places I discover in the index you give in example. It is not a complex case. verdy_p (talk) 18:06, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Strategic planning in all the languages

Hello, verdy:

Lovely to meat-see you again. What were you thinking of doing with cats like Category:Strategic planning/Translations and its subcats? I like the idea in spirit, but a) it would be better to have category names without slashes; and b) right now they are empty. Regards –SJ talk  04:11, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

All translations have slashes because this is the way the Trasalte extension defines them.

Then all of them are navigatable in their own language. All translations of a category are also sorted in a specific folder to collect them all together.

And no, they are definitely not empty (at least those that I have parametered please give an example !!!), but they fill up automatically when you transalte the "Categories group", and they are sorted automatically... verdy_p (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Template:Announce

Hello! Thanks for trying to correct the code, but your edits seem to have broken the dates completely (see archived copy). Could you please try to correct this? Also, please be a little more careful when editing such highly visible templates (FWIW, I've broken that kind of thing before, but I usually fix it immediately. That's what I get for forgetting to use "preview"...). PiRSquared17 (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to say that but I ma enough careful, as I had seen it immediately, I needed to view examples, and you replied immediately, too fast when I was about to reply to you. to explain the problem below.

But you also did not check yourself because you had not understood the problem more completely. You have attempted something that still cannot work without more changes. in other templates. verdy_p (talk) 05:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I admit I didn't really investigate it at all, and I didn't mean to "blame" that temporary problem on you. I also unprotected the template you needed to edit. PiRSquared17 (talk) 05:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The main problem is that LangSwitch is used incorrectly in you code: it matches the UI language and not the expected content language which depends on another parameter.

See the effect when viewing the main page in Japanese for example: you'll see French abreviations for the day number if the UI language is French.

The main pages however do not define themselves their content language and we need to track the language code to use (that's why the main pages are including templates that pass the language code expliitly, and then you need to track the uselang parameter (that LangSwitch supports: LangSwitch will use that parameter provided it is present and not empty, otherwise it uses the UI language, before resolving any fallbacks of these language code.

I am fixing this in the Announce template

verdy_p (talk) 02:49, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

This is fixed, but correct handling requires a modification in Template:Announce_Wikimedia (only template in the series which is blocked) to pass the lang parameter. Otherwise no language will be assumed. The UI language is wrong for this template. We need an explicit language parameter in all translated pages whose name does not exhibit its content language code (e.g. the translated versions of Main Page have no defined language code, it is not easly inferable fro mthe page name (unlike the templates that these pages include).

I personally dont like the separation of the Mainpage in too many templates: its content is in fact fully transcluded from "/suffixed" of Template:Main Page which adds the missing language code and direction for the layout; instead of using a single page with DISPLAYTITLE; these page names should better be redirected to use the Translate extension that allows displaying the translated title without the suffix. This would have avoided this complication where the content language code is difficult to track ; MediaWiki still contains no special keyword to mark (with metadata) in which language the content of a page is written (and a builtin parser function or keyword to retrieve this code in templates, this would really help in this situation on all multilingual wikis; this would also allow the translate extension to correctly determine the source language used in base pages for translations, instead of assuming always the default content language of the Wiki). verdy_p (talk) 04:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The "th", "nd", etc. don't look very good in English. In this format, it would be more natural to just use the number (IMHO). PiRSquared17 (talk) 04:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

OK I have tested that, this was an example. Anyway the Italian, Spanish, Portuguese suffixes (superscript o) are ok, as the German and Finnish suffix (full stop), the CJK suffixes (Hangul or Han syllable). I'll remove it for English. Until the other templates are fixed to track the language correctly (so that they won't use any day ordinal suffix like English). verdy_p (talk) 05:01, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Note: there's some more ork to do to prepare the type of modification you want to expose for the main page (whose design can/should be simplied to be more easily translatable with the Translate extension.

I will probably create a new sandbox of it in order to test the new layout. Later, the old Main pages will be renamed/archived, in order to place the translatable version as a simple redirect (once the existing template:Main Page will have been moved to the main space. But the initial work will be to convert the individual templates to use the Translate extension and migrate exising texts. This will be difficult, we still have old translations not easily convertible so the Main Page translations currently transcluding their content will better use a redirect to a suffixed page in the main space. Translated pages without /language suffix are difficult to adapt and difficult to link to as it is extrmely difficult to track their language without huge complications. verdy_p (talk) 05:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Ami des langues bonjour, Peux-tu regarder cette discussion s'il-te-plaît ? Ton aide est la bienvenue. Merci. --Nnemo (talk) 12:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

j'y ai déjà répondu. mais relis ce qui est ci-dessus. c'est plus compliqué que ce que tu penses, notamment sur la page d'accueil qui est très mal fichue !!! verdy_p (talk) 13:04, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Pour info le problème est résolu, j'ai ajouté l'info de langue qui manquait au bon endroit. dans l'invocation des modèles "Template:Announce Xxxx" pour qu'ils en tiennent compte (tous ces modèles en tiennent compte) et qu'ils la repassent au modèle Template:Announce de base. qui s'occupera des formats.

Si l'info de langue est absente, c'est un format par défaut qui est pris : celui de la page si la page a un suffixe de langue, sinon la langue de l'interface utilisateur. Et dans tous les cas ces langues ont un ou plusieurs fallbacks, dont l'anglais standard qui est le dernier recours la plupart du temps (il y a quelques exceptions, par exemple l'anglais canadien dont les fallbacks sont dans l'ordre le français canadien puis l'anglais standard, puis le français standard, mais ce dernier cas ne devrait pas survenir, i lest rare de trouver des ressources en francais standard sur Meta qui ne sont pas aussi en anglais standard servant de fallback pour des modèles ou pages traduisibles). verdy_p (talk) 19:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Glossary

Hi, I wonder whether you might hold off for a few days in marking it for translation. I think it needs a run-through, and I'd only just taken a first look a few hours ago. Tony (talk) 09:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I have seen that there are still problems in the glossary. Before making it, it effectively needs some structure (and probably a split with one subpage per definition, so that the each one can be translated but the full list of terms of the glossary can be reordered correctly.

If you look closely, I've fixed many links that were not working (and notably introduced unique ids, separately from their form

Note: defined terms are no longer displayed in capitals, this is much more readable in standard case, like in a dictionary, and it won't break on translations. We don't really need capitals as they are already displayed in a larger font). It is also more compact for narrow screens. But the fonts used are still to small when lines should not be wider than 36-40em, for easier reading. verdy_p (talk) 12:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Verdy, nice work. I'll go back to it later today. Coming from the French language, you must be frowning at the over-capping in English. Since the computer age we've been slow to adjust to the wealth of highlighting devices that render initial cappings redundant. en.WP (and the big style authorities in English) discourage capping, and we must do our best to make Meta more readable and more easily translatable. Yes! Tony (talk) 05:31, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

There are still lot of work to do. For now I'm concentrated at fixing many broken links everywhere, miscategorized contents. Meta-Wiki really needs cleanup and organization. Even the WMF staff makes lots of errors without correcting them on Meta-Wiki (I may make some errors but they are temporary and won't last for month and accumulate, if I can I correct everythng I can, even if these are "minor details"; I fix much more than what I may break somewhere else, but It's unavoidable when everything is inconstant and never checked seriously, and almost never documented or categorized).

It seems that eveery one on Meta just concentrate on one page and does not care about the rest. I hope that Meta-Wiki will really be usable and really international as it should be. And also accessible. Gor now Meta-Wiki is still an enormous stokpile of accumulated pages without any kind of maintenance and it still shows the worst practices and is still a demo of anticollaboration, missing completely its mission.

But I cannot do everything at once. I try to set a general structure showing things that really work and that can be applied elsewhere or continued. But even bots cannot help (they are too risky to use on Meta due to the too many incoherences and incompatible designs). verdy_p (talk) 07:34, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm relatively new to Meta, and was and still am frustrated by its famous navigation difficulties. And I'm a native anglophone ... what must it be like for others? Yes, it's a serious issue, and I'd like to see WMF funding for a carefully rationed translation service on Meta. It would become a bottomless pit of instant needs if talkpages were included, but certainly a system of prioritising pages and target languages should be developed. I hope no one is looking when I say here that I'd rather a little money each year was shifted from our affiliate funding schemes to Meta translation—centralised information and discourse onwiki could be a much more effective vehicle for sponsoring high-impact projects than the at-times messy and hard-to-evaluate and monitor system we have at the moment. (But funded translation would be a politically charged issue in terms of which pages and which languages.) Tony (talk) 15:42, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right; it's extremely difficult to navigate on Meta abd find the relevant information. Even before the lack of translations, it is the lack of classification and basic naming conventions, plus lack of categories, and absolutely no maintenance to fix broken links, and the many double/triple (or more!) redirects, plus admis here deleting pages without notice and without checking first which pages are linking to a place.

Some interesting special pages are worth visiting, notably maintenance Special pages. Since a few months, I've made thousands of fixes and msot of my work on Meta were about fixing ma,y such things (plus **correctly** preparing pages for translations and not assuming basic English rules : there's a clear lack of understanding of translation issues, even by existing translate admins. And I have serious doubts about the technical skills of many of the WMD staff adding random pages everywhere on this site with their admin rights without checking anything (plus several one of them do not even know the basic CSS or HTML syntax, even though they are active here, and operate bots that generate completely invalid code !!!). It seems that XMD staff are operating this site as if it was a basic HTML site and many of them do not even know the fundamentals of MediaWiki and are not even aware of its limitations. They work here as if they were editing their personal blog or as if it was just a collection of files on theur local PC.

We need serious maintainers, even to control what the XMF staff make here. And involvement by technical specialists of chapters would be appreciated (notably from Wikimedia Germany).

But the best specialists do not want to work on Meta, they only work on English Wikipedia, where they are not even interested in internationalisation.For now the best specialists are found on Commons where there are lots of people correcting the bad assumptions made by many US contributors. Unfortunately, even on other localized wikis, when they have good knowledge of their local issues, they don't really care about sharing this on an international wiki like Meta-Wiki or even on Commons. It is symptomatic that even the WMD had completely given up on the proect of internationalization of MediaWiki, by just trusting what is done in Translatewiki.net (outside WMF!) and in the Unicode CLDR project.

When I started working in this, many admins were sjeptical about what I started and wanted to do here. Sometimes they did not understand the problems and reverted everything, feeling that waht I did was not even needed (even though it was incrementally prepareing things for allwing later fixes without breaking more things in the middle (so some pages absolutely have to be edited in several steps, even if finally we can simplify things). I try doing things by preservingt compatibilty, fixing all links before continuing. I perform really a lot of checks and constantly evaluate what is the least disruptive...

Even if you do not understand all what I do, there are simple things that can be done: finding pages missing categories, and removing double redirects as soon as possible and probably even most links via redirects.. Also solving the many problems caused by insufficiently qualifiying names for templates which perform too many assumptions and limit their reuse. some pages are also abusively split into many templates (the Main Page of this site is still an horror to maintain, full of design errors and bad assumptions accumlated over time!). Meta-Wiki currently gives a very bad promotion of Wikimedia projects when almost everything in it was developed in a very selfish way without thinking about interaction and evolutions. But I hope that my work progressiveley improves things. verdy_p (talk) 16:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Verdy, sorry to lag in replying. You specify many critical issues that may fall into several categories in terms of how to overcome them (aside from your own laudable work). But I don't know how to sort them in that respect. For my own benefit, since I'm not much good at the technical side, let me list them, slightly tweaked:

1. lack of classification and basic naming conventions
2. lack of categories
3. no maintenance to fix broken links and the many double/triple (or more!) redirects
4. deletion of pages without notice and without checking first which pages are linking to a place
5. a clear lack of understanding of translation issues, even by existing translate admins
6. technical skills of many of the [WMF] staff adding random pages with admin rights—checking protocols are required, and basic CSS or HTML syntax knowledge is ?often required
7. XMD staff operating Meta as if it was a basic HTML site with insufficient knowledge of the fundamentals of MediaWiki and its limitations
8. Need for serious maintainers, even to control what the XMF staff make here. And involvement by technical specialists of chapters would be appreciated (notably from Wikimedia Germany)

OK, I don't understand it all. But at a distance, it looks as though some strategies might improve things: a few protocols for admins; an IEG grant for someone to do some serious work (I seem to remember a failed or withdrawn application last year ... it wasn't well worked out, but it was a start); and maybe some serious funding for translation of triaged pages and languages by the WMF.

This is work in progress, and even though I'm a technical dumbo, I'm very supportive of the general thrust. Tony (talk) 16:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC) PS Please edit that list if you're interested in shaping it into a list of priorities. Tony (talk) 16:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't invalidate time-sensitive translations

Hello, I love you for how big a portion of Meta-Wiki you upgrade to support our multilingual users, but please don't invalidate the work of translators in a way that obliterates all their expectations and effectiveness. You know very well that Tech News is a time-sensitive publication: translators expect their translation to be used, not trashed; if they translate on Friday or Saturday to be on time, they expect not to see a partly untranslated issue in their language; if translations are invalidated during the weekend, they can't be expected to be there to update them. Changes need to be as few and minimal as possible. So, please don't touch Tech News translation tagging and don't mark Tech News for translation.

Don't bother replying. Such changes will be reverted, period. --Nemo 10:36, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I have replied immediately to the translators list when I haf received the alert there. At that time there was ony 2 languages affected, and from Friday to Monday morning we already expect other changes when these will be frozen on Sunday for the last fixes. Only 1 unit was affected. If those 2 translators had the time to create them immediately in just a few minutes, when the announced on Friday, there's still time to fix them in the more than 2 days remaining. I did not do that on late Sunday. verdy_p (talk) 17:12, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

You did it again. I don't understand what's hard to understand: just don't touch translation tagging while someone else is working on it, ever. If you don't stop, I'll propose to fully protect Tech News close to publication to prevent you from editing. --Nemo 08:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely not (and the initial person was not working on it since one hour, he was just sending an external email to us; I started the translation to French which was still not there; and I noted the missing tvar at the same time as the initial author that validated my own French translations). And you've not followed the thread. I corrected only the missing video tag that was forgotten immediately after it was submitted for translation and in very early time. My ocrrection was even ,ade exactly the same way by the same person and I have explained it as well by replying to his alert email. Nothing was lost (except that there was a bug in the translate tool caused by two updates that were identical and submitted at the same time). Stop overreacting (4 days after) about something you've absolutely not followed ! No there was no data loss at all. I've absolutely NOT invalidated ANY translation ! (at that time there were only two generic Japanese translation they were stil there, and only my own French translations that were ALSO there; all other translations have been done after that). And yes it is expected that there will be a few minor changes between the early marking made on Friday morning and the last validation on Saturday evening. There was effectively an error; and I have checked ALL existing translations and they were ALL OK after the change of the video link. There was trouble for absolutely nobody. verdy_p (talk) 02:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

en-ca>fr-ca

Hi. I do not think fallback from en-ca to fr-ca makes any sense. That would be like having a fallback from British English to Welsh (bad analogy but you get the point). PiRSquared17 (talk) 04:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The precision for "Canada", if present in a resource adds a specificity in a dual speaking country. Note that if fr-ca is not defined, it will not default to generic fr but still to generic en.~

What I corrected is that fr-ca was tested but fr was used instead (without being tested), so the fix.

This is a special case commented since long where a few resources need the country code, more than the language code fr or en. verdy_p (talk) 04:48, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Your analogy does not apply, Welsh has no specific region code, both are in "gb". The "Standard" English (en) will always be tested as a last resort in all cases and must be defined (unless there's a different default provided in the template to replace en. verdy_p (talk) 04:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The difference between Canadian English, British English, and American English is negligible, especially in writing. These /en-gb and /en-ca "translations" are mostly changing spellings, e.g. -ize vs. -ise. Translations are separated by language, not by country. PiRSquared17 (talk) 00:08, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I know all that. You've still not understood the problem correctly.

But "en-ca" is not used to catch spelling differences between US English and British English used (sometimes) in Canada: for this, the "en-gb" locale is highly prefered. But "en-ca" (and "fr-ca") is used to show specific contents applicable to the Canada, in areas that are widely dual-speaking (e.g. the region of Toronto). 'en-ca" has a very limited use in Meta-Wiki because people take care of defining the "en" and "fr" locales so that they can apply to Canada has well. It is not really a question of orthography (there's no real "Canadian English" language, only content applicable to Canada which may be either in English or French; the same applies to Cameroun). The idea is effectively to catch the country, more than one of the two languages which will fallback to each other in their respective country locale, *before* trying with the non-country-specific locale for the initial langage.

So yes the fallback chain is "en-ca > fr-ca > en > fr" and **not** "en-ca > en > fr-ca > fr" (this is an exception to the default BCP47 fallback chain, applicable also to other countries with coofficial languages of locales for minority languages spoken in mutiple countries having different dominant languages, e.g. Kurdish within countries dominated by Arabic, or Persan, or Arabic, depending n the country, and whose fallback chains need to be adapted according to the country). verdy_p (talk) 02:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Note: I've almost finished reviewing the list of fallbacks for languages in use. Next step will be to replace this long template by integrating it in the Lua module for TNT (which also needs such fallbacks).

But I'll first try a sandbox version in a separate module to check the equivalences and the behavior; before integrating it in the TNT module, and then make LangSwitch use that module, and finally use fallbacks too for TNT and TNTN templates (this will allow smoother code for handling autotranslations in the user language rather than the page content language (used only for translatable pages, but not easily in monolingual pages including a multilingual notice or infobox, such as talk pages). verdy_p (talk) 04:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The template seems very huge, but it is very efficient, for info here are what it generates without the doc page itself:

Temps CPU d’utilisation 0.048 seconde

Temps réel d’utilisation 0.052 seconde

Nombre de nœuds de préprocesseur visités 81/1000000

Nombre de nœuds de préprocesseur générés 51563/1500000

Taille d’inclusion après expansion 61/2048000 octets

Taille de l’argument du modèle 0/2048000 octets

Plus grande profondeur d’expansion 6/40

Nombre de fonctions d’analyse coûteuses 0/500

I took care to maintain performance and making sure that it could be used many times in the same page. The most important cost only comes not from the main switch, but from the default case that tests the default in the last line of each case; where there's a match, the cost is divided by about 4. The expansion depth is limited to 6 (that's why each case is separately developed even if this duplicates some parts of the code; I avoided absolutely including another helper template for handling these multiple fallbacks). Expansion depth is the most critical (for reusability), but it has never grown out of reasonnable limits in that template, the way it is written.

I don't know if a Lua module will be really more performant without testing it in a separate sandbox, it would just reduce a bit the transclusion depth to 2 levels instead of 6 (I know that Lua adds about 50-100 ms for instanciating it and loading the module and compiling it to bytecode in cache, then about 8-15ms per invokation; TNT may sometimes be costly when it tests too many pages with a function equivalent to "ifexist", only because MEdiaWiki must lookup separate pages by perfoming a SQL query; but MEdiaWiki inherently has this cost when you include any wikilink in a page just to determine if it's a blue or red link; if exist should not be costly as long as we don't need to load the actual tested page; loading a page in the parser should be better optimized to use a fast cache without repeating the SQL request, and tests of existence can also be cached; in my opinion "ifexist" should never be considered "costly" if it worked like a standard unconditional wikilink; the only cost is when you actually load/transclude many different pages/templates, or if the expansion would generate huge transcluded data repeated many times and generating huge HTML pages; i.e. the cost should be measured on the actual output size).

verdy_p (talk) 05:41, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Evalmenu and Evalhome

Hi Verdy p

I really appreciate your enthusiasm to translate the designs -- I am very passionate about this as well but the templates and pages are no where near their final stages yet and will be going through many modifications in the coming month or so. I will definitely seek your guidance to making sure the pages are compatible with many screen sizes and languages, but need some time to develop the basic design first. These are in my sandbox for a reason :) Thank you so much! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 18:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Also, I just realized the template is not under my sandbox, but I do need it to function like a template for now, so that's why is in that namespace. Sorry for that confusion!! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 18:20, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Also - your work will not go to waste - I will revisit what you did and incorporate what I can when the final version is ready :) --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 18:23, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you realize that your code cannot work and is much more complex than what I proposed ? (note : the 5px white separation is static it is not dependant on the percentage and font sizes. Also your code cannot work with RTL and it displays uneven separations. It is also unnecessariky long, when I jusd a code that just switches between white external margins or colored padding, without modifying the ~16% width. The code also avoid playing with the effects of cumulated widths and paddings plus margins, because columns have all the same size in the outer div, no padding, no margin: it is the inner div that use margins or padding.

Also your code incorrectly assumes left and right sizes. I had tested it separately before submitting because this caused problems.

Reconsider my design, it is not wrong and much more compact with less switches. I had kept all the colors you had selected. I also included the test below the template for the 6 cases to demontrate that it worked effectively.

As the column sizes are easy to compute with my code, you may also readjust it more easily if you need more columns. However mennus constructed like with floats this may not resit in some languages needing longer labels.

For such things, I think that tables are better as labels could wrap, and the row height would be readjusted in all columns. verdy_p (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Note: you can use TNT immediately, if if you wish I can propose the version which autotranslates using a top switch.

Well I'll repost my code in the talk page used as a temporary sandbox (but still without the translate tags as I don't want to send talk pages to the translate tool)

It's unfortunate that you reverted something that was already working and solved problems immediately, I had not changed radically the way the template would be used, for now your does not work on several browsers and not on smartphones/tablets or small screens (it is always a bad idea to approximate thr 100% width by summing columns in percentages with additional paddings or margins, and I really think that the white separations are really ugly with uneven sizes., and that they are unnecessarily big (my code was working even with just 1px, or with 30 px, the labels were correctly centered vertically in their box, and labels could fit longer texts for translations (beware with languages like Armenian and some language need more than 1 word for the concept)...

Note that this causes you have a similar issue in the IdeaLab for its decorated menu at top with only 2 menu items (look at the French translation, and reduce the width of your screen, even in English there are floatting white text that become invisible when they are wrapped). verdy_p (talk) 18:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Verdy p for the explanations and info - I agree that the headings are really tight right now and I can see now that they will not work on smaller screens -- the design is still in the works. Great point that other languages need more space - I'll think about how to accommodate this and review the code you already did as well and incorporate as needed. I will probably have more time to work on this later this week, but I will definitely do it and get back to you if I have question - thanks again for the tips and help! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 23:58, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

There are other problems, but this tmes this comes from the Wikimedia design of the mobile view of its sites; it uses a very agressive CSS stylesheet (very broad selectors) that completely changes the box-sizing from the default "content-box" of the HTML standard, to the old "border-box" as in Internet Explorer (even on non-Internet Explorer browsers !). This causes the menu not behaving correctly. This box sizing **must** then be set on *all* divs that include non-zero borders, or paddings. You can see the problem and how I fixed it in the Talk page after looking precisely at what was needed. The "Minerva" LAF used by the Mobile view (wikicode.m.wikimedia.org or langcode.m.wikiprojectdomain.org ) is definitely broken.

The alternative (not using the "box-sizing" property) would require adding more embedded divs to encapsulate the borders/margins, paddings (this is what is done for better compatiblity in the standard view for navboxes or infoboxes to make sure their sizing will be OK across browsers (including old versions of IE or browsers emulating the IE "quirks mode").

I've updated my test on the talk page showing the problem, to integrate your addition of icons, and rounded corner. verdy_p (talk) 02:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I've also seen that the mobile view uses a very interesting featue in its CSS : images will be automatically rescaled down to fit with "max-width:100%", but only if they are encapsulated in a link (i.e. an "img" element within an "a" element); so images witout links (those that use "link=" in their wiki parameters with no value after the equal sign) will not be rescaled.

Rescaling is interesting even for the non-mobile view, but it should not depend on the presence of a link (either the default link to the image description page, or the link specified in link=*) or not (images whose link= parameter is empty): for me this restriction is inconsistant in the Mobile view which should not need the presence of "a>img" in its CSS selector to define "max-width;100% !important".

In the wiki syntax however, we cannot set CSS styles on images. But both views (mobile or desktop) should integrate "img {max-width:100% !important;}" or there should exist a way to specify a "max-width:" for images in the wiki syntax. And ideally the style should not use "!important" but the selector could be more specific with a "img.mw-reductible" selector to add the "max-width:100%" and the "mw-reductible" should be set on SVG images, or on all images having no "max-width" parameter defined.

You'll see that my version is perfect in the Mobile View: if the screen is too narrow, the images will shrink automatically in the tab (dynamically by the browser if you adjust the width of the window, e.g. in Chrome), leaving more vertical space for the label to wrap on more lines (even in the middle of a word), without truncation of the end of text. verdy_p (talk) 03:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Fallback for gsw

Hi Verdy p, I'm sorry, I'm no expert in MediaWiki. My problem is that the fallback, which is shown to me on meta is French and that is not right, as I'm living in Germany. In my preferences I have set gsw (I don't find something like gsw-de or gsw-fr). Of course for people in France who have set gsw as language in their preferences fallback should be French but not for people in Germany or Switzerland. Perhaps you could fix that. Thank you very much. Greetings from Germany. --Holder (talk) 05:35, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The fallback from "gsw" still uses "de" before "fr", but the fallback from "gsw-fr" uses the reverse order... Your modification was canceled as you had modified "gsw-fr" (Alsatian essentially) and not just "gsw", but I have added "de" to "gsw".

Alsatian is very popular culturally in the Region of Alsace, France (probably even more than Alemanisch in Western Germany), but in France Alsatians will still prefer reading a fallback to French first (most Alsatians are bilingual with French, not with German).

Note that the language code "als" was deprecated (wrong code) and unified with "gsw", the standard ISO 639-2/3 and BCP47 code. "gsw-fr" is he standard code for Alsatian. verdy_p (talk) 05:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Archive-index

And your latest edit still didn't fix it. See for example Requests for comment/Archive. The page name was visible as you can see when you revert your edit. Trijnstel_talk 11:31, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't react too fast, your code is not working, but I'm already trying to fix a solution and know that there's a problem in some namespages where "../" links do not work properly. verdy_p (talk) 11:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay. Let's wait and see then. Trijnstel_talk 11:37, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I've found a workaroundfor non working ".." links, now this works, but the bug was not in my code you had reverted, it was existing since long before and your revert did not solve it.

Basically, "../" links do not behave correcly in many namespace that are not enabled with "subpages", the only workaround is to use titleparts (that ignores the subpage settings in namespaces, but the archiving system is still used in such namespaces). The situation was even worse in talk namespaces. The code to fix it is tricky and we also need to chack in two places if there is effectively a parent page (or grand parent page in a translated archiving index page).

Really we should not need to use such code if that template was used on pages specifying the base page name of the archiving. But there's no such parameter where this template is used, so we have to perform some dirty "magic guesses". verdy_p (talk) 11:50, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for reporting the encoding issue

Hello. I am glad you informed Emaus of his bot's encoding problem. However, I think the tone of the last sentence you added here was uncalled for. PiRSquared17 (talk) 19:27, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I've repeated a gentle message several times. However a bot that overwrites pages automatically everyday without taking care of the content, needs to be monitored permanently (or it must be place on hold in case of absence).

The bot policy on all wikimedia projects requires such presence and a way to alert the bot to stop its updates on some pages that it corrupts. The owner should then be alerted later and will see that there's a problem (in fact he will also know it by the fact the bot talk page or the documented tlak page of the owner (required per policy) has received some messages that cannot be ignored.

Yes my tone is that of an order (but the order is still polite); and a last chance to react. If there's no answer, we have to request to block the bot until the owner fixes the problem and at least answers to his incoming requests.

Otherwise this would mean that the bot owns permanently the page and rejects all attempts to fix any errors and acts anti-cooperatively. verdy_p (talk) 19:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Password

Dear Verdy p! (See) Could you help me? This problem is unsolvable for me. Between my Hungarian user page and the commons page is not relation. Doncsecz^talk 12:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

If you can not, other competent person? Doncsecz^talk 12:37, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I cannot do anything, I'm not an sysop or bureaucrat, here or in your wiki of interest. In fact you should contact them on the wiki for which you request taking the user name (the older useraccount will not be given to you, it will have to be renamed and his owner will be contacted if possible. If you get control of the new user name, you'll have to leave a notification in your user page to inform the owner if he ever comes back and can no longer login, so that he knows where is his new account. verdy_p (talk) 12:44, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Evaluation portal redesign preview

Hi Verdy p - The Learning & Evaluation team at the WMF is currently redesigning the Evaluation portal! Before we take the next steps in the redesign process, we'd really like to hear your thoughts and feedback about the new design. You have been involved in evaluation portal over the last year and can help us design an internationally accessible site.

When you have a moment, please visit the link below for screenshots and more information. We'd really like to hear your feedback by July 21 07:00 UTC so we can incorporate your ideas or comments into the design process.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Boiler_room/Portal_Redesign_Plan/Community_feedback

Thank you so much! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 20:23, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey Verdy p! Just wanted to remind you that we'd realy like any feedback by Monday July 21 7:00UTC. Thanks so much! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 23:02, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia genealogy project page translated?

Is it helpful to have pages like this translated? --Another Believer (talk) 20:45, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Basically this page is essentially a discussion page in various mixed languages from each participant.

If you want to have things translated, the presentation at top of the page could be transluded from a subpage or templates that could be translated. They would appear in the main tlak page using the user language, that page remaining multilingual like most other talk pages:

If the project evolves enough, you could try developing a portal for the project by separating discussions from presentations and management of the project or news. It has still not readh a string enough consensus (and there are issues related to privacy and rights of living persons, plus problems about notoriety in many Wikipedias), plus many other legal concerns. It is really too early to translate it. The projet could die soon and get a strong opposition from the Foundation.

You will still need more participants and create a true project tracking works in order to get approval as a community project (this does not mean that this project will get a wiki, it could also work across existing wikis in their own local language, and this portal would just be for coordinating efforts. For now that page should not be translated in ots existing form that mixes everything and every language. verdy_p (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

":en:wikt:" vs ":wikt:en:"

I don't understood this revert. Inerwiki prefix ":wikt:en:" is worked for English and ":wikt:ru:" is worked for Russian (as example). Your version is linked to Wiktionary through Wikipedia, that looks redundant and incorrect. It is possible that there is a Wikisource in some language without related Wikipedia - your format does not work in this case. --Kaganer (talk) 16:08, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

when you write :wikt:ru: it first links to Wiktionnary in English; which cannot resolve all languages to link to the other site. I've seen requently suh links in ported messages not working. Lnking first via :en: or :ru: to go to English or Russian Wikipedia, always works to resolve then to Wiktionnary, because all Wiipedias have the interwiki to their Wiktionnary, but not language interwikis prefixes are resolved by Engllish non-Wkipedia wikis.

in summary the order :propect:language: always worls; but not :language:project. This is a problem notably when suggesting links to translate; and notably for messages that will be ported to be copied verbatim to other wikis, we get "red links" even if this works when starting from Meta-Wiki (and why we suggest somrtimes to use ":m:" first.

The way interwikis with two codes are resolved is not perfomed globally directly from the source wiki in one step. Your comment says "redundant", but it is not. n all cases there's a redirect first to some wiki which uses its own local resolvers.

One example: using a link starting with ":en:" in English Wiktionnary or Wikisource, or starting by ":fr:" in French Wiktionnary or Wikisource generally does not work at all. THe same is true from ":commons:" in Commons (it conflicts with the local project namespace and is not an interwiki), unless you use the new ":c::" prefix instead. There are incoherences across wikis for porting messages, or with ":w:" which does not work from Wikipedia itself (use the language code instead, possubly by linking first to Meta with ":m:").

Both syntaxes look "redundant"' from your point of view, but my syntax using the order ":project:language:" is certainly not "incorrect", when you order is sometimes incorrect and does not resolve from every project (and notably it hurts on many ocally unknown language codes, except in English-only Wikipedia which still does not resolve ":en!" and ":w:" or their two combinations). There are related issues in Bugzilla about the non uniform interiwki links across wikis..verdy_p (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Evaluation portal

Hi User:Verdy p I am finished for the day because I have dinner plans :). A bit of background - I created the Template:Anchor/Language because it works with anchors - when you click on a link the template keeps the target in the language of the current page. I tested it in my sandbox and it worked perfectly (yay!) while Special:MyLanguage did not :( . If you visit Grants:Start, which uses Special:MyLanguage in the Navigation menu, you will see how clicking a link in the navigation bar while in a non-English language will revert you back to English. This template is part of my overall design for the new portal, which I have not yet finished posting to Grants:Evaluation. I understand it is a strange template - but it works very well for what I am creating. Another example - In Template:Evalsubpage, if you click on "español" and then click "estudiar" - you can see how Grants:Evaluation is in English when it should actually be in Spanish (how would you fix that?). For now, I will leave it as is - once the full site is up, you may understand better what I'm trying to solve. Sorry, I just found another example: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech; click on any non-English language then click on one of the 5 topic headings - it reverts back to English!

Also, when I do substantial changes to someone else's work, I typically contact them first, to make sure I do not intrude. While I do appreciate you help--even when its a bit frustrating--this is a project I have been working on for over a month (imagine someone doing the same to you?). I would really, really appreciate it if you can let me know by email or talk page when you are going to be making substantial changes to pages that I've been working on heavily - I have been doing the same courtesy to you by posting on your talk page and posting to Meta:Babel. I really enjoy your expertise and passion for accessibility, but it would be better if we can figure out some kind of communication workflow. You can email me at egalvezwikimediaorg. Thank you! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 01:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

"Special:MyLangiage/" uses the UI language and not the content language of the current page. This is by design (because it allows across pages using links in the user languages if available, otherwise using fallback language, but also returning as soon as possible to the user's prefered language, even when he followed a link appearing on an "Engleech" fallback page and thn having to look again for the link going to his user language.

OHHH. That is much clearer now. I changed my settings to Spanish and it worked fine. Huh. That is quite cool. Thanks --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

If you want to compute the effectve link to the page that "Special:MyLanguage/namespace:pagename" would link to, you may use {{TNTN|namespace:pagename| uselang={{uselang}} }} to override the default language used by TNTN when the uselang parameter is absent: with the uselang template, you'll get the UI language code.

But note that for now TNTN does not implement all the language fallbacks supported by "Special:MyLanguage/" (and coming from the MdiaWiki configuration). But note that the list of fallback languages is still not fully tested and there are tricky cases (currently handled in Template:LangSwitch (which is an older method for creating autotranslated pages, using the UI language by default too, but also overridable by the uselang parameter).

My intent is in fact to deprecate TNT as much as possible in favor of TNTN and better integrate later TNTN with the older LangSwitch, and with other translation mechanisms currently in use, with a working system for fallbacks.

For now I've just managed to handle what is currenyly existing and migrating slowly what is the most wanted (most new contents use the Translate extension, even if it has some irritating synchronisation caveats, with the workaround using pseudo null-edits, but I have not changed what is cirrently working with Langwitch, such as meta-notification boxes shown at top of pages about page status, work in progress, user boxes, and so on... this is very long to change and there are other emergencies than converting all to the new system which stil lrequires lot of preparation work by translate admins, due to lack of better automated tools.

However with enough trained translate admins, doing things correctly, we can considerably improve what is the most visible and the most active on the wiki without having to do all the transaltion work: a good preparation work allows many new translators to contribute, even for less common languages and with less technical background than with the old templates like LangSwitch, and allows better protection of pages in a reference source language; and better coordination and synchronization). Globally we've got a huge work at the begining, but later this is simpler and we save time. And globally since I4ve started this job on Meta, the available translated contents in Meta has considerably increased since the begining of year, and it is much easier to find and navigate through without being forced everytime to return to pages sticked in English. Using the UI language by default for links with "Special:MyLanguage/" was an excellent decision. Using the Translate tool was also the second excellent choice (even if we need more translate admins and teach things to each others).

I'd like to have the time to document everything I discover, but there are so many tricky things found everywhere in wiki pages, and so many bad practices and assumptions that it's really long to convert this site to be a fully multilingual site, as friendly as possible to all users in the world, and more open to more translators to help us and doing things correctly. verdy_p (talk) 04:34, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

But your proposed template does not solve the problem, in fact it is not correctly using the content lanuage and does not work at all because it does not receives the parameter needed to locate existing page (you used the "link" parameter; but you doid not ffed it, and you did not text in the template if this parameter was passed. This caused broken links in ALL translations.

Yeah, I realized that afterward. Sorry about that. I was tired and hungry :) --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

If you want to link to a page with the same language as the current page, you don't need your template, there's already a correct way to do that with TNTN which locates a page and returns a matching page, you can pass the uselang parameter for that and pass it any other language code (it will use it as the prefered language to use, and will resolve fallbacks from his language). If you use TNN with uselang=pagelang, it will locate the target page trying to use the same language as the current page, and if the link goes to the current page, it will link to exactly the same page in the same language.

So I should add uselang anytime I use pagelang (i.e. for floating divs)? --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I am always careful, when converting a template to be autotranslatable, to add a "uselang" parameter that takes by default the value returned by pagelang (the only case where I don't se pagelang by default is when I know that the page or template will never be translated itself; becayse it is a talk page or a subpage for storing accumulated votes, as these will never be translated). This allows reuing the same tempalte with a different language or an explicit one needed in some context, or using it with the UI language if needed.

So uselang is there in the case where you would still want to use the UI language, but most templates will be used in translatable pages (ot pages that whpuld be converted to become transatable), that's why I use the return value of pagelang as default instead of the return value of uselang (the UI language). verdy_p (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

You have also broken the autotranslate mechanism several tmes (producing infinite recurion loops) when you have changed a tvar (named x) into a plain-text "x". The autotraslation needs an emty tvar which is the only way for now we can detect if the transluded page is translated or not. you don't understand it and you have broken it.... You reverted it by lretending you understood it, I affirm you did not understand it at all !

the single tranlsate unit using an ampty tvar is needed; it used a voluntarily short variable na,e that means nothing ($x) and translators are not required to translated it, but if they do they can enter "$x" or empty HTML comment or any whitepaces only. They don't have to fill it and the same vamue remains $x. It is definitely not a "noinclude" plain-text that DOES NOT work for avoiding properly recursion loops on transcusions.

Really you are confused everywhere !!! If you're tired, stop your job and think again tomorrow, go to your dinner. verdy_p (talk) 02:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

One more question about the language tag (where it lists "Other languages" - I very much enjoyed having the languages under the main menu. I think it looks nicer there. Can I ask why you insist that it be at the very top (and the full width of the page?) Thanks! --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 02:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't insist on the language bar being at the very top of pages but only to use the full available width as possible (this list can be very long, it is not relly part of the page itself but links to other versions translating all the content below.

There's then only two places for it: at the very top, or at the very bottom. But if you place it in the middle of the trnalsated content (for example after a top menu), you have to break that content and not use its margins. The languages bar can be very populated and ther's no good reason to narrow it.

My opinion is that this should be separated from the rest of the page (and there are ongoing changes to the look of the language bar that will allow it to be partially hidden, or customizable, so please don't including it within the main page content, and notably not within a block that has additional margins, or borders, backgrounds, or that uses other custom font settings (the language bar has its own requirements and must be isolated. from the rest, either at the very top, or the very bottom of pages, and outside any other container (this is also important for the mobile view that uses a very different layout for it). verdy_p (talk) 02:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all the additional info. I didn't realize the translate extension was meant to be used with the preferred language setting. To give you an update on whats coming - I am working on moving subpages into Grants:Evaluation. I do have a main page designed and I would really like for you to take a look at it. Template:Evalhome is the top of the home page, and there will be four sections underneath - If you edit one, I can apply any changes to the others (see Template:Evaluation/Study}. If you do make changes, please stick to the main design elements (colors, look, layout, font sizes) as much as possible - I can worry about adding any links using Special:MyLanguage. I've already moved the edits you made to Template:Evaluation/Subpagei to Template:Evalmenu. Thanks so much User:Verdy p. --EGalvez (WMF) (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I avoid changing most of your design except where it breaks with some scripts, or because of incorrect assumptions about languages (e.g. assuming order of words in a sentence, or assuming punctuations and whitespaces).As much as possible, please don't break translation units in the middel of the same sentence. You can still use some tvar to hide some formatting elements and styles, as I did with the "$big" tvar added which is still clear enough and short to avoid confusing translators that have difficultiies in interpreting HTML tags with many attributes, or ugly parserfunction calls. This will save translator time (but it requires a bit more work to prepare pages and look at existing pages where there may be incorrect assumptions and need to reform some units).

Be careful when renaming pages and notably autotranslated templates: at the bottom of these pages, there's an invokation of TNTN that contains the name of the base template itself (this is not a self recursion, but a reference used to change to the correct language specified in the "uselang" parameter. To make this clear to you I added a comment in Evalmenu showing you that.

My technic for creating autotranslated templates no longer requires using the "TNT" or "TNTN" template to use it (TNTN is used now automatically when needed), but the autotranslated templates can still be invoked via TNT or TNTN without creating recursion loops because the top part (the empty case of the switch will always match in non-base template and the bottom part using TNTN will never be invoked.

For autotranslatable pages/templates, now I consistently use the top switch on an empty "tvar" (just named "x" as it expands to nothing, we need a non-empty name for the trick to work correctly) encapsulated in a translate tag, which does all the trick. I would prefer having a function allowing to trace back if the page template is used directly or via TNT(N) and if the currently exanded template is the base template or not, but MediaWiki offers no such thing to explore the template expansion stack and avoid infinite recursions causing errors, but the current trick is very stable as the bottom (#default) case of the switch will never match.

I would also prefer having some tvar markup saying that the content should never be translated or only translated to "$x" i.e. the same default as in the English base. If someone introduces a translation with non whitespace character instad of just $x here, the translation will not work but there's no reason for someone introducing omething else than "$x" in this translate unit (the risk is low however, it will only affect the language in which that incorrect translation is made; and will never affect English.

The main part of the template is a top in the switch case for the empty string, but at bottom there's a call to TNTN that also passes all additional parameters (mandatory or optional) used in the top part.

This trick also works within the same template without needing abolutely a separate "/layout" subtemplate (but for some compelx long pages, a "/layout template" is still possible (that contains no translate tag at all, only default text in Englosh for the translatable variables in the base templace containing no layout at all). Using a /layout subtempalte sometiems helpes reducing the number of needed translation items

(the other solution is to use your recently introduced model with a "/content" translatable template containing all texts but this is more complex to maintain (the only interest is when the translatable items are shared across mutliple translated pages or translated templates; for common strings that should be consistant, but it iis then hard to track which item is really needed or still used, I don't like this method that compelxifies things: we have translation groups instead to group related translations n=of all templates and pages for a base topic, and the translation memory to help find common translations).

Also I always test my preparation work with an Arabic layout (with minimal translation: only some 100%-sure items found in Wikidata for equivalent items, or found in the translation memory, and even in that case I don't mark the page as ready, in most cases I just add a "/ar" suffix to the translatable title in English, possibly with the translation of the namespace. This is often enough to look at the resulting page even with missing translated texts shown in English. There are some other tricks to check such as bdi dir="ltr" tags needed in a few cases like showing plain URLs. (note: that the Nospam template used to format email addresses now includes it automatically), when they are used as "isolates" in the middle of a sentence where it should not alter the reading order of the containing sentence. and paragraph.

I'm never satisfied by a preparation work anyway before attempting to complete an actual translation. Many things are discovered when we start translating really. If you know any other language than English, please consider translating your preparation completely to that language. and locate things that are known to cause difficulties to translators (the most tricky cases are caused by grammar requiring a completely different order, that's why we should never attempt to break sentences into separately translatable items, even if this means repeating some common parts in English and should include the ending full stop in the translation unit).

There's lot to learn by translator admins about how different languages work ! and how to prepare wiki pages correctly! (this is also true for software authors preparing any UI for translation). verdy_p (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Meta Rosetta barnstar

		The Meta Rosetta barnstar
		For diligently cleaning up after all of us messy editors and translator admins! I also appreciate seeing your edits - and promise I am trying to learn from them. Thank you for leading the way and being bold! --Varnent (talk)(COI) 21:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Letter petitioning WMF to reverse recent decitions

The Wikimedia Foundation recently created a new feature, "superprotect" status. The purpose is to prevent pages from being edited by elected administrators -- but permitting WMF staff to edit them. It has been put to use in only one case: to protect the deployment of the Media Viewer software on German Wikipedia, in defiance of a clear decision of that community to disable the feature by default, unless users decide to enable it.

If you oppose these actions, please add your name to this letter. If you know non-Wikimedians who support our vision for the free sharing of knowledge, and would like to add their names to the list, please ask them to sign an identical version of the letter on change.org.

• Letter to Wikimedia Foundation: Superprotect and Media Viewer
• Letter on change.org

I'm notifying you because you participated in one of several relevant discussions. -Pete F (talk) 22:24, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Superprotect letter update

Hi Verdy p,

Along with more hundreds of others, you recently signed Letter to Wikimedia Foundation: Superprotect and Media Viewer, which I wrote.

Today, we have 562 signatures here on Meta, and another 61 on change.org, for a total of 623 signatures. Volunteers have fully translated it into 16 languages, and begun other translations. This far exceeds my most optimistic hopes about how many might sign the letter -- I would have been pleased to gain 200 siguatures -- but new signatures continue to come.

I believe this is a significant moment for Wikimedia and Wikipedia. Very rarely have I seen large numbers of people from multiple language and project communities speak with a unified voice. As I understand it, we are unified in a desire for the Wikimedia Foundation to respect -- in actions, in addition to words -- the will of the community who has built the Wikimedia projects for the benefit of all humanity. I strongly believe it is possible to innovate and improve our software tools, together with the Wikimedia Foundation. But substantial changes are necessary in order for us to work together smoothly and productively. I believe this letter identifies important actions that will strongly support those changes.

Have you been discussing these issues in your local community? If so, I think we would all appreciate an update (on the letter's talk page) about how those discussions have gone, and what people are saying. If not, please be bold and start a discussoin on your Village Pump, or in any other venue your project uses -- and then leave a summary of what kind of response you get on the letter's talk page.

Finally, what do you think is the right time, and the right way, to deliver this letter? We could set a date, or establish a threshold of signatures. I have some ideas, but am open to suggestions.

Thank you for your engagement on this issue, and please stay in touch. -Pete F (talk) 18:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Demande de vérifier mes changements a cette page ici

Je demande pardon (aussi pour mon français pas parfait), car j'avais lu que tu avais apporté la plupart des lignes de cette page là, si bien construite avant que... j'arrivais! Mon intention était seulement d'y ajouter la partie qui concerne ma langue maternelle, c'est à dire l'Emilian de l'Italie. Mais il y a quelque chose qui ne roule plus trop bien après mon intervention. Pourrais-tu aller y contrôler? Merci d'avance, --Gloria sah (talk) 19:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Signe $

Excusez moi pour ce désagrément,je croyais que les dollars($) ne devraient pas êtres incluse dans la traduction.C'est une erreur de ma part je vais corriger cela,Merci d'avoir annulé les modifications.Cordialement Startupevo1 (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Visual Editor in Greek

Hi! ΟπτικήΕκδότης is bad Greek. I'm not aware of a translation of VisualEditor. In el.wiki it's still called by its english name. It's not uncommon in greek to leave tech words in english. Please don't revert this. Thank you. —Ah3kal (talk) 21:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Not really "bad Greek" it's a translation, nothing else and I did not notice that I had overwritten a recent translation you made, because I was creating the categories structures unifying them wth shared terms. Those pages did not exist before and I indexed them appropriately. IT was a very minimal edit just in order to create the page with a single optional title (which is not sent to subscribers of the newsletter, only visible on Meta when viewing the page itself). I did not invent the term, I have looked for it in other Wikimedia pages and on the web. The term "Εκδότης" is much more common (and correct) than the ambiguous English term "Editor" with its multiple meaning between the computer tool, the person making an edit (redactor / modificator/corrector), and also a publisher that "edits" what the redactor wrote (here the editor in this meaning is Wikimedia hosting MediaWiki), or republishes it (MassMessage). verdy_p (talk) 04:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Please allow me, a native speaker, to judge ΟπτικήΕκδότης as really bad Greek, or if you prefer, a really bad greek translation (I supose originated from a machine translation, but certainly not from an advanced speaker of the language). Εκδότης in greek, doesn't mean what you say. Εκδότης primarly means the Publisher and thus Εκδοση is the publication and also version. Making and edit is Επεξεργασία and thus the person or the tool that helps this process is an Επεξεργαστής. Εκδότης doesn't even has this meaning in greek! Furthermore greek language has genders and Οπτική is feminine while in Greek Εκδοτης is masculine, a gender conflict in greek is by definition bad greek, sounding imediately clumsy and foreign to the language. I do not mean to be rude or bad to you, and really value and appreciate your contributions, so my intention is not to judge you or to blame you for the term, I'm just asking you not to use it. If you do not trust me feel free to consult a greek speaking wiki like el.wikipedia @ local Village pump or Agora. Thank you.—Ah3kal (talk) 08:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Did you know that I was the one that prepared the page for translation with help of others? You started translating it while it was not fully ready. After that I have prepared all other languages by just prefilling a few fields to make the links. But my intent was certainly not to provide full translations; you made that edit while the page was still not announced. And I have not reverted your work, I don't care much as long as these are coherently setup and linked. I've made lots of small cleanups to that page to make sure it would be translatable in various languages (including RTL languages, or fixing how it was tagged, which does not mean that I had forced any prefererence for the target language). Still you shuld know that "VisualEditor" is not a trademark, and it is made to be translatable (and notably to other scripts when it is not Latin). It is possibly a keyword only for developers that work in English only, but that tool does not focus developers and is intended for ALL Wikimedia users, in their own natural language (they should not have to type Latin text on their non-Latin keyboard, and should immediately understand the term. As far as I know "VisualTerm" is extrmeely new and specific to Wikimedia: it is a technical "jargon" that should be translated (much more easily than translating "Wikipedia" which is a product name and a trademark to protect). The intent of the VisualEditor is clearly to focus on final users. Let's not obscure them what it means. Most languages have translated theis term ! And VisualEditor is certainly not used in Greek or its very recent usage is still not an attested usage. You shoudl think about it when its deployment in Greek Wikiepdia is still extrelemy recent (and with still lot of work to do). Doin't trust only those few admins that have betatested it and discussed it in English talk pages !

Soon you'll see Greek Wikipedia users complaining about your personal choice to keep the English term and require a new non-existent neologism in Greek; be careful about technology terms, they are not very resistant to time (technologies evolve all the time, they just survive a few years, look at the ongoing discussion about terms used in the recent Phabricator, you'll see that all these new terms have perturbed users by renaming common functionalities and obscuring their use by more people). This gives frustration when basic concepts that are perfectly describable in natural language are given a new strange, and unneeded, anglicism. There are too many jargon words in computing that people complain all the time, especially when they are not native English speakers (or near-native speakers). This has the effect of repulsing people from using these tools or talking about it, as they feel themselves "out of the circle" of "initiated" people. Please consider this to keep the Wikimedia projects really open to your language. verdy_p (talk) 06:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear Friend, as I allready said, my intention was neither to judge you nor to blame you nor to be mean at you nor to offend you. When I said I apreciate your contributions I really ment it, and I really think you do great job. Mentioning a mistake or a bad choice does not change all the good things you do nor the great value of your contributions. Furthermore I agree with most of the things you say above! VisualEditor will soon be a substantial tool for all wikipedias and as such it must have a proper name in each of these. I hesitate to take the decision of its translation alone. I would think and propose ΟπτικόςΕπεξεργαστής, but I would prefer some feedback from the el.communities. Noting that the choice ΟπτικήΕκδοτης is really bad does not mean I will fight for it to be in English for ever, but an English tech term is better than a translation that has no meaning in greek. To prove you that I really I agree with you, I'll propose today in el.wiki the translation ΟπτικόςΕπεξεργαστής and get feedback, and when this is done, I 'll also translate the logo and every instance of it here. The new terms are too many and we must translate them with care in order to stay in use. Thank you and see you. —Ah3kal (talk) 08:52, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Opened a discussion here —Ah3kal (talk) 08:59, 24 December 2014 (UTC)